May 24, 2022 -- Deadly shooting at Texas elementary school

[B_J 2,752]

1 hour ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Everyone keeps saying put a stop to this. I really don't think there is one clear cut solution.

 

I will say this again. Stop the 24/7 wall to wall news  coverage that makes the perp infamous. Notice how it happens in clusters.  

 

Now how you stop the 24/7 coverage. I dont know

We need to change our thinking on what it means to be "famous".  Many of today's kids don't watch TV and they certainly aren't paying attention to the 24/7 news.  They're fame is internet based, and they want to go viral.  So, if you want to stop them from being famous, you don't stop TV and news, you have to stop people from posting and sharing things online.  That's even more difficult than stopping the 24/7 news coverage.

[yuna628 9,541]

I know many of you will never agree on my position about guns and arming teachers. That's fine.

 

This was a very bad kid that shouldn't have access to guns. So how do we stop that? I don't think we should ever be of the position of ''oh well.. that's just too bad.." By many accounts this kid probably had a very unpleasant life, and that life likely contributed to the horrible person he became. The persons involved raising him (drug addicted mother) and a completely dysfunctional family have a hand in that. None of them pulled the trigger, but he fits a pattern and profile of many individuals that should never ever be holding a gun.

 

But I still have questions I think that need to be answered in this case. I don't feel comfortable with the info that's coming out about this.

 

1) This town spent an enormous amount of it's budget on the police, in particular for the fortification of schools and protocols for active shooters. All of it failed here. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568

 

2) The shooter engaged the police and he still managed to get into the building. Once inside he remained in there, while the cops... did nothing.

 

3) While inside the school he managed to get inside a classroom which apparently was not following active shooter protocol by barricading the door. We know the door barricading/locking apparently works because by the time a group of CBP officers that had some kind of extra training, which was led by an off duty that was pretty annoyed at why the regular cops were still outside shrugging - that door was locked and the officers could not enter! They had to find a teacher.... to get them a key. They didn't actually breach the door with urgency... they just unlocked it. Which I got to say is still really odd.

 

4) Officers called out to kids inside to get them to respond which led to additional children being found and shot.

 

5) There is even some suggesting (testimony from some police) the officers waiting outside were only interested in trying to sneak their own children out a different way, while the shooter was ''contained'' inside the classroom - i.e. he had locked himself in with the kids he had just murdered.

 

6) It was so disturbing to parents that showed up very quickly to the scene that no cops were even trying to enter the building. Some angry parents did show up armed. The cops used threats and tasers to control the scene outside, while the killer had 40 minutes to an entire hour make kids suffer. https://reason.com/2022/05/26/witnesses-video-suggest-stunning-inaction-from-uvalde-cops-during-school-shooting/ Imagine if yourself, a gun owning parent were in this scenario - and was standing outside a school for an entire hour hearing gunshots while he murdered kids, and the police were not doing anything. https://hotair.com/headlines/2022/05/26/the-police-timeline-of-the-uvalde-shooting-has-a-lot-of-holes-n472131 I have seen many angry comments from cops, retired officers, and parents this morning about this absolute failure.

 

7) We have had many school shootings happen, we even had a sniper take pot shots at kids in a D.C. school recently, but never have I seen a group of cops so seemingly unprepared, untrained, and apathetic for a scenario they were supposed to be familiar with. The Parkland shooting also had issues, but this shooting seems like complete failure of protections on many levels.

 

 

[Boiler 43,720]

Many moons ago probably when the perp was born I remeber in the Town Iwas living i there was a big drive to find parents to adopt.

 

At that time I was involved with the school run, and there seemed a lot of adopted from abroard children, mainly Asian.

 

I did ask in a roundabout way why this was the case when there seemed so many locally. Short version I got was many were from troubled families Mothers on drugs and that impacted the child in the womb.

 

I can think of no end of shall we say societal issues that also impact. You can see it is many different areas.

 

All I hear about is the need for Backgtound Checks and Red Flag laws, neither of which would have had any impact here.

 

I also noted that the story from yesterday about what happened has changed a lot today.

[B_J 2,752]

Not being argumentative but, as I look at the measures that Uvalde ISD had in place and, while they look good, I don't really see any way they can be effective.

 

From the nbc news article, " The district adopted an array of security measures that included its own police force, threat assessment teams at each school, a threat reporting system, social media monitoring software, fences around schools and a requirement that teachers lock their classroom doors, "

 

None of these can really prevent this from happening and, more importantly, none of these can do anything to stop a shooter once they're on campus, except the police force.  And an elementary at a district the size of Uvalde would probably have one, maybe two, officers on campus.  I have no idea if that's what they have but I'm just going off of experience.  With the schools having so many entry points, officers can't really prevent them from getting on campus, they can only deal with the situation as it's occurring. 

 

The issue is simply that, no matter what systems and teams are developed, shootings will happen and schools have to be able to address the problem as it happens.  The response by Uvalde authorities is probably the logical response.  They shooter was not moving around the school shooting people.  He was in contained area.  Authorities, as I understand it, were waiting for the SWAT team.    

 

The problem is the plan.  The plan is hide and hope the good guys get there before the bad guy kills you.  They were waiting for the good guys (the SWAT team) and waiting didn't work.  If the parents rushed in, it most likely would have just resulted in more dead, innocent people.  

 

There needs to be a protective force at the school that can defend the students.

 

Also wanted to add, even if we banned "assault weapons", the kids could have just spent his money on a lot of handguns.  He would have just walked in with a gym bag full of loaded magazines and multiple handguns.  A ban will not prevent this.  Kids will be just as dead from a handgun at close range as they are from an AR-15.  The solution is to be able to address the shooter immediately, not waiting for help to arrive.

 

 

[Crazy Cat 39,620]

2 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I know many of you will never agree on my position about guns and arming teachers. That's fine.

 

This was a very bad kid that shouldn't have access to guns. So how do we stop that? I don't think we should ever be of the position of ''oh well.. that's just too bad.." By many accounts this kid probably had a very unpleasant life, and that life likely contributed to the horrible person he became. The persons involved raising him (drug addicted mother) and a completely dysfunctional family have a hand in that. None of them pulled the trigger, but he fits a pattern and profile of many individuals that should never ever be holding a gun.

 

But I still have questions I think that need to be answered in this case. I don't feel comfortable with the info that's coming out about this.

 

1) This town spent an enormous amount of it's budget on the police, in particular for the fortification of schools and protocols for active shooters. All of it failed here. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568

 

2) The shooter engaged the police and he still managed to get into the building. Once inside he remained in there, while the cops... did nothing.

 

3) While inside the school he managed to get inside a classroom which apparently was not following active shooter protocol by barricading the door. We know the door barricading/locking apparently works because by the time a group of CBP officers that had some kind of extra training, which was led by an off duty that was pretty annoyed at why the regular cops were still outside shrugging - that door was locked and the officers could not enter! They had to find a teacher.... to get them a key. They didn't actually breach the door with urgency... they just unlocked it. Which I got to say is still really odd.

 

4) Officers called out to kids inside to get them to respond which led to additional children being found and shot.

 

5) There is even some suggesting (testimony from some police) the officers waiting outside were only interested in trying to sneak their own children out a different way, while the shooter was ''contained'' inside the classroom - i.e. he had locked himself in with the kids he had just murdered.

 

6) It was so disturbing to parents that showed up very quickly to the scene that no cops were even trying to enter the building. Some angry parents did show up armed. The cops used threats and tasers to control the scene outside, while the killer had 40 minutes to an entire hour make kids suffer. https://reason.com/2022/05/26/witnesses-video-suggest-stunning-inaction-from-uvalde-cops-during-school-shooting/ Imagine if yourself, a gun owning parent were in this scenario - and was standing outside a school for an entire hour hearing gunshots while he murdered kids, and the police were not doing anything. https://hotair.com/headlines/2022/05/26/the-police-timeline-of-the-uvalde-shooting-has-a-lot-of-holes-n472131 I have seen many angry comments from cops, retired officers, and parents this morning about this absolute failure.

 

7) We have had many school shootings happen, we even had a sniper take pot shots at kids in a D.C. school recently, but never have I seen a group of cops so seemingly unprepared, untrained, and apathetic for a scenario they were supposed to be familiar with. The Parkland shooting also had issues, but this shooting seems like complete failure of protections on many levels.

 

 

All the deficiencies you pointed out make a very strong case for training and arming teachers.  Once a culprit has evaded other protective measures and has invaded a classroom, a well-trained, armed teacher can neutralize the threat.  

No additional laws will prevent this from happening again.  Now, I am finished. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Crazy Cat

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,330]

 

Mr. Musk just gets it. So simple

Texas school shooting: Elon Musk asks why media gives mass murderers the attention they desire

https://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-school-shooting-elon-musk-media-murderers

 

[yuna628 9,541]

Reports today detail that one of the parents was handcuffed by officers, eventually they were freed and ran into the school and saved their own children.

 

And sadly the husband of one of the teachers that was murdered passed away today. They were high school sweethearts and they leave behind four children. A gofundme has been started. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2022/05/26/husband-of-slain-uvalde-teacher-dies-of-heart-attack-two-days-after-school-shooting/

[TBoneTX 43,418]

Texas DPS Lieutenant Offers Jaw-Dropping Excuse for Why Police Didn't Engage Uvalde Shooter
By Bonchie | May 26, 2022 9:45 PM ET

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2022/05/26/texas-dps-lieutenant-offers-jaw-dropping-excuse-for-why-police-didnt-engage-uvalde-shooter-n570596

[TBoneTX 43,418]

This clown doesn't even deserve his usual "Beeto" song.

-------

CBS News Reveals Beto's Interruption of Uvalde Press Conference Was Orchestrated Stunt
By Sister Toldjah | May 26, 2022 1:45 PM ET

 

https://redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2022/05/26/cbs-news-finds-out-something-about-betos-stunt-that-makes-it-so-much-worse-n570327

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

15 hours ago, Boiler said:

I cannot explain how sickening this tripe is.  Thankfully, Candace Owens has the cajones to show the world what really happened.  Sadly, too little, too late.  

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

14 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I know many of you will never agree on my position about guns and arming teachers. That's fine.

 

This was a very bad kid that shouldn't have access to guns. So how do we stop that? I don't think we should ever be of the position of ''oh well.. that's just too bad.." By many accounts this kid probably had a very unpleasant life, and that life likely contributed to the horrible person he became. The persons involved raising him (drug addicted mother) and a completely dysfunctional family have a hand in that. None of them pulled the trigger, but he fits a pattern and profile of many individuals that should never ever be holding a gun.

 

But I still have questions I think that need to be answered in this case. I don't feel comfortable with the info that's coming out about this.

 

1) This town spent an enormous amount of it's budget on the police, in particular for the fortification of schools and protocols for active shooters. All of it failed here. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568

 

2) The shooter engaged the police and he still managed to get into the building. Once inside he remained in there, while the cops... did nothing.

 

3) While inside the school he managed to get inside a classroom which apparently was not following active shooter protocol by barricading the door. We know the door barricading/locking apparently works because by the time a group of CBP officers that had some kind of extra training, which was led by an off duty that was pretty annoyed at why the regular cops were still outside shrugging - that door was locked and the officers could not enter! They had to find a teacher.... to get them a key. They didn't actually breach the door with urgency... they just unlocked it. Which I got to say is still really odd.

 

4) Officers called out to kids inside to get them to respond which led to additional children being found and shot.

 

5) There is even some suggesting (testimony from some police) the officers waiting outside were only interested in trying to sneak their own children out a different way, while the shooter was ''contained'' inside the classroom - i.e. he had locked himself in with the kids he had just murdered.

 

6) It was so disturbing to parents that showed up very quickly to the scene that no cops were even trying to enter the building. Some angry parents did show up armed. The cops used threats and tasers to control the scene outside, while the killer had 40 minutes to an entire hour make kids suffer. https://reason.com/2022/05/26/witnesses-video-suggest-stunning-inaction-from-uvalde-cops-during-school-shooting/ Imagine if yourself, a gun owning parent were in this scenario - and was standing outside a school for an entire hour hearing gunshots while he murdered kids, and the police were not doing anything. https://hotair.com/headlines/2022/05/26/the-police-timeline-of-the-uvalde-shooting-has-a-lot-of-holes-n472131 I have seen many angry comments from cops, retired officers, and parents this morning about this absolute failure.

 

7) We have had many school shootings happen, we even had a sniper take pot shots at kids in a D.C. school recently, but never have I seen a group of cops so seemingly unprepared, untrained, and apathetic for a scenario they were supposed to be familiar with. The Parkland shooting also had issues, but this shooting seems like complete failure of protections on many levels.

 

 

I know we don't agree on all things "guns".  They aren't for you, and that's fine.  I grew up with them from a very young age.  Have taught every member of my family (as well as many, many a shooter outside me house) proper gun etiquette.  But I would never suggest YOU own guns, unless/until YOU were comfortable with them.  And it takes time and training, and unless something drastic happens in your life (hopefully never!), you will probably die feeling the way you do now.  Again, that's fine.

I also don't recall you being a proponent for taking them away.  So really, other than ownership, we DO see eye-to-eye, because we both want good people to own and use guns properly, and we both want senseless murders like this to be a thing of the past, to never happen again.  As details emerge, I agree, the police failed miserably here, at least by virtue of NOT charging the fort in the face of danger.  I cannot explain why that is, exactly, just as I cannot explain why thousands and thousands of kids went to school in the 70's & 80's with guns in their trucks, and knives in their pockets, yet we NEVER had mass school shootings.  But I can only postulate that it comes down to stronger, more moral people, with respect for others' lives and property.  The young men back then were more righteous, and prone to "do the right thing" than the kids of today.  I see all kinds of ideas bandied about... the internet, social media, media coverage, violent games (I am a firm believer in this one; teaches kids a practiced lack of concern for life in general).  These and several more.

But two things come to mind, one which we have all discussed before, and NB has mentioned again in both threads... there is TOO MUCH coverage of stuff like this.  If something like this HAD happened in the 70s, it wasn't all over the internet and news 24/7.  While it sickens the majority of us, there will be a crowd to which it appeals... others with the same deranged mind of this kid.  The other thing is allowing these people to get away with it.  Thankfully, this thug was killed.... no trial, no mistrial, no appeal, no cost to the taxpayers.  Just D.E.D.  And that shall help the misery of what he did pass a little bit faster.  (I say this due to what is going on today with the Parkland shooting; I think it is RIDICULOUS that we are two years post-murder-spree, and cannot even pick a jury to decide what to do with that punk.  Put him to death, period.  A) it means he will NEVER do it again, and 2) do this enough times, and hopefully the sick individuals who contemplate these sort of sprees (might) think twice.  IDK.  Maybe that's not how it would play out, but I can assure you that the opposite is true now... these thugs are sensationalized, and let's say the Parkland kid gets life in prison... there will be at LEAST 10 others who will seek to emulate him.  

 

As @Mike E has said, diagnosing mental illness is a tough thing.  There are ALWAYS signs, after the fact.  And sometimes (as in this case), them SEEM damning... but were they so damning a month ago?  There are a metric butt-load of kids who have "issues" at home, growing up, etc., who will never stoop so low as to take a life.  But pinpointing that exact point in some young kid's life (nay, even in young adults) is probably next to impossible, especially for those close enough to see it coming.

There really is no good answer.  We already have gun laws, and KNOWN criminals don't abide by them.  In the case of this kid, the one troubling aspect of it for me is the COST of the guns he allegedly had; this was NOT normal hardware for a kid of 18 to own; heck, I have some pretty pricey stuff, but not the level this kid had.  And when I was 18, I owned probably 3 guns, the total of which cost under $500... for those not in the know, the Daniel Defense AR-15 that is alleged to have been one of the weapons used, is a pricey gun, to the tune of 2-4X more costly of other AR-15s.  And while there is something to be said for buying quality, I personally never owned a weapon that expensive until I was in my later years... (much later, let's just leave it there).  So... HOW did this thug afford/purchase such?  Or was it a gift?  Still many details missing.  Cannot speculate.

 

I think most of us here agree on the whole "thugs murdering for the fun of it" even more than we agree on the topic of abortion, and that's a pretty agreeable topic overall for such a diverse crowd.  The question remains... HOW do we stop it, or at least make it better.  We are NOT headed in the right direction.  I'd like to think that if my own son, living at home, exhibited tendencies that would lead me to even SUSPECT he might do something like this Uvalde punk, that I would either ensure he never had access to a gun (at a minimum), or turned him into law enforcement (weak, since they cannot do anything until/unless a crime is committed or about to be committed).  But that comes down to personal intestinal fortitude... that one thing that I feel is lacking in today's society, especially amongst the younger men.  It certainly is MUCH different than it was when I was growing up as a late teen & early adult.

 

 

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

2 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

This clown doesn't even deserve his usual "Beeto" song.

-------

CBS News Reveals Beto's Interruption of Uvalde Press Conference Was Orchestrated Stunt
By Sister Toldjah | May 26, 2022 1:45 PM ET

 

https://redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2022/05/26/cbs-news-finds-out-something-about-betos-stunt-that-makes-it-so-much-worse-n570327

Abbott bounced him out on his ear.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

Quote

(Gray News) - The husband of Irma Garcia, a fourth grade teacher killed during the Uvalde school shooting, has died of a heart attack, two days after the massacre, according to family and multiple reports.

 

Joe and Irma Garcia were high school sweethearts who were married for 24 years.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by LIBrty4all

[Dashinka 23,365]

3 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

I know we don't agree on all things "guns".  They aren't for you, and that's fine.  I grew up with them from a very young age.  Have taught every member of my family (as well as many, many a shooter outside me house) proper gun etiquette.  But I would never suggest YOU own guns, unless/until YOU were comfortable with them.  And it takes time and training, and unless something drastic happens in your life (hopefully never!), you will probably die feeling the way you do now.  Again, that's fine.

I also don't recall you being a proponent for taking them away.  So really, other than ownership, we DO see eye-to-eye, because we both want good people to own and use guns properly, and we both want senseless murders like this to be a thing of the past, to never happen again.  As details emerge, I agree, the police failed miserably here, at least by virtue of NOT charging the fort in the face of danger.  I cannot explain why that is, exactly, just as I cannot explain why thousands and thousands of kids went to school in the 70's & 80's with guns in their trucks, and knives in their pockets, yet we NEVER had mass school shootings.  But I can only postulate that it comes down to stronger, more moral people, with respect for others' lives and property.  The young men back then were more righteous, and prone to "do the right thing" than the kids of today.  I see all kinds of ideas bandied about... the internet, social media, media coverage, violent games (I am a firm believer in this one; teaches kids a practiced lack of concern for life in general).  These and several more.

But two things come to mind, one which we have all discussed before, and NB has mentioned again in both threads... there is TOO MUCH coverage of stuff like this.  If something like this HAD happened in the 70s, it wasn't all over the internet and news 24/7.  While it sickens the majority of us, there will be a crowd to which it appeals... others with the same deranged mind of this kid.  The other thing is allowing these people to get away with it.  Thankfully, this thug was killed.... no trial, no mistrial, no appeal, no cost to the taxpayers.  Just D.E.D.  And that shall help the misery of what he did pass a little bit faster.  (I say this due to what is going on today with the Parkland shooting; I think it is RIDICULOUS that we are two years post-murder-spree, and cannot even pick a jury to decide what to do with that punk.  Put him to death, period.  A) it means he will NEVER do it again, and 2) do this enough times, and hopefully the sick individuals who contemplate these sort of sprees (might) think twice.  IDK.  Maybe that's not how it would play out, but I can assure you that the opposite is true now... these thugs are sensationalized, and let's say the Parkland kid gets life in prison... there will be at LEAST 10 others who will seek to emulate him.  

 

As @Mike E has said, diagnosing mental illness is a tough thing.  There are ALWAYS signs, after the fact.  And sometimes (as in this case), them SEEM damning... but were they so damning a month ago?  There are a metric butt-load of kids who have "issues" at home, growing up, etc., who will never stoop so low as to take a life.  But pinpointing that exact point in some young kid's life (nay, even in young adults) is probably next to impossible, especially for those close enough to see it coming.

There really is no good answer.  We already have gun laws, and KNOWN criminals don't abide by them.  In the case of this kid, the one troubling aspect of it for me is the COST of the guns he allegedly had; this was NOT normal hardware for a kid of 18 to own; heck, I have some pretty pricey stuff, but not the level this kid had.  And when I was 18, I owned probably 3 guns, the total of which cost under $500... for those not in the know, the Daniel Defense AR-15 that is alleged to have been one of the weapons used, is a pricey gun, to the tune of 2-4X more costly of other AR-15s.  And while there is something to be said for buying quality, I personally never owned a weapon that expensive until I was in my later years... (much later, let's just leave it there).  So... HOW did this thug afford/purchase such?  Or was it a gift?  Still many details missing.  Cannot speculate.

 

I think most of us here agree on the whole "thugs murdering for the fun of it" even more than we agree on the topic of abortion, and that's a pretty agreeable topic overall for such a diverse crowd.  The question remains... HOW do we stop it, or at least make it better.  We are NOT headed in the right direction.  I'd like to think that if my own son, living at home, exhibited tendencies that would lead me to even SUSPECT he might do something like this Uvalde punk, that I would either ensure he never had access to a gun (at a minimum), or turned him into law enforcement (weak, since they cannot do anything until/unless a crime is committed or about to be committed).  But that comes down to personal intestinal fortitude... that one thing that I feel is lacking in today's society, especially amongst the younger men.  It certainly is MUCH different than it was when I was growing up as a late teen & early adult.

 

 

Well said, +1,000.  I agree, we are certainly not headed in the right direction.  The culture in this country has changed and in many ways not for the better.  There are many factors involved with this cultural shift, so it is not easy to pinpoint any specific root cause.  As you mentioned, the shift toward 24/7 coverage of anything of note, the political divisiveness that has been cultivated, the desensitization of violence, etc. are all factors along with many others.

 

The blame game is rampant, and the political types, particularly on one side, want to, and seem to have a perverse need to, take advantage of this or any crisis that comes up.  This tends to focus on one or two factors while ignoring the rest.

 

I also agree, the response of the LEOs first on scene does not look so good at this point.  I suggest we wait for everything to come out before we completely hammer them.  I have heard one of the responders outside the school had a child that was a victim, I really doubt this father was afraid to go in, but given the situation and the potential for making things even worse, there may have been decisions made that do not look good.  I liken this to an aircraft crash investigation.  It is not a good thing to immediately jump to conclusions, so it takes time to get it right and inform the public.  I know social media and our 24/7 culture does not like this, but it is what it is.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dashinka

[B_J 2,752]

I'm just reading some Facebook posts from people in Uvalde. While this is tough for them, the people criticizing the cops and turning this political are just making it worse. 

 

I think there is a place and time to respectfully discuss how to prevent this from happening again, like how it has been here on VJ, but people trying to score political points off this are disgusting and are not helping the people of Uvalde. As one person said in a Facebook post, "I just wish they'd leave our town and let us heal"