Men now avoid women at work – another sign we're being punished for #MeToo

[Steeleballz 7,550]

Just now, ALFKAD said:

I think I can safely say that (we are both males) you are alone in your thinking.

 

I, and the majority of my peers, will go out of our way to avoid being alone with our female coworkers.   It's self preservation.  One mis-step and a career can be ended.  I personally witnessed a fine man lose his career because after a party one night, he offered to walk one of his drunk female coworkers home across a busy road.  She was drunk. He had been drinking, but cared enough to see she got home safely.  

 

Well, when they got to her apartment, she crashed on the couch.  Her roommates were out.  He got a blanket from the closet, and as he was covering her up (fully clothed), she startled awake, and freaked out on him.  Called the cops and claimed attempted rape.  He went outside to wait for the police to arrive, and told them what happened.  They read the situation,  and let him go home to his wife.  The next day, the girl called the police station and withdrew her statement, admitted she was drunk and he did nothing wrong.  Lucky him, eh?

 

Not so fast.  The story followed him to work, and three days later he was terminated.  So yes, I do my best to avoid being in a situation alone with any woman, regardless how nice she is.  Even a false claim can be ruinous.  (Though one poster I  particular earlier in this thread called me out as wrong, and said some disparaging things about my beliefs, which I chose to breeze past this time.  She was wrong in what she said, but I doubt she will admit it.)

 

But back to your comment, SB, what it says about ME is that I have seen first hand what a women's false claim can do to a man's career, and I am smart enough to avoid being in such a situation.

 

 

 

    I guess when talking about being alone with a coworker, I was not really talking about being standing over someone passed out in their home after a party. That happened in a social environment and really goes beyond something that applies to the workplace, although the repercussions did lead back to the workplace.

 

   As I said though, the bad outcome often follows a poor decision. Been in a similar situation myself, of giving someone who was totally wasted a ride home, and I had someone else come with us just to make sure nothing happened. Maybe I'm a little suspicious, but I actually envisioned how a situation like the one you described could happen.  

[Dashinka 23,245]

6 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

I think I can safely say that (we are both males) you are alone in your thinking.

 

I, and the majority of my peers, will go out of our way to avoid being alone with our female coworkers.   It's self preservation.  One mis-step and a career can be ended.  I personally witnessed a fine man lose his career because after a party one night, he offered to walk one of his drunk female coworkers home across a busy road.  She was drunk. He had been drinking, but cared enough to see she got home safely.  

 

Well, when they got to her apartment, she crashed on the couch.  Her roommates were out.  He got a blanket from the closet, and as he was covering her up (fully clothed), she startled awake, and freaked out on him.  Called the cops and claimed attempted rape.  He went outside to wait for the police to arrive, and told them what happened.  They read the situation,  and let him go home to his wife.  The next day, the girl called the police station and withdrew her statement, admitted she was drunk and he did nothing wrong.  Lucky him, eh?

 

Not so fast.  The story followed him to work, and three days later he was terminated.  So yes, I do my best to avoid being in a situation alone with any woman, regardless how nice she is.  Even a false claim can be ruinous.  (Though one poster I  particular earlier in this thread called me out as wrong, and said some disparaging things about my beliefs, which I chose to breeze past this time.  She was wrong in what she said, but I doubt she will admit it.)

 

But back to your comment, SB, what it says about ME is that I have seen first hand what a women's false claim can do to a man's career, and I am smart enough to avoid being in such a situation.

 

 

Chivalry is dead.  

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

11 hours ago, Steeleballz said:

 

    I guess when talking about being alone with a coworker, I was not really talking about being standing over someone passed out in their home after a party. That happened in a social environment and really goes beyond something that applies to the workplace, although the repercussions did lead back to the workplace.

 

   As I said though, the bad outcome often follows a poor decision. Been in a similar situation myself, of giving someone who was totally wasted a ride home, and I had someone else come with us just to make sure nothing happened. Maybe I'm a little suspicious, but I actually envisioned how a situation like the one you described could happen.  

That was my takeaway from the above example. I'm just thankful it wasn't me (I was at that same party, but left before she did).  Nowadays, i will do everything I can to ensure at least one other person is with me, never alone with a woman.

 

As an example, I used to go to the hotel rooms of female coworkers upon checking in, and check their room for them as a security courtesy (we had a couple of women who were attacked in their rooms.  #######??)  I always asked them to wait in the hallway with my bags while I did a quick sweep of the room.  Alas, i have stopped offering this gentlemanly service.  No way of walking back from a #metoo accusation nowadays.  If my wife happens to be with me, I still do the room check.

[Dashinka 23,245]

2 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

That was my takeaway from the above example. I'm just thankful it wasn't me (I was at that same party, but left before she did).  Nowadays, i will do everything I can to ensure at least one other person is with me, never alone with a woman.

 

As an example, I used to go to the hotel rooms of female coworkers upon checking in, and check their room for them as a security courtesy (we had a couple of women who were attacked in their rooms.  #######??)  I always asked them to wait in the hallway with my bags while I did a quick sweep of the room.  Alas, i have stopped offering this gentlemanly service.  No way of walking back from a #metoo accusation nowadays.  If my wife happens to be with me, I still do the room check.

It is sad that people men cannot be nice anymore.  I remember back in college, I would offer to walk female friends home after late nights at the library or partying.  I would never do that today without at least one other person and preferably two others.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

11 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

That was my takeaway from the above example. I'm just thankful it wasn't me (I was at that same party, but left before she did).  Nowadays, i will do everything I can to ensure at least one other person is with me, never alone with a woman.

 

As an example, I used to go to the hotel rooms of female coworkers upon checking in, and check their room for them as a security courtesy (we had a couple of women who were attacked in their rooms.  #######??)  I always asked them to wait in the hallway with my bags while I did a quick sweep of the room.  Alas, i have stopped offering this gentlemanly service.  No way of walking back from a #metoo accusation nowadays.  If my wife happens to be with me, I still do the room check.

 

  The situation you described warranted having another person around though. Mostly due to the alcohol being involved. I don't feel that way at work in general. If I go for lunch with a female co-worker, it's just lunch. If there was something more going on though, I probably wouldn't be going for lunch alone with someone.

 

  My attitude is not that of Mike Pence, where every situation is looked at as a spontaneous harassment charge pending. There is a balance we can reach. However as I alluded to earlier, my approach in general is to choose friends carefully. This extends to people I work with. If I am having lunch, it's likely there is a level of trust between myself and the person I am dining with. Otherwise I'd be perfectly happy eating alone. 

[Boris Farage 353]

6 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Chivalry is dead.  

Chivalry was murdered; strangled in its sleep by hairy armpitted thugs with an agenda to punish us all for the actions of a very small minority.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

8 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Chivalry was murdered; strangled in its sleep by hairy armpitted thugs with an agenda to punish us all for the actions of a very small minority.

 

   Chivalry is the religious and moral code of knights dating back to the 12th century. Of course it's gone. So is small pox and blood letting. They are gone for a reason. If there is a gap left by chivalry's demise, we could fill it in pretty easily with the concepts of "treating people with respect" and "not acting like a jackass". The loss of "chivalry" may be a bit less noticeable if people would apply those other two concepts a little more.

[Boris Farage 353]

On 8/30/2019 at 11:09 AM, Steeleballz said:

 

    I’m sure every large company has some kind of diversity training. It’s hard to make an argument where the central point revolves around every one doing it wrong, because the real world is more responsive than that. If the concept didn’t work, employers would have moved on to something else. I’m sure there are better ways of doing things, but the goal is the same. At it’s root is a cost benefit analysis. Like everything else in life. It’s not just about lawsuits. The cost of employee turnover is also involved. 

 

   Someone gave an example in another thread of not being able to give a consensual massage. There are probably 3 points I would bring up from a HR point of view.

 

   -there’s no real way to know it’s consensual. You are not in a social environment where people always feel free to object or leave.

 

  -other people may not feel comfortable with the activity, even if you do. It’s not just about the 2 people involved in the activity. Other people may not want to work in such an environment. 

 

  -you are being paid to work. If you want to give massages while getting paid, go to school and get training in that field.

 

   No matter which point you emphasize, it comes down to the same thing. If you like, then yes it is all driven by cost in one way or another. Employers want to minimize cost by providing a productive environment where people generally feel comfortable and happy. Does it always work for everyone. Probably not. Thats why we find another job sometimes. However That is what drives policy. 

Yes this was me. Apologies for being late to the party (a phrase I have almost never had cause to utter! 😉) I was stuck at a lavish resort with a hurricane bearing down on me. Much ado about nothing as it turns out, although I am sure there will much frenzied clambering  by the local grifters for those sweet FEMA dollars. "Oh my garrish lawn flamingo was tipped over in a stiff breeze. Ten thousand dollars, please."

 

I digress, but I would like to address some points about my own situation:

"-there’s no real way to know it’s consensual. You are not in a social environment where people always feel free to object or leave."

Generally, yes. But people also make good friends and have good relationships with those friends that transcends the workplace. She would absolutely have told me to stop if she didn't like it. This was one of those cases, and I am sure there are many out there. This was caused by a single busy-body who couldn't even own up to her complaint. Probably someone who was angry at men for whatever reason, and decided I would be the one to pay.

 

"-other people may not feel comfortable with the activity, even if you do. It’s not just about the 2 people involved in the activity. Other people may not want to work in such an environment. "

 

It's not like we were sitting in the conference room with tongues down each others' throats in front of the board. This was casual, didn't even happen that often, usually in my office or hers (with doors open), and I doubt most people even bothered to peek. And if they had bothered to peek, they would have seen nothing untoward. But honestly... if seeing two co-workers engage in a healthy work relationship produces discomfort, then people have bigger problems than what I should have been responsible for.

 

"-you are being paid to work. If you want to give massages while getting paid, go to school and get training in that field."

 

And work we did. I would argue that we were more productive as co-workers who enjoy each others' company and are happier at work because of it. I have no desire to become a masseuse. But I do desire to make my co-workers less tense and be more comfortable in the office. In fact, the incident left me embittered for some time, thus decreasing the quality of my work. So all this effort to make work environments sterile and impersonal has the complete opposite effect of creating a so-called stress-free workplace.

[Boris Farage 353]

18 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

   Chivalry is the religious and moral code of knights dating back to the 12th century. Of course it's gone. So is small pox and blood letting. They are gone for a reason. If there is a gap left by chivalry's demise, we could fill it in pretty easily with the concepts of "treating people with respect" and "not acting like a jackass". The loss of "chivalry" may be a bit less noticeable if people would apply those other two concepts a little more.

Oh must we parse words to ridiculous degrees? There is a modern meaning to chivalry, and to deny that is patently absurd. Chivalry includes those concepts you mentioned, such as treating people with respect, so if you're suggesting to replace those concepts with the very same concepts, then I believe you're out of luck. Because chivalry is dead.

[Boris Farage 353]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

It is sad that people men cannot be nice anymore.  I remember back in college, I would offer to walk female friends home after late nights at the library or partying.  I would never do that today without at least one other person and preferably two others.

Smart man.

 

As for me, I'll take my chances and go down swinging. But I wouldn't blame any man for protecting himself.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

3 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Yes this was me. Apologies for being late to the party (a phrase I have almost never had cause to utter! 😉) I was stuck at a lavish resort with a hurricane bearing down on me. Much ado about nothing as it turns out, although I am sure there will much frenzied clambering  by the local grifters for those sweet FEMA dollars. "Oh my garrish lawn flamingo was tipped over in a stiff breeze. Ten thousand dollars, please."

 

I digress, but I would like to address some points about my own situation:

"-there’s no real way to know it’s consensual. You are not in a social environment where people always feel free to object or leave."

Generally, yes. But people also make good friends and have good relationships with those friends that transcends the workplace. She would absolutely have told me to stop if she didn't like it. This was one of those cases, and I am sure there are many out there. This was caused by a single busy-body who couldn't even own up to her complaint. Probably someone who was angry at men for whatever reason, and decided I would be the one to pay.

 

"-other people may not feel comfortable with the activity, even if you do. It’s not just about the 2 people involved in the activity. Other people may not want to work in such an environment. "

 

It's not like we were sitting in the conference room with tongues down each others' throats in front of the board. This was casual, didn't even happen that often, usually in my office or hers (with doors open), and I doubt most people even bothered to peek. And if they had bothered to peek, they would have seen nothing untoward. But honestly... if seeing two co-workers engage in a healthy work relationship produces discomfort, then people have bigger problems than what I should have been responsible for.

 

"-you are being paid to work. If you want to give massages while getting paid, go to school and get training in that field."

 

And work we did. I would argue that we were more productive as co-workers who enjoy each others' company and are happier at work because of it. I have no desire to become a masseuse. But I do desire to make my co-workers less tense and be more comfortable in the office. In fact, the incident left me embittered for some time, thus decreasing the quality of my work. So all this effort to make work environments sterile and impersonal has the complete opposite effect of creating a so-called stress-free workplace.

 

   Policies in general are written to avoid the situations for the reasons I described. I'm not saying specifically that your situation was not consensual. I don't doubt your account. I'm saying in general, touching is not always consensual even though it may appear to be to one of the parties.

[yuna628 9,528]

16 hours ago, Boiler said:

Current story involving a MeToo victim, committed suicide.

 

https://nichegamer.com/2019/08/31/night-in-the-woods-dev-alec-holowka-dies-after-zoe-quinn-sexual-assault-allegations/

Boiler, this individual isn't a ''metoo'' victim. This individual did things. Not very good things at all. His own family acknowledges this and he did not dispute it either. Like some victims of abuse as children, they grow up not well-adjusted, need help, and end up becoming an abuser themselves. I am familiar with persons like this. It's a sad spiral, but it doesn't absolve the person from their behavior. He was seeking treatment, had obvious psychological issues too. It was his own decision to take his life. Their prior history was messy, witnessed by many... and I know and am familiar with others that are not surprised by any of it. That includes behavior from his accuser - but two wrongs do not make a right. This is an industry that is notoriously rife with abuse and difficult for developers of both sexes.

[yuna628 9,528]

4 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Oh must we parse words to ridiculous degrees? There is a modern meaning to chivalry, and to deny that is patently absurd. Chivalry includes those concepts you mentioned, such as treating people with respect, so if you're suggesting to replace those concepts with the very same concepts, then I believe you're out of luck. Because chivalry is dead.

It's not dead. You're just hanging with the wrong crowd.

[Steeleballz 7,550]

7 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Oh must we parse words to ridiculous degrees? There is a modern meaning to chivalry, and to deny that is patently absurd. Chivalry includes those concepts you mentioned, such as treating people with respect, so if you're suggesting to replace those concepts with the very same concepts, then I believe you're out of luck. Because chivalry is dead.

 

  We must, because the people who lament the death of chivalry because they can't hold a door open for a women are often the same people who see a homeless guy on the side of the road and complain that someone should get that bum out of sight. In short they don't really know what chivalry actually means.

 

  Chivalry was not just a code that governed the interaction between your brain and your loins.

 

  I do understand the behavior you are referring to. I'm just not sure why you are calling it chivalry.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Steeleballz

[Boris Farage 353]

Just now, Steeleballz said:

 

   Policies in general are written to avoid the situations for the reasons I described. I'm not saying specifically that your situation was not consensual. I don't doubt your account. I'm saying in general, touching is not always consensual even though it may appear to be to one of the parties.

Agreed, yes. (that policies are written to avoid situations, although I would amend that and say these policies are written to CYA against angry women with hair trigger lawyers.)

 

It's just a shame that men must endure a sterile and friendless workplace based on the actions of a very few handful of men, and probably most of them were either misunderstood or just caught up in a revenge fantasy.