So lockdowns were not needed after all?

[lucardo3 220]

Lockdown was definitely needed. Just look at 1918 Spanish Flu when people did not follow lock down and mask rules, and disease returned even deadlier. Pandemics usually show similar path and it is people itself who decide which way it turns into.

[JFH 12,189]

49 minutes ago, Nat&Amy said:

I don't really think comparing a global pandemic to alcohol and tobacco makes sense. Two completely different stories. I can't choose whether or not I get covid-19 if I work in a hospital, for example, and have insufficient protection gear. Or if I have a pre-existing condition and live with someone that doesn't take care of themselves. I can still choose not to drink, and not to consume tobacco products. 

 

So yeah, not quite the same thing there.

 

And the fact American economy is going downhill can be explained by many things, not only the virus. Just look at the rest of the world and see how the way they manage themselves has determined how much of a fall they are going to take. Sweden, for one, has chosen against lockdowns and guess what? Their economy is going south anyways. 

 

If anything, it was our lack of appropriate and quick preventative care that put us in the situation we are today, and not an abundance of it.

I’m sorry you have to work in a hospital without sufficient protective gear. That shouldn’t be happening in the richest country in the world, pandemic or no pandemic. We all know that our providers charge us the highest prices for medical care in the world so it can’t be due to lack of money. But I don’t see how stopping me from working will help your situation? 
 

 

[laylalex 7,249]

14 hours ago, JonSeattle said:

"the WHO says that while asymptomatic spread can occur, it is “very rare.” "

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html?fbclid=IwAR3LxxUNLdxCU9T7SoPFinCzZYLg-yk_hiGO0JtqDd9FEE5uQllo7k5KD80

 

All we had go do was tell people who are sick to stay home. No masks needed.

 

This has been walked back. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/09/who-scrambles-to-clarify-comments-on-asymptomatic-coronavirus-spread-much-is-still-unknown.html

 

I can't see this thread going anywhere good or useful. 

[geowrian 22,335]

5 minutes ago, JFH said:

I don’t doubt that doctors and other medical experts also gave that advice. But I do believe they were politically motivated.

That seems like a huge stretch to me. ER and ICU staff are not politicians.

 

5 minutes ago, JFH said:

And people have the choice to stay home if they wish, wear masks if they wish, sign up for contact tracing if they wish. Just as we make our choices with alcohol and tobacco, we should make our own choices on this. The state should not be mandating these things.

That's like saying people should be able to drink and drive if they wish. Don't want to take the risk driving with a bunch of drunk drivers? Stay off the road.

 

This is a public health issue. it impacts people other than the one that makes the decision to take risks.

 

5 minutes ago, JFH said:

This is a subject that is very close to my heart as I have lost almost all my income because of it (I was offered a lay-off or to keep my job but with a 65% pay cut), my husband has cancer and does not work. We could have lost our home. With what it has cost the county, it would have been far more effective to isolate those most at risk and look after the most vulnerable whilst the rest of us continue to go to work and feed our families, pay our bills, etc. 

I'm sorry that you have gone through such hardships.

At the same time, it's pitting the loss of property against the loss of lives.

I try to take personal impacts out of the consideration. It's very possible that one person may be willing to take the risk to save their financial well-being, but would have an entirely different feeling if they did actually lose somebody due to the virus. Good policy decisions are not made based on one's personal circumstances.

 

"Isolate those most at risk" -> this has never worked out well. This is a recipe for disaster. If there is an infection there - which is likely given how hard senior homes have been hit by this - then this effectively becomes a death camp.

I would also point out the conflict between claiming one should be able to make their own choices about this but also that the government should isolate people based on risk.

And if not government-mandated, that has zero chance of being effective...who would volunteer as tribute? I am at high risk and no way would I do it, nor would I encourage my parents to do so.

[JonSeattle 201]

7 minutes ago, laylalex said:

This has been walked back. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/09/who-scrambles-to-clarify-comments-on-asymptomatic-coronavirus-spread-much-is-still-unknown.html

 

I can't see this thread going anywhere good or useful. 

The only walking back mentioned in that article was a sentence plopped on the top of the article without anything to back it up. Take that paragraph away, and this is what the article says:

 

"“If journalists and the public think we’re straying away from evidence, then fine,” he said. That’s what this is for. If you think there isn’t a basis for what we’re saying then let’s have that debate one-on-one. ”"

 

[Sparkle Sparkle 913]

I think the lockdown did us alot of good... I just wish they made face mask compulsory when they instigated the lockdown... No doubt it would have helped slow it down good. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Sparkle Sparkle

[vincentlina 74]

15 hours ago, JonSeattle said:

"the WHO says that while asymptomatic spread can occur, it is “very rare.” "

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html?fbclid=IwAR3LxxUNLdxCU9T7SoPFinCzZYLg-yk_hiGO0JtqDd9FEE5uQllo7k5KD80

 

All we had go do was tell people who are sick to stay home. No masks needed.

 

This is a confusing statement from WHO without understanding the nuances of the discussion. According to Dr. Ashish Jah, Director of Harvard Global Health Institute, the WHO was referring to the difference between "asymtomatic" and "prsymtomatic" people.

 

You can view it here for yourself (Title: Doctor cautions 'nothing has changed' on wearing masks): https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe

[laylalex 7,249]

8 minutes ago, vincentlina said:

This is a confusing statement from WHO without understanding the nuances of the discussion. According to Dr. Ashish Jah, Director of Harvard Global Health Institute, the WHO was referring to the difference between "asymtomatic" and "prsymtomatic" people.

 

You can view it here for yourself (Title: Doctor cautions 'nothing has changed' on wearing masks): https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe

Thank you. Nothing has changed at all. The doctor says she misspoke. The reality is we still don't know so much about the virus and who is more likely to spread it.

 

A friend of the family died of COVID19 a few weeks ago. She wasn't old (mid 40s), was in good health before with her only risk factor being asthma. She was gone in under a week from exhibiting symptoms. No one knows how she was infected. Her husband and child are devastated. I do not have time for deniers and those who seek to open everything up now and tear off their masks at the same time. 

 

Wear a mask, please, if you must leave your home. 

[Cody&Razely 134]

15 hours ago, JonSeattle said:

"the WHO says that while asymptomatic spread can occur, it is “very rare.” "

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html?fbclid=IwAR3LxxUNLdxCU9T7SoPFinCzZYLg-yk_hiGO0JtqDd9FEE5uQllo7k5KD80

 

All we had go do was tell people who are sick to stay home. No masks needed.

 

lol, awesome ...... Yeah, probably, like every other known situation involving sick people, like, ever lol. Have the flu? yes - stay at home; have the cold? yes - stay at home. Have stupid-19? no? oh stay at home anyways lol

[AstoriaAOS 33]

1 hour ago, JFH said:

I’m sorry you have to work in a hospital without sufficient protective gear. That shouldn’t be happening in the richest country in the world, pandemic or no pandemic. We all know that our providers charge us the highest prices for medical care in the world so it can’t be due to lack of money. But I don’t see how stopping me from working will help your situation? 

 

I wanted to make a couple of comments here. I’m really sorry that the pandemic and lockdown has put you in a really difficult financial situation. I think it is unacceptable.

 

However, I think the individual impact that this lockdown has had is a reflection of a broken system that, at its core, simply does not care for the people who work in it. The US lacks the safety nets that could have helped soften the blow, from proper (i.e., universal) healthcare to a LIVABLE minimum wage and worker’s rights. While the actions from Congress may have helped a little, it is clear to me that their steps are wildly inadequate.

 

And on your question of how stopping people from working will help hospitals: I live in NYC and am training to become a healthcare professional. Hospitals here have been overwhelmed, and providers have been overworked, underprotected, and underpaid.

 

Maybe you’ve heard of “flattening the curve,” maybe you haven’t. One major point of the lockdown was to ensure that hospitals aren’t overwhelmed. Once they are, it’s not just the COVID patients who suffer. People who were in car accidents, who had a stroke, who had a heart attack, or who need surgeries will also be denied access. You mentioned that your husband has cancer, and I’m really sorry that that’s something you’re going through. Have you given any thought to what would happen if he needed medical attention but the hospitals are full? I think this is also an important aspect to keep in consideration.

Edited June 9, 2020 by AstoriaAOS

[NikLR 13,220]

Whatever was done would never be good enough.  If people hadnt stayed home and millions had died, we wouldnt have had enough measures.  Because that didnt happen now the measures were too much. Whatever. 

[dentsflogged 352]

15 hours ago, James120383 said:

WHO said they had it under control in China . Hmmm

This.  

I wouldn't believe a single thing that WHO says - they said the outbreak in China was under control. They also said that (per information from China) that human to human transmission wasn't a threat. 

Anything the WHO says should be treated as CCP propaganda until it is confirmed by a study performed by a third party. 

[vincentlina 74]

15 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Thank you. Nothing has changed at all. The doctor says she misspoke. The reality is we still don't know so much about the virus and who is more likely to spread it.

 

A friend of the family died of COVID19 a few weeks ago. She wasn't old (mid 40s), was in good health before with her only risk factor being asthma. She was gone in under a week from exhibiting symptoms. No one knows how she was infected. Her husband and child are devastated. I do not have time for deniers and those who seek to open everything up now and tear off their masks at the same time. 

 

Wear a mask, please, if you must leave your home. 

Agree 100 percent. It's infuriating that so many people are so selfish and only think of themselves. Sometimes, I can understand why China has had such a heavy-handed approach to the virus in its country and simply locking people up in their own homes or arresting them when they violate stay at home orders. I swear a large swath of the South needs to be treated this way. Can you even imagine there are some businesses that have been actively rejecting customers for wearing a mask? How lunatic!

 

Well, granted in some instances, I can still see on the other side why some are understandably forced to stay home because s omany people's basic needs are not being addressed (like the way the Chinese government supplied food and people's other basic needs while being locked down). Sadly, if we had a competent Administration in the WH, perhaps these issues could have been addressed more efficiently (let alone reaching pandemic level here in the US).

 

[AstoriaAOS 33]

1 hour ago, JFH said:

I’m sorry you have to work in a hospital without sufficient protective gear. That shouldn’t be happening in the richest country in the world, pandemic or no pandemic. We all know that our providers charge us the highest prices for medical care in the world so it can’t be due to lack of money. But I don’t see how stopping me from working will help your situation? 

 

Oh, I also wanted to add:

 

I know it’s really hard to keep perspective about sacrificing personal liberties for the sake of the communal good, especially when these sacrifices have been unbearable. But what does it tell you about a system when billionaires have reaped more than $400,000,000,000 throughout this crisis while people like you and me and millions of others are struggling to make ends meet?

 

I just think there are larger systemic issues to also keep in mind. We are going through hard times, and I wish things work out for you.

[JonSeattle 201]

25 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Thank you. Nothing has changed at all. The doctor says she misspoke. The reality is we still don't know so much about the virus and who is more likely to spread it.

 

A friend of the family died of COVID19 a few weeks ago. She wasn't old (mid 40s), was in good health before with her only risk factor being asthma. She was gone in under a week from exhibiting symptoms. No one knows how she was infected. Her husband and child are devastated. I do not have time for deniers and those who seek to open everything up now and tear off their masks at the same time. 

 

Wear a mask, please, if you must leave your home. 

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. Nevertheless, what we can learn from her death is that the current approach didn't work in her case at least, so let's use all available information to improve our response. According to this latest evidence from WHO, which is essentially what the CDC was saying back in March, we can focus on people who are showing symptoms, however slight they may be. Perhaps people would be more receptive to a message to check their temperature daily or more rather than stay home or wear masks even when they feel perfectly fine. If that ends up being a more effective way to stop the virus, then that is very important news.