The world’s most dangerous countries for women 2018

[Boris Farage 353]

2 minutes ago, laylalex said:

Really -- just because she wasn't a direct report, you think it didn't cross her mind that you could make things tough for her?

Well look. All I can really say is you had to be there. My reputation preceded me, everyone knew I was an open book, somebody you could talk to openly. There was an organisational hierarchy just as at any company, but interpersonal-wise we were (and are) all adults. Except one person I suppose. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all behave as such?

 

18 minutes ago, laylalex said:

He told me that what I needed to do was some meditation and deep breathing exercises with him, and I was open to it, because I trusted him. So while I had my eyes closed and he was leading me, he started stroking my arms up and down to improve my "flow" (whatever that is). It was... not cool. But at the same time (and I was very young, only 21) I knew he could make things difficult for me in the department, so I went along with it.  It was something that could have gotten a LOT worse but then someone knocked on the door and it ended. Our friendship also ended that day, at least in my eyes, but I kept being friendly to him because I figured that is what I needed to do to not get my reputation in the department destroyed.

Perhaps your initial intimacy with your instructor gave him the idea that you had willingly crossed a line he was happy to cross with you. When he moved forward with the situation, you didn't say no. (we men are finger-wagged with "no means no" at every opportunity!) Yet you blame him for putting his grubby tentacles on you. You can't just lead a man on, intentionally or no, send all the signals, and then place the burden of blame on him. You led him exactly where you wanted to go. And perhaps you ended the friendship not because if his actions, but the shame you felt of your own actions. I apologise if it sounds harsh, but this is exactly why men are so dubious of #metoo. You sent all the signals, you didn't say no, yet you blame him. Were you seeing anyone at the time?

[yuna628 9,530]

3 hours ago, Boris Farage said:

It wasn't that long ago actually, maybe ten or so years? In any case, as I mentioned, she never complained and there was absolutely nothing sexual about it. Co-workers helping each other out, nothing more.

 

Perhaps we as a society should at first assume the best, rather than the worst. When I am at work, the last thing on my mind is sex. And even if I were so inclined, the workplace is the absolute worst place to rut. Creating a "hostile" work environment would only work at cross purposes to a healthy and profitable business. If people would look at intentions in this manner first, and only the worst if the evidence were obvious, we would all be much happier.

I think for everyone to assume the best in society is unrealistic and just not possible. The world is not an innocent happy rainbow place.  You state that there was nothing sexual about it. But how do you know or perceive that it wasn't? Because she said so, when you asked? Because you believe her when she said she didn't report you? Honestly... reporting you was likely the proper thing. There's sexual harassment and appropriate behavior training courses that most large companies and employers have to undergo these days. A scenario like this is actually one of those reportable offenses my husband mentioned watching in the required yearly training.

 

I was young once, and tried to give a lot of men the benefit of the doubt, and not to assume the worst of intentions. I ended up becoming very jaded, disappointed, and taken advantage of. Then I grew up and got smart. Boundaries are very important in the ownership of your body.

3 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I am not sure I see the same sort of identity politics from the GOP, but of course they are not pushing a socialist/communist agenda.

It's there.

1 hour ago, Boris Farage said:

I was her superior yes, but not a direct report, major difference. If she ever felt it was inappropriate,  she was well within her rights to go either to her supervisor, to me directly (preferable, we're all adults here), or to HR. But she didn't. Honestly this story was just a throw-away story to make a larger point. (I can't be arsed to go back and look at what that point was, it's been a long day) My current point is simply that why don't we all just assume the best first, rather than assuming the worst. A "hey Chloe (made up name), that massage looks relaxing, was it?" rather than "Oh, he's sexually harassing Chloe, I'd better save her by reporting Boris anonymously." As a famous LA resident once said, can't we all just get along?

 

I made the mistake as a very young man, just out of university. Learned a very valuable, very ugly lesson. But came out of it wise beyond my years.

And.. as you say she was well within her rights to report you. So somewhere, deep down, you know it was inappropriate.

1 hour ago, Boiler said:

I remember when I worked in an Office  environment the biggest issues seemed to be around women reporting to other women, they did not seem to like that.

 

OK a generalisation but seemed quite normal, they seemed to prefer working for a male.

From experience, a lot of women do like working with men. They are more apt to focus on a task and get it done without fuss. In a workplace filled with women sometimes there are eggshells to be careful of... and a pecking order. That's not to say there are certainly workplaces where we work well and do get along, but sometimes a responsible man in the workplace can be a valuable working asset. It provides a different perspective to the mix. Hubby comes out of board meetings these days so drained.. and tells tales of the women who are all fed up with one another, some men who are busy bullying others, and others that have just 'checked' out. Back in the smaller departments the people who do the grunt work are busy getting stuff done and don't have time to be catty. Gossip is everywhere, and people always seem attracted to drama though.

[laylalex 7,249]

41 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Perhaps your initial intimacy with your instructor gave him the idea that you had willingly crossed a line he was happy to cross with you. When he moved forward with the situation, you didn't say no. (we men are finger-wagged with "no means no" at every opportunity!) Yet you blame him for putting his grubby tentacles on you. You can't just lead a man on, intentionally or no, send all the signals, and then place the burden of blame on him. You led him exactly where you wanted to go. And perhaps you ended the friendship not because if his actions, but the shame you felt of your own actions. I apologise if it sounds harsh, but this is exactly why men are so dubious of #metoo. You sent all the signals, you didn't say no, yet you blame him. Were you seeing anyone at the time?

Wow. I just read and re-read this. You really think I led him on? I mean, that's a genuine question. He never gave me the slightest indication over the years I knew him that he thought of me in any way than just a student who wanted someone "safe" to bounce ideas off of. It felt like the stakes were really low, and it's not like I walked in there with a low-cut top and short shorts every time I stopped by. He made it clear to ALL students that his door was always open, and when I needed a friend, he was there. It was a shock that he touched me the way he did. I can't think of any way I led him on except for accepting invitations to have pizza with him for dinner once in a while, and once I was 21 having a beer with him. I wasn't ASHAMED of what I did -- if I had been a male student, nothing of what I did would have been thought as provocative. I don't think I sent any signals except trusting him to do things in my best interests. That's why I agreed to the whole meditation thing.

 

And not that it's worth anything, but yes, I was seeing someone at the time, the guy I ended up marrying. I didn't tell him because he would have totally blown it out of proportion at the time and made more trouble than I wanted to deal with.

[Boiler 43,508]

6 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Iand people always seem attracted to drama though.

VJ?

[yuna628 9,530]

2 minutes ago, Boiler said:

VJ?

Forums are like their own little workplaces, aren't they?

[Boiler 43,508]

3 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Forums are like their own little workplaces, aren't they?

Well we have our ToS.

 

My Bible ,should be yours.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

5 hours ago, laylalex said:

*snip* (of your fantastic post)

 

I don't know how much of my being touched has to do with being conventionally attractive, and how much is because I have some sort of "please harass me" virtual sign hanging on my back. 

Post a coupla pics of yourself here, and we can help clear up this mystery.  😎

[Boris Farage 353]

3 hours ago, laylalex said:

Wow. I just read and re-read this. You really think I led him on? I mean, that's a genuine question

It doesn't really matter whether you actively led him on or not. The signals you sent led him to believe you were leading him on.

 

3 hours ago, laylalex said:

He never gave me the slightest indication over the years I knew him that he thought of me in any way than just a student who wanted someone "safe" to bounce ideas off of. It felt like the stakes were really low, and it's not like I walked in there with a low-cut top and short shorts every time I stopped by. He made it clear to ALL students that his door was always open, and when I needed a friend, he was there. It was a shock that he touched me the way he did. I can't think of any way I led him on except for accepting invitations to have pizza with him for dinner once in a while, and once I was 21 having a beer with him. I wasn't ASHAMED of what I did -- if I had been a male student, nothing of what I did would have been thought as provocative. I don't think I sent any signals except trusting him to do things in my best interests. That's why I agreed to the whole meditation thing.

 

And not that it's worth anything, but yes, I was seeing someone at the time, the guy I ended up marrying. I didn't tell him because he would have totally blown it out of proportion at the time and made more trouble than I wanted to deal with.

You admit that your bond with this instructor was somewhat beyond the normal student/teacher relationship, you put yourself in an intimate situation, you didn't say no. Yet you conclude he was the one being inappropriate. I ask again: how was he to know?

 

Even stranger to me, you used this incident to lecture me on my supposed power imbalance, but it was you who held all the power. You engaged in a relationship that went beyond student/teacher. You had, what? A grade to lose? He had a career to lose. Unless the man was a blithering idiot, a simple "no" from you would have ended the situation, and he dare not press the matter further. You said you were worried about how he would retaliate, but you cut your friendship with him anyway. Why did you not worry about retaliation for that? Did he retaliate? Did you ever tell your fiancé? If you truly were the victim, wouldn't you tell him?

 

Which is a round-about way of me finally getting to my point: no, I do not think your situation was similar to my supposed imbalance of power with that woman. My relationship with a fellow office mate was healthy and consensual (in a very non-sexual meaning of the word "consensual"). Yours--I'm sorry to be blunt--seems a bit sordid.

[TBoneTX 43,125]

All these posts about physical contact are extremely touching.

[laylalex 7,249]

2 hours ago, Boris Farage said:

It doesn't really matter whether you actively led him on or not. The signals you sent led him to believe you were leading him on.

 

You admit that your bond with this instructor was somewhat beyond the normal student/teacher relationship, you put yourself in an intimate situation, you didn't say no. Yet you conclude he was the one being inappropriate. I ask again: how was he to know?

 

Even stranger to me, you used this incident to lecture me on my supposed power imbalance, but it was you who held all the power. You engaged in a relationship that went beyond student/teacher. You had, what? A grade to lose? He had a career to lose. Unless the man was a blithering idiot, a simple "no" from you would have ended the situation, and he dare not press the matter further. You said you were worried about how he would retaliate, but you cut your friendship with him anyway. Why did you not worry about retaliation for that? Did he retaliate? Did you ever tell your fiancé? If you truly were the victim, wouldn't you tell him?

 

Which is a round-about way of me finally getting to my point: no, I do not think your situation was similar to my supposed imbalance of power with that woman. My relationship with a fellow office mate was healthy and consensual (in a very non-sexual meaning of the word "consensual"). Yours--I'm sorry to be blunt--seems a bit sordid.

Do you really think I held all the power? I don't know. I was still only just a woman, barely an adult back then. I didn't know what I was doing half the time, to be honest, and I am aware that given my admittedly "touchy-feely" nature I gave (past tense) off mixed signals to people, especially men. I just didn't think it was necessary to say no at the time, because honestly while I was kind of grossed out by being touched in that way, I wasn't completely sure that I *hadn't* led him on, and if I had, that I somehow deserved it. I do not think this now -- I was young and really inexperienced. And yeah, I didn't want to say anything because I was afraid he would lose his job if I did. While I ended the friendship, my feelings didn't stop, and that includes worrying that the incident could be misinterpreted after it had long passed. And no, he did not retaliate when I cut off our meetings. When I saw him in passing, he told me he missed our chats. I just said yeah, just really busy, senior year, you know. It still hurt me, though.

 

I didn't think about it as being an intimate experience at the time -- it was office hours (3pm on a Wednesday, I still remember) and there was a strong likelihood someone else would walk in or knock on the door at any time, which is exactly what happened. And this was over 12 years ago, well before #metoo, and I didn't realize that if I spoke up anyone would believe me. I was going through a dark night of the soul at the time, not sure who I was or what I wanted after graduation, and my fiance was neglecting me a bit (we weren't engaged then, and I was seeing other people). My friend the professor was one of the few people I felt comfortable talking about all the confusion I was going through.

 

I didn't want to tell my ex-husband/fiance/boyfriend back then, or ever. First, he was (still is) a jealous man. He has a tendency to blow things out of proportion. I know if I had said anything about it, it would have somehow been all my fault, and I just didn't want to deal with it. Would he have provided me with emotional support? Maybe. I'll never know.  It has nothing to do with whether or not I was actually a victim. If I had really trusted him then, or ever, I would have told him. I did tell someone else -- the person I'm now going to marry. 

 

I don't think it was "sordid" though -- it's not like I was having a torrid affair with the guy. We were friends despite the age difference (I think he was early 30s) and until the incident there was nothing weird about it at all. I don't think I ever sent any signals I was open to moving things along. I still feel bad about how it all ended, so maybe yeah, it isn't exactly similar to your experience.

[Dashinka 23,267]

8 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I think for everyone to assume the best in society is unrealistic and just not possible. The world is not an innocent happy rainbow place.  You state that there was nothing sexual about it. But how do you know or perceive that it wasn't? Because she said so, when you asked? Because you believe her when she said she didn't report you? Honestly... reporting you was likely the proper thing. There's sexual harassment and appropriate behavior training courses that most large companies and employers have to undergo these days. A scenario like this is actually one of those reportable offenses my husband mentioned watching in the required yearly training.

 

I was young once, and tried to give a lot of men the benefit of the doubt, and not to assume the worst of intentions. I ended up becoming very jaded, disappointed, and taken advantage of. Then I grew up and got smart. Boundaries are very important in the ownership of your body.

It's there.

And.. as you say she was well within her rights to report you. So somewhere, deep down, you know it was inappropriate.

From experience, a lot of women do like working with men. They are more apt to focus on a task and get it done without fuss. In a workplace filled with women sometimes there are eggshells to be careful of... and a pecking order. That's not to say there are certainly workplaces where we work well and do get along, but sometimes a responsible man in the workplace can be a valuable working asset. It provides a different perspective to the mix. Hubby comes out of board meetings these days so drained.. and tells tales of the women who are all fed up with one another, some men who are busy bullying others, and others that have just 'checked' out. Back in the smaller departments the people who do the grunt work are busy getting stuff done and don't have time to be catty. Gossip is everywhere, and people always seem attracted to drama though.

References?

[Ban Hammer 12,845]

13 hours ago, laylalex said:

Really -- just because she wasn't a direct report, you think it didn't cross her mind that you could make things tough for her? I mean, I've never been in the EXACT situation you speak of, but when I was in my senior year of college, I had a professor that I was friendly with who wasn't my instructor, but was in the same department I was in (Art History). He wasn't tenured yet, but he was on his way. He was an unofficial mentor of sorts. Anyway, he engaged in what I would call inappropriate conduct towards me one afternoon when I had come by during his office hours just to blow off some steam about my relationship problems; we had that kind of friendship. He told me that what I needed to do was some meditation and deep breathing exercises with him, and I was open to it, because I trusted him. So while I had my eyes closed and he was leading me, he started stroking my arms up and down to improve my "flow" (whatever that is). It was... not cool. But at the same time (and I was very young, only 21) I knew he could make things difficult for me in the department, so I went along with it.  It was something that could have gotten a LOT worse but then someone knocked on the door and it ended. Our friendship also ended that day, at least in my eyes, but I kept being friendly to him because I figured that is what I needed to do to not get my reputation in the department destroyed.

why was the door closed?

[Boiler 43,508]

39 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

why was the door closed?

I was wondering the same, not how you do things.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,316]

15 hours ago, laylalex said:

Really -- just because she wasn't a direct report, you think it didn't cross her mind that you could make things tough for her? I mean, I've never been in the EXACT situation you speak of, but when I was in my senior year of college, I had a professor that I was friendly with who wasn't my instructor, but was in the same department I was in (Art History). He wasn't tenured yet, but he was on his way. He was an unofficial mentor of sorts. Anyway, he engaged in what I would call inappropriate conduct towards me one afternoon when I had come by during his office hours just to blow off some steam about my relationship problems; we had that kind of friendship. He told me that what I needed to do was some meditation and deep breathing exercises with him, and I was open to it, because I trusted him. So while I had my eyes closed and he was leading me, he started stroking my arms up and down to improve my "flow" (whatever that is). It was... not cool. But at the same time (and I was very young, only 21) I knew he could make things difficult for me in the department, so I went along with it.  It was something that could have gotten a LOT worse but then someone knocked on the door and it ended. Our friendship also ended that day, at least in my eyes, but I kept being friendly to him because I figured that is what I needed to do to not get my reputation in the department destroyed.

My take would be that when you went in his office and shut the door to discuss your relationship problems, with someone that was not your professor, at that point it was not a professional relationship, and you did agree to the meditation exercises

[yuna628 9,530]

6 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

References?

Don't believe it would really help to drone on about what the current conservative nationalist party is doing with regard to identity politics. I'm fairly certain it wouldn't change your mind would it? Likely you'd disagree until the end of time and we'd get nowhere. Politics is politics, and both parties do it, when it suits their purposes. The usual method is stoking fear - fear of X doing something to a type of identity, fear of X identity changing for better or worse, fear of X identity having ulterior motives, and of course losing X type of identity. Everyone has an identity, and that is sometimes very important to people in ways from simple basic instincts to outright paranoia. It's an adversarial process, and it's effective in elections. To me, it's all a lot of useless noise in both directions.

Edited August 1, 2019 by yuna628