Jump to content
Boiler

Men now avoid women at work – another sign we're being punished for #MeToo

207 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/29/men-women-workplace-study-harassment-harvard-metoo

 

Quite interesting, not in the stating the obvious about how people react to situations, nothing much has changed there.

 

However her conclusion, I believe she identifies as a she, is so far from reality.

 

Quote

The answer to that question, perhaps, is that a lot of men aren’t so much afraid of being accused of anything as they are they are angry that #MeToo ever happened. They’re angry that they’ve been made to think about their behavior, made to interrogate power dynamics they always took for granted, and they are punishing women for it by refusing to interact with them.

No doubt you can find somebody who is angry, but I would anticipate that they are a minority, the rest are just taking a logical reaction.

 

I also wonder about the numbers, what I do now this no longer really applies, but if I had been in the Corporate area as I used to be I would probably have said the correct response to a survey, how can you not be aware and take precautions in reality. 


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, I am not really angry that the #MeToo movement happened, but I do take extra precaution in the office accordingly. 


Visa Received : 2014-04-04 (K1 - see timeline for details)

US Entry : 2014-09-12

POE: Detroit

Marriage : 2014-09-27

I-765 Approved: 2015-01-09

I-485 Interview: 2015-03-11

I-485 Approved: 2015-03-13

Green Card Received: 2015-03-24 Yeah!!!

I-751 ROC Submitted: 2016-12-20

I-751 NOA Received:  2016-12-29

I-751 Biometrics Appt.:  2017-01-26

I-751 Interview:  2018-04-10

I-751 Approved:  2018-05-04

N400 Filed:  2018-01-13

N400 Biometrics:  2018-02-22

N400 Interview:  2018-04-10

N400 Approved:  2018-04-10

Oath Ceremony:  2018-06-11 - DONE!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I agree, I am not really angry that the #MeToo movement happened, but I do take extra precaution in the office accordingly. 

How would you have answered that survey?


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Boiler said:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/29/men-women-workplace-study-harassment-harvard-metoo

Quite interesting, not in the stating the obvious about how people react to situations, nothing much has changed there.

However her conclusion, I believe she identifies as a she, is so far from reality.

No doubt you can find somebody who is angry, but I would anticipate that they are a minority, the rest are just taking a logical reaction.

I also wonder about the numbers, what I do now this no longer really applies, but if I had been in the Corporate area as I used to be I would probably have said the correct response to a survey, how can you not be aware and take precautions in reality. 

I just came here to say that I get #metoo every day at work by the women in my office. I have had women tell me that "You have some big feet" and giving a face to each other. I have had women talking about our deputy director and how big her booty is "I want to know how she puts on her clothes because you can rest a cup on her butt". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

I just came here to say that I get #metoo every day at work by the women in my office. I have had women tell me that "You have some big feet" and giving a face to each other. I have had women talking about our deputy director and how big her booty is "I want to know how she puts on her clothes because you can rest a cup on her butt". 

Believe that is OK.


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Boiler said:

How would you have answered that survey?

Overall, I guess the one I relate to the most is having one-on-one interactions with women and in particular women I don't really know.


Visa Received : 2014-04-04 (K1 - see timeline for details)

US Entry : 2014-09-12

POE: Detroit

Marriage : 2014-09-27

I-765 Approved: 2015-01-09

I-485 Interview: 2015-03-11

I-485 Approved: 2015-03-13

Green Card Received: 2015-03-24 Yeah!!!

I-751 ROC Submitted: 2016-12-20

I-751 NOA Received:  2016-12-29

I-751 Biometrics Appt.:  2017-01-26

I-751 Interview:  2018-04-10

I-751 Approved:  2018-05-04

N400 Filed:  2018-01-13

N400 Biometrics:  2018-02-22

N400 Interview:  2018-04-10

N400 Approved:  2018-04-10

Oath Ceremony:  2018-06-11 - DONE!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, this is the crux of it though:

Quote

 

What’s really interesting about this study, however, is that it thoroughly debunks the argument that men are confused about what constitutes unacceptable behavior. The very first thing researchers did was look at 19 behaviours (emailing sexual jokes to a subordinate, for example) and get people to classify it as harassment or not. Surprise, surprise, both genders basically agreed on what harassment entails.

 

Men and women both know what is harassment and what isn't. There's a really good rule of thumb my mom taught me years ago which I'm sure everyone's familiar with: don't be an ###hole. The grey areas aren't so very grey. Women know the difference between a compliment that's neutral ("that dress suits you") and one that's not ("you look hot"). Why do men say and do stupid, sexist stuff in the office? Because historically they were able to. Even my sainted fiance needed a little schooling -- it's not cool to tell stupid jokes about women, like, oh look there's Tipex (white out) on the screen. The blonde must've been trying to use the computer again. I mean, that's a dumb joke to begin with, and it's sexist. (And I'm a strawberry blonde, so I took it personally. Maybe.) He means well, but he's worked in primarily male spaces most of his adult life (working on the quant side in finance will do that to you) where sexist behavior MUCH worse than dumb blonde jokes goes on. He wants to be an ally, or at least not a jerk, to the women in his department. One way he can do this is by asking himself what he would think if someone said things like that to me, and another is so simple: treat women as people, because they ARE people. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

There is someone I know who is always coming up with Blonde Jokes, she uses them to excuse her behaviour.

 

And if there is one thing I am absolutely certain of there is no line, how can there be when the search for victimhood needs it to constantly progress. 

 

If it was so simple then why not just publish a guide and that would be it.

 

If somebody wants to find something offensive then there is very little that can not be found offensive and that has been demonstrated time after time after time.

 

It is unreasonable to expect everybody to have a PhD in Gender Studies and to keep current. Even here the person who wrote this article is a professional activist and still misunderstood the motivations that the survey produced. Obviously did not ask any any men. Sort of surprised she did not comment on the increase in Women taking such action, she mentions it.

 

I keep on wondering what they expected.

 

Anyway what really attracted me to this one was the inability to empathise, seemed completely oblivious to the other point of view, just a few minutes thought looking at it from the other perspective would answer the question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Boiler

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost every corporation has a guide and workshops -

 

The whole #metoo movement happened because a top executive at a film studio was raping women (something like 60+) and turning up to "meetings" in a bathrobe. It's not hard to figure out that isn't acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Boiler said:

There is someone I know who is always coming up with Blonde Jokes, she uses them to excuse her behaviour.

 

And if there is one thing I am absolutely certain of there is no line, how can there be when the search for victimhood needs it to constantly progress. 

 

If it was so simple then why not just publish a guide and that would be it.

 

If somebody wants to find something offensive then there is very little that can not be found offensive and that has been demonstrated time after time after time.

 

It is unreasonable to expect everybody to have a PhD in Gender Studies and to keep current. Even here the person who wrote this article is a professional activist and still misunderstood the motivations that the survey produced. Obviously did not ask any any men. Sort of surprised she did not comment on the increase in Women taking such action, she mentions it.

 

I keep on wondering what they expected.

 

Anyway what really attracted me to this one was the inability to empathise, seemed completely oblivious to the other point of view, just a few minutes thought looking at it from the other perspective would answer the question.

No one has to have a PhD in Gender Studies. All that's required is the ability to treat women as equals, which they are. And what sort of empathy needs to be extended to men who are behaving in ways that make offensive comments, beyond telling them their behavior is unacceptable? Some conduct, like off color jokes or having a desktop calendar of a bikini model, can be addressed without escalating it excessively. People of both sexes should feel like work is a place where they do not have to risk being objectified, or being subjected to expectations that a woman (or a man) should behave in a certain, socially acceptable way. Why is this so hard for men to understand? It is not about seeking victimhood, it's about seeking dignity in a place that is basically their second home. 

 

And just because one woman you know comes up with dumb blonde jokes to apply to herself, doesn't mean that suddenly all blonde women are going to find them acceptable. Really, why do I even have to type that? 😕 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are missing the point, anybody who has been around for very long has come across weird situations, and nobody is saying all people fall into one category but it only takes one. I do not wear a seat belt because I think all the other Drivers are out there to get me.

 

People react to the risks they are exposed to. All it takes is an accusation, no evidence needed. Even if nothing is proved the consequences can be very significant.

 

No different to many other areas of life. Work usually is not life, most people tend to screen people they interact with outside of work.

 


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, laylalex said:

There's a really good rule of thumb my mom taught me years ago which I'm sure everyone's familiar with: don't be an ###hole.

Basically this. I've been around long enough (smack dab in the middle of Gen X, so I've seen enough but am not yet completely ancient and decrepit) to have seen and been in some odd situations. Hell, I fell into one the other week at work, discussing my work-husband's recent ex-girlfriend. We sublet an office and another desk from the attorney next door because we have outgrown our own space. The next door attorney has a law clerk, a guy who just sat for the bar last month and is awaiting results. He's significantly younger than me, maybe 26 at the most. Anyway, work-husband and I were talking about his recent ex, who is undeniably a very hot, scorchio young woman. But he's looking to settle down, and she's... not. But that doesn't stop her from still FaceTiming with him when she is vacuuming the living room in her lingerie. (Seriously children, do not do this. Your partner/recent ex-partner may pick up the phone while he's sitting next to a colleague and whaddya know, now the colleague knows what you look like in a lace teddy, pushing a hoover around.) 

 

So, after he finished speaking with her, work-husband came back into my office and we had a brief conversation about the approximately 12,783 reasons why he should not go back for a second helping. Not least of which was that he wants to get married in the next couple of years so he can start a family, and Lingerie Lady doesn't tick any of the requisite boxes for that except (a) female (b) into him (amongst others) and (c ) hot. Against her is the fact that while he's an attorney and makes decent cash, he's simply not rich enough for her -- she wants to be a housewife and maybe a mother (maybe), live in a big house in Beverly Hills and drive an expensive car. Trust me, this is EXACTLY the type of woman who could make that a reality -- I've met her and she's smokin' hot, very young, smart and ambitious. So I told him that straight up Lingerie Lady is a bit of a lady of easy virtue to begin with, and you've said don't want a woman who sleeps around and leeches off you -- you want a "nice" girl with a career. Fair enough. 

 

Well, the law clerk was listening in and called ME misogynist! :lol: I just about died laughing, said "bless your heart" to him, and told him it's lovely to have an ally out there. He told me that it was misogynistic to sl-t-shame a woman for being a player. I explained I wasn't shaming her, I was just stating that work-husband doesn't want a lady who has a bit of a past, and though I don't take such a line on how many people a person has slept with, I respect his preference. (I mean, someone's got to love us sl-ts, really, we can't help our pasts.) But it got me to thinking, maybe I should be more careful about assuming the younger generation has the same attitude towards talking about this kind of stuff at work.

 

There is, I think, a distinction to be drawn between the clearly offensive stuff that people of all generations can recognize as unacceptable, and the more subtle slights, ones that may have been inoffensive in the past which are now verging on toxic, can be harder to detect for those of older generations. But I am willing to listen. I work on the assumption that if someone is offended by what I say before them, I will alter my language before them going forward. It's not a big deal, and I'm curious about the evolution of language and respectability. If someone asks me not to spell "women" as "womyn," I will balk. But if someone asks me not to talk about relationships in front of them at work, I'm cool. It's work, and we should behave professionally. Also, I have a door to my office to speak of such things, and unlike some people, I am very happy to close it even when the only other occupant is a man. :P 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to manage someone a  who was sent sexually harassing IMs by an employee - she was married and had never spoken to the guy. We had black and white evidence (no he said/she said) and the guy got a slap on the wrist - no repercussions and she left demoralized a few months later.

 

If men had to put up with what women do in the work place they would fall apart, based on reading these posts - and I can guarantee women are almost always worse off in these scenarios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
- Back to Top -


Important Disclaimer: Please read carefully the Visajourney.com Terms of Service. If you do not agree to the Terms of Service you should not access or view any page (including this page) on VisaJourney.com. Answers and comments provided on Visajourney.com Forums are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Visajourney.com does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. VisaJourney.com does not condone immigration fraud in any way, shape or manner. VisaJourney.com recommends that if any member or user knows directly of someone involved in fraudulent or illegal activity, that they report such activity directly to the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. You can contact ICE via email at Immigration.Reply@dhs.gov or you can telephone ICE at 1-866-347-2423. All reported threads/posts containing reference to immigration fraud or illegal activities will be removed from this board. If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by contacting us here with a url link to that content. Thank you.
×
×
  • Create New...