The U.S. should just have completely open borders

[lysander 14]

We may as well totally get rid of the visa system, and allow everyone to come here on a passport and stay indefinitely.

 

Think of the advantages this would have compared to, say, the current fiancee visa system. We wouldn't have to worry about foreigners' pretending to love U.S. citizens so that they can get a visa. They would have no need to engage in deceit in order to come here, and so a lot of heartbreak, divorce, and related court battles would be eliminated.

 

At the same time, those who have good intentions would not have to deal with such a prolonged wait before coming here. Also, they would not have to worry so much about being abused or exploited due to their vulnerable situation; they could bring their whole family over and have that social support, so issues such as being battered or otherwise controlled by a U.S. citizen spouse, or having their passport taken away and forced into prostitution by some pimp, would be mitigated. Those who are currently unable to get a visa also would not have to pay a bunch of money to some mule to bring them across the border in unsafe conditions.

 

Open borders would benefit U.S. citizens as well because they would be at less risk of being accused of abusing immigrants when the circumstances would not make it as plausible that they acted that way, and when there would be less incentive for immigrants to make such claims for an immigration benefit. The current system exposes U.S. citizen sponsors to a lot of legal liability and makes them spend a lot of time and money dealing with red tape without any guarantee of getting the desired result. Immigration fraud will go down to zero when there's nothing to be fraudulent about in order to cross the border.

 

Public charge concerns could be eliminated by simply having a less generous welfare system. Allowing the immigrant's entire family to come over could help with that, by giving them a larger base of support in case they fall into poverty and need help. Also, granting blanket authorization to all immigrants to work would allow them to be productive immediately upon arrival.

 

Most of the objections people have to mass immigration could be dealt with through enforcement of existing laws. For example, people living 25 to a house could be remedied through stricter enforcement of local ordinances about maximum occupancies. Also, when illegal immigrants are given legal status here, they can begin paying taxes and thereby supporting social services such as hospitals and schools, making them less of a burden on the cities and states in which they live. If, despite all that help, they still can't survive here, they can always go back to their home country, where the costs of living are lower. Poverty, although unpleasant, should not be a reason for anyone to starve in a world where farmers have so much excess produce that they have to send it to the third world just to prevent it from going to waste.

 

Some might say, there are some immigrants who don't assimilate into American culture; but that doesn't really matter, since they tend to stay in their own enclaves anyway, given that the same insularity that makes them not want to learn our culture also makes them want to spend their time hanging out among their own. Some might say, immigrants will change American politics, but historically that issue was dealt with pretty effectively by simply not having a universal franchise; we could always go back to the old laws restricting voting rights to people meeting certain qualifications.

 

The more people a country has, the stronger its economy and therefore its military is. Even if, on paper, wages seem to go down because of an influx of immigrants willing to work for less, real wages are not really affected that much because the savings to the company in labor costs are passed on to consumers, so their dollars go further even if they're not getting paid as much. Plus, economies of scale from having more customers and workers allow businesses to operate more efficiently.

 

Some might say, immigrants will bring disease and terrorism, but those concerns are pretty overblown. Covid, for example, does not cause as serious of an illness as people have claimed, and the odds of any given person's getting attacked by a terrorist are pretty low, even in countries that have a lot of Arabs. 9/11 could have been prevented by having more secure cockpit doors or allowing pilots to be armed. Probably a lot of Islamist terrorism could be prevented too by not having a U.S. foreign policy that involves arming and training terrorists like Osama bin Laden and then provoking them to attack us by meddling in the affairs of the Arab world.

 

I think I've demolished all the arguments for why we need a visa system; does anyone have a rebuttal?

[JFH 12,189]

But what quality of life would there be? In 2017 over 22 million people applied for the diversity visa lottery. Imagine if all 22 million had arrived here with your “open border” policy. Where would they live? Where would they work? Already we have more than enough unemployed and homeless people here. We don’t need to add to those statistics. How large would school class sizes need to be? Could the infrastructure cope with those numbers? Hospitals? Roads? Food production? 
 

It would also open the door for terrorists to come in. Public health would be a concern if people were arriving having not been vaccinated or tested for things like TB. This country would end up poorer than the places they all left to come here for a “better life”. 
 

All other countries have policies in place to control immigration. Why should the US be any different? 

Edited July 19, 2020 by JFH

[Lemonslice 4,570]

 

From Covid, to prostitution, to xenophobia, with a stop on how to stop conflicts in the Middle East. You've covered it all, and more.

 

15 minutes ago, lysander said:

We may as well totally get rid of the visa system, and allow everyone to come here on a passport and stay indefinitely.

 

Think of the advantages this would have compared to, say, the current fiancee visa system. We wouldn't have to worry about foreigners' pretending to love U.S. citizens so that they can get a visa. They would have no need to engage in deceit in order to come here, and so a lot of heartbreak, divorce, and related court battles would be eliminated.

 

At the same time, those who have good intentions would not have to deal with such a prolonged wait before coming here. Also, they would not have to worry so much about being abused or exploited due to their vulnerable situation; they could bring their whole family over and have that social support, so issues such as being battered or otherwise controlled by a U.S. citizen spouse, or having their passport taken away and forced into prostitution by some pimp, would be mitigated. Those who are currently unable to get a visa also would not have to pay a bunch of money to some mule to bring them across the border in unsafe conditions.

 

Open borders would benefit U.S. citizens as well because they would be at less risk of being accused of abusing immigrants when the circumstances would not make it as plausible that they acted that way, and when there would be less incentive for immigrants to make such claims for an immigration benefit. The current system exposes U.S. citizen sponsors to a lot of legal liability and makes them spend a lot of time and money dealing with red tape without any guarantee of getting the desired result. Immigration fraud will go down to zero when there's nothing to be fraudulent about in order to cross the border.

 

Public charge concerns could be eliminated by simply having a less generous welfare system. Allowing the immigrant's entire family to come over could help with that, by giving them a larger base of support in case they fall into poverty and need help. Also, granting blanket authorization to all immigrants to work would allow them to be productive immediately upon arrival.

 

Most of the objections people have to mass immigration could be dealt with through enforcement of existing laws. For example, people living 25 to a house could be remedied through stricter enforcement of local ordinances about maximum occupancies. Also, when illegal immigrants are given legal status here, they can begin paying taxes and thereby supporting social services such as hospitals and schools, making them less of a burden on the cities and states in which they live. If, despite all that help, they still can't survive here, they can always go back to their home country, where the costs of living are lower. Poverty, although unpleasant, should not be a reason for anyone to starve in a world where farmers have so much excess produce that they have to send it to the third world just to prevent it from going to waste.

 

Some might say, there are some immigrants who don't assimilate into American culture; but that doesn't really matter, since they tend to stay in their own enclaves anyway, given that the same insularity that makes them not want to learn our culture also makes them want to spend their time hanging out among their own. Some might say, immigrants will change American politics, but historically that issue was dealt with pretty effectively by simply not having a universal franchise; we could always go back to the old laws restricting voting rights to people meeting certain qualifications.

 

The more people a country has, the stronger its economy and therefore its military is. Even if, on paper, wages seem to go down because of an influx of immigrants willing to work for less, real wages are not really affected that much because the savings to the company in labor costs are passed on to consumers, so their dollars go further even if they're not getting paid as much. Plus, economies of scale from having more customers and workers allow businesses to operate more efficiently.

 

Some might say, immigrants will bring disease and terrorism, but those concerns are pretty overblown. Covid, for example, does not cause as serious of an illness as people have claimed, and the odds of any given person's getting attacked by a terrorist are pretty low, even in countries that have a lot of Arabs. 9/11 could have been prevented by having more secure cockpit doors or allowing pilots to be armed. Probably a lot of Islamist terrorism could be prevented too by not having a U.S. foreign policy that involves arming and training terrorists like Osama bin Laden and then provoking them to attack us by meddling in the affairs of the Arab world.

 

I think I've demolished all the arguments for why we need a visa system; does anyone have a rebuttal?

 

[Boiler 43,630]

When you think of the millions actually billions living in squalor in the rest of the world who would benefit from social housing, benefits etc it is a difficult to argue against it

 

Just think of the boost to the construction industry in building all that housing

 

And all those who are sick and can not access care in their home countries.

[Crazy Cat 39,414]

3 hours ago, lysander said:

I think I've demolished all the arguments for why we need a visa system; does anyone have a rebuttal?

Contrary to the popular belief of some, the US cannot feed, house, and provide medical care for anyone who crosses the border.....nor should we be required to.

---Lucky Cat out

Edited July 20, 2020 by Lucky Cat

[JFH 12,189]

Also it’s not the responsibility of the government or the rest of the population to protect you from being “romance scammed” by a green card hunter. Are you seriously suggesting we should fund social housing projects to house every poor person in the world just so that you don’t have to contemplate whether your fiancé is in it for the right reasons? How much more tax are you willing to part with for this? How much of our open spaces are you prepared to lose for this? How long do you want to wait to be able to see a doctor for this? How many food shortages are you prepared to accept for this? 
 

Whatever you’re drinking or smoking, I’d recommend you put it down before you get too carried away. 

[Crazy Cat 39,414]

The US is an extremely generous country, but there are limits.

[JFH 12,189]

I missed the part about not letting them vote and keeping them in enclaves. Sounds like modern day slavery to me. What’s the point of living in a country, working and paying tax there but never being able to have your say in how things are run? Your forefathers here went to war over that. 

[Nat&Amy 623]

This post has to be one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

[TBoneTX 43,328]

Thread is moved from General Immigration Discussion to the Current Events & Hot Social Topics forum.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

A nation is not a nation without borders for the same reason your home is not a home without borders.

 

Americans have the right to decide who lives in the US, what arrangements they have with other countries (e.g. free flowing immigrant arrangements between parties), foreigners of a different nationality do not dictate this, just like people outside your home do not just decide on their own to live in your house without your permission, create their own enclaves, etc, it wouldn't be tolerated. The same applies here. Boundaries are necessary for freedom. Inside the boundaries of your home, you set who you want, the criteria, and you feel safe and secure. Others are obligated to respect that. If they don't, they clearly don't (and won't) respect you -- they are dangerous. So the idea that open borders is a good idea for a nation invites precisely that.. people who won't respect you, your laws, your customs, your culture. It's an awful idea. We see enough of that sort of nonsense even without open borders.

 

The "open borders" concept, whether in the home, or as a nation, is a mythological idea, it doesn't exist anywhere. It's as mythological as the OP's idea that they demolished anything.

[laylalex 7,253]

3 hours ago, JFH said:

Also it’s not the responsibility of the government or the rest of the population to protect you from being “romance scammed” by a green card hunter. Are you seriously suggesting we should fund social housing projects to house every poor person in the world just so that you don’t have to contemplate whether your fiancé is in it for the right reasons?

I think you nailed it -- I just read his posting history and it looks like he believes he was treated poorly by a system that allowed his (presumably now ex-)wife to file for ROC without him. 

 

I'm not exactly the most conservative person in the universe but I understand the value of there being gatekeepers for both immigrant and non-immigrant visas. I also understand our system is completely broken and incentivizes some questionable decisions (getting married too soon is one, what Boiler calls the VWP Express is another) and some downright terrible ones (the interplay between our "need" for cheap labor and the draw of a country that will hire people, no questions asked, about their right to work, and how these reinforce each other). Opening up our borders doesn't fix what's broken. Some very difficult choices might.

[Cyberfx1024 7,978]

4 hours ago, lysander said:

We may as well totally get rid of the visa system, and allow everyone to come here on a passport and stay indefinitely.

 

Think of the advantages this would have compared to, say, the current fiancee visa system. We wouldn't have to worry about foreigners' pretending to love U.S. citizens so that they can get a visa. They would have no need to engage in deceit in order to come here, and so a lot of heartbreak, divorce, and related court battles would be eliminated.

 

At the same time, those who have good intentions would not have to deal with such a prolonged wait before coming here. Also, they would not have to worry so much about being abused or exploited due to their vulnerable situation; they could bring their whole family over and have that social support, so issues such as being battered or otherwise controlled by a U.S. citizen spouse, or having their passport taken away and forced into prostitution by some pimp, would be mitigated. Those who are currently unable to get a visa also would not have to pay a bunch of money to some mule to bring them across the border in unsafe conditions.

 

Open borders would benefit U.S. citizens as well because they would be at less risk of being accused of abusing immigrants when the circumstances would not make it as plausible that they acted that way, and when there would be less incentive for immigrants to make such claims for an immigration benefit. The current system exposes U.S. citizen sponsors to a lot of legal liability and makes them spend a lot of time and money dealing with red tape without any guarantee of getting the desired result. Immigration fraud will go down to zero when there's nothing to be fraudulent about in order to cross the border.

 

Public charge concerns could be eliminated by simply having a less generous welfare system. Allowing the immigrant's entire family to come over could help with that, by giving them a larger base of support in case they fall into poverty and need help. Also, granting blanket authorization to all immigrants to work would allow them to be productive immediately upon arrival.

 

Most of the objections people have to mass immigration could be dealt with through enforcement of existing laws. For example, people living 25 to a house could be remedied through stricter enforcement of local ordinances about maximum occupancies. Also, when illegal immigrants are given legal status here, they can begin paying taxes and thereby supporting social services such as hospitals and schools, making them less of a burden on the cities and states in which they live. If, despite all that help, they still can't survive here, they can always go back to their home country, where the costs of living are lower. Poverty, although unpleasant, should not be a reason for anyone to starve in a world where farmers have so much excess produce that they have to send it to the third world just to prevent it from going to waste.

 

Some might say, there are some immigrants who don't assimilate into American culture; but that doesn't really matter, since they tend to stay in their own enclaves anyway, given that the same insularity that makes them not want to learn our culture also makes them want to spend their time hanging out among their own. Some might say, immigrants will change American politics, but historically that issue was dealt with pretty effectively by simply not having a universal franchise; we could always go back to the old laws restricting voting rights to people meeting certain qualifications.

 

The more people a country has, the stronger its economy and therefore its military is. Even if, on paper, wages seem to go down because of an influx of immigrants willing to work for less, real wages are not really affected that much because the savings to the company in labor costs are passed on to consumers, so their dollars go further even if they're not getting paid as much. Plus, economies of scale from having more customers and workers allow businesses to operate more efficiently.

 

Some might say, immigrants will bring disease and terrorism, but those concerns are pretty overblown. Covid, for example, does not cause as serious of an illness as people have claimed, and the odds of any given person's getting attacked by a terrorist are pretty low, even in countries that have a lot of Arabs. 9/11 could have been prevented by having more secure cockpit doors or allowing pilots to be armed. Probably a lot of Islamist terrorism could be prevented too by not having a U.S. foreign policy that involves arming and training terrorists like Osama bin Laden and then provoking them to attack us by meddling in the affairs of the Arab world.

 

I think I've demolished all the arguments for why we need a visa system; does anyone have a rebuttal?

What's up man it's been a long time since you came on. How are you doing btw?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

5 hours ago, lysander said:

The more people a country has, the stronger its economy and therefore its military is. Even if, on paper, wages seem to go down because of an influx of immigrants willing to work for less, real wages are not really affected that much because the savings to the company in labor costs are passed on to consumers, so their dollars go further even if they're not getting paid as much. Plus, economies of scale from having more customers and workers allow businesses to operate more efficiently.

 

I think I've demolished all the arguments for why we need a visa system; does anyone have a rebuttal?

The only thing you even came close to demolishing is our country with this wack idea.

 

The country would only be weaker as we struggle to support an influx of people that would tax our communities, infrastructure, and public assistance when said people are unable to provide for themselves.

 

For having a Pinay Asawa, I award you +5 points.  For trying to cripple our country, I take away 15.  

Edited July 20, 2020 by Voice of Reason

[Cyberfx1024 7,978]

10 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

The only thing you even came close to demolishing is our country with this wack idea.

 

The country would only be weaker as we struggle to support an influx of people that would tax our communities, infrastructure, and public assistance when said people are unable to provide for themselves.

 

For having a Pinay Asawa, I award you +5 points.  For trying to cripple our country, I take away 15.  

They divorced some time ago actually. He has quite a few threads on here about it