Why are we rushing to defend Ukraine? [merged threads]

[Ban Hammer 12,861]

11 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

An example of an extreme Leftist/Democrat war hawk, Paul Krugman.

 

Why MAGA Wants to Betray Ukraine

 

https://dnyuz.com/2023/10/02/why-maga-wants-to-betray-ukraine/

maybe they missed the first "A" which means "America" - it's not "Make Ukraine Great Again"

[Pooky 3,355]

1 hour ago, Ban Hammer said:

maybe they missed the first "A" which means "America" - it's not "Make Ukraine Great Again"

You have to remember, this is the same Paul Krugman who wrote that an extraterrestrial invasion would be good for the economy.

 

https://business.time.com/2011/08/16/paul-krugman-an-alien-invasion-could-fix-the-economy/

[Dashinka 23,306]

Seems quite obvious, and I expect has been mostly discussed already.  What I wanted to show is the cracks that are forming in Ukraine.  It is interesting the Leftist MSM does not seem to report on any of this.

 

Ukraine war: The real issue is NATO and Russia

 

Some of the opposition reflects concern about rampant Ukrainian corruption. However, the bigger problem in Ukraine is a political struggle highlighted by the fact that the current commander in chief of Ukraine’s army, General Valerii Zaluzhny, is opposed to the plans for the Dnieper offensive that Zelensky and Washington are pushing. 

 

Beyond that, in August and September Ukraine came nowhere near to drafting enough men and women into the army because of growing resistance. The firing of recruiters, therefore, was not because of corruption (although there probably was some), but because of poor recruitment numbers. 

 

There are various threats to Zaluzhny. The BBC Ukrainian Service reported recently that the Ukrainian State Bureau of Investigation (DBR) and the domestic intelligence agency, SBU, have launched a criminal investigation against Zaluzhny for the failure of the recent counteroffensive in the south.  

 

This investigation could not happen without Zelensky’s support. Zelensky has installed his own people in the SBU and uses it to arrest and harass his opponents.

 

https://asiatimes.com/2023/10/ukraine-war-the-real-issue-is-nato-and-russia/

[TBoneTX 43,254]

Zelensky Asks If This Is A Bad Time To Maybe Get A Couple More Billion

 

[...] "So, um, I know you all are pretty busy with all the Israel stuff," said Zelensky while nervously fidgeting with the new $40,000 Omega Speedmaster watch on his wrist.  "But if it's not too much trouble or whatever, do you all have an extra billion or maybe two or three lying around that you're not using?  I need it for, um, important war stuff."  [...]

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/zelensky-asks-if-this-is-a-bad-time-to-ask-for-a-couple-more-billion

[Dashinka 23,306]

4 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Zelensky Asks If This Is A Bad Time To Maybe Get A Couple More Billion

 

[...] "So, um, I know you all are pretty busy with all the Israel stuff," said Zelensky while nervously fidgeting with the new $40,000 Omega Speedmaster watch on his wrist.  "But if it's not too much trouble or whatever, do you all have an extra billion or maybe two or three lying around that you're not using?  I need it for, um, important war stuff."  [...]

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/zelensky-asks-if-this-is-a-bad-time-to-ask-for-a-couple-more-billion

Except this really isn't parody.

 

Ukraine President Zelenskyy at NATO defense ministers meeting seeking more support to fight Russia

 

BRUSSELS (AP) — For the first time, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy joined a meeting of more than 50 defense leaders from around the world Wednesday to make a personal pitch for military aid, in the face of lagging political support in the U.S. and new pressure on allies to send weapons to bolster Israel’s war with Hamas.

 

His presence underscored growing concerns about cracks in what has been staunch international backing for Kyiv in its war against Russia's invasion, and worries that Ukrainian forces haven't made measurable progress in the counteroffensive, as winter closes in.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/us/ukraine-president-zelenskyy-at-nato-defense-ministers-meeting-seeking-more-support-to-fight-russia/ar-AA1i1tud

 

[TBoneTX 43,254]

5 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Except this really isn't parody.

The BB has to work harder and harder to score.

[Dashinka 23,306]

I thought Zelenskyy was taking care of this.  Guess not.

 

Zelenskyy aide on corruption in Ukraine: 'People are stealing like there's no tomorrow'

 

"Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder, so he could speak more freely," Shuster wrote.

 

"Simon, you’re mistaken," an aide said. "People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.""

 

The same official claimed that the Defense Minister’s firing did not have the desires effect because it took so long to occur.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/zelenskyy-aide-corruption-ukraine-people-stealing-theres-tomorrow

[millefleur 5,038]

Can confirm that corruption is still massive in Ukraine. I heard about a recent scheme where Romania is one of the few EU countries that will grant citizenship by descent as far back as great-grandparents. A tiny sliver of Ukraine was once part of Romanian territory, so there are some firms inside Ukraine who will fake documents for you to prove you had a relative from this region just as long as you're willing to pay the price for it. The fake documents produced will be deemed "real" by the Ukrainian government, complete with Apostilles, so the Romanians just naively accept it apparently. It's crazy to me that they would be so trusting of a country known for endemic corruption, but now with the new narrative of Ukraine being a beacon of freedom and democracy, I guess their EU allies don't really question it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Dashinka 23,306]

15 hours ago, millefleur said:

Can confirm that corruption is still massive in Ukraine. I heard about a recent scheme where Romania is one of the few EU countries that will grant citizenship by descent as far back as great-grandparents. A tiny sliver of Ukraine was once part of Romanian territory, so there are some firms inside Ukraine who will fake documents for you to prove you had a relative from this region just as long as you're willing to pay the price for it. The fake documents produced will be deemed "real" by the Ukrainian government, complete with Apostilles, so the Romanians just naively accept it apparently. It's crazy to me that they would be so trusting of a country known for endemic corruption, but now with the new narrative of Ukraine being a beacon of freedom and democracy, I guess their EU allies don't really question it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

This narrative always gets to me.  The leadership and rich in Russia and Ukraine are no different, corrupt, money loving, and selfish.  I suppose since the US and the EU sort of put in place the current Ukraine government they need to gaslight us with that "great democracy" narrative.

[TBoneTX 43,254]

Ukraine has taken 17,000 Russians off the battlefield without firing a shot, US Army special-ops general says

 

[...] Ukraine isn't only using bullets and bombs against Russian forces.  Thanks to its information operations, Kyiv has helped take 17,000 Russians off the battlefield without even firing a shot, according to the head of US Army Special Operations Command.

 

Rapid advances in communications technology and the widespread use of social-media platforms have made it easier for state and non-state actors to reach vast audiences to promote their own interests and undermine those of their rivals.  [...]

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-taken-17-000-russians-222101563.html

[Dashinka 23,306]

On 10/31/2023 at 6:52 AM, Dashinka said:

I thought Zelenskyy was taking care of this.  Guess not.

 

Zelenskyy aide on corruption in Ukraine: 'People are stealing like there's no tomorrow'

 

"Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder, so he could speak more freely," Shuster wrote.

 

"Simon, you’re mistaken," an aide said. "People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.""

 

The same official claimed that the Defense Minister’s firing did not have the desires effect because it took so long to occur.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/zelenskyy-aide-corruption-ukraine-people-stealing-theres-tomorrow

Here is the full piece by Simon Shuster.  When FoxNews excepted it, they left out quite a bit.  I found this pretty interesting, I do wonder when Zelenskyy will start asking for manpower along with money and weapons.

 

‘Nobody Believes in Our Victory Like I Do.’ Inside Volodymyr Zelensky’s Struggle to Keep Ukraine in the Fight

 

By the time Zelensky returned to Kyiv, the cold of early fall had taken hold, and his aides rushed to prepare for the second winter of the invasion. Russian attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure have damaged power stations and parts of the electricity grid, leaving it potentially unable to meet spikes in demand when the temperature drops. Three of the senior officials in charge of dealing with this problem told me blackouts would likely be more severe this winter, and the public reaction in Ukraine would not be as forgiving. “Last year people blamed the Russians,” one of them says. “This time they’ll blame us for not doing enough to prepare.”

 

The cold will also make military advances more difficult, locking down the front lines at least until the spring. But Zelensky has refused to accept that. “Freezing the war, to me, means losing it,” he says. Before the winter sets in, his aides warned me to expect major changes in their military strategy and a major shake-up in the President’s team. At least one minister would need to be fired, along with a senior general in charge of the counteroffensive, they said, to ensure accountability for Ukraine’s slow progress at the front. “We’re not moving forward,” says one of Zelensky’s close aides. Some front-line commanders, he continues, have begun refusing orders to advance, even when they came directly from the office of the President. “They just want to sit in the trenches and hold the line,” he says. “But we can’t win a war that way.”

 

When I raised these claims with a senior military officer, he said that some commanders have little choice in second-guessing orders from the top. At one point in early October, he said, the political leadership in Kyiv demanded an operation to “retake” the city of Horlivka, a strategic outpost in eastern Ukraine that the Russians have held and fiercely defended for nearly a decade. The answer came back in the form of a question: With what? “They don’t have the men or the weapons,” says the officer. “Where are the weapons? Where is the artillery? Where are the new recruits?”

 

In some branches of the military, the shortage of personnel has become even more dire than the deficit in arms and ammunition. One of Zelensky’s close aides tells me that even if the U.S. and its allies come through with all the weapons they have pledged, “we don’t have the men to use them.” 

 

https://time.com/6329188/ukraine-volodymyr-zelensky-interview/

[TBoneTX 43,254]

The question arises:  would Ukraine have been better off had they not resisted the invasion?   

Edited November 3, 2023 by TBoneTX

[Pooky 3,355]

52 minutes ago, TBoneTX said:

The question arises:  would Ukraine have been better off had they not resisted the invasion?   

No. Likely same number of Ukrainians dead, Putin would be a stronger thug (if he’s even still alive). The Baltic states would be next in line and, as they are NATO members, a Europe-wide conflict would be more likely.

 

it may sound callous, but keeping the war in Ukraine reduces the likelihood of a wider, and far more devastating, European conflict. In turn, that reduces the chance that China makes a move on Taiwan, thus cornering the market on high-end microchips (hello TSMC).

 

As a sidebar, the continuing war in Ukraine makes it imperative that the Israelis soundly thrash Hamas, with enough force to deter Hezbollah, the Houthis and the Iranians from joining in the conflict. The IDF needs to ensure that US forces are not committed to operations in the region, so as not to stretch their capabities , but keep them at a high state of readiness.

 

Everything is related, in some way or other.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Pooky

[Boiler 43,606]

I agree normally does not work out well for conquered people, just look how many died under Stalin in the 30's, millions upon millions.

[Dashinka 23,306]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:08 PM, Pooky said:

No. Likely same number of Ukrainians dead, Putin would be a stronger thug (if he’s even still alive). The Baltic states would be next in line and, as they are NATO members, a Europe-wide conflict would be more likely.

 

it may sound callous, but keeping the war in Ukraine reduces the likelihood of a wider, and far more devastating, European conflict. In turn, that reduces the chance that China makes a move on Taiwan, thus cornering the market on high-end microchips (hello TSMC).

 

As a sidebar, the continuing war in Ukraine makes it imperative that the Israelis soundly thrash Hamas, with enough force to deter Hezbollah, the Houthis and the Iranians from joining in the conflict. The IDF needs to ensure that US forces are not committed to operations in the region, so as not to stretch their capabities , but keep them at a high state of readiness.

 

Everything is related, in some way or other.

I hear a lot of pondering from the neocon pundits that Russia, and more specifically Putin, is intent to re-establish the USSR.  Although this might be the case, I am not really sure that it is.  Ukraine has always been a redline for Moscow as NATO expanded into Eastern Europe, and unlike a lot of US politicians, Russia tends to defend its redlines.  Russia/Putin know they cannot take on NATO, so I really don't see them going into the Baltics, or Poland, or Romania.  Time will tell of course, but IMo, I think this is all about Ukraine, and especially how the West has handled it since the early 90's.

 

Is this the beginning of the end of the war in Ukraine?

 

 

Zelensky’s struggle with his generals intensified on November 3 when Zelensky fired General Viktor Khorenko, the commander of Ukraine’s special operations forces. The commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian army, General Valery Zaluzhny, did not request his dismissal. The New York Times reports that “It was unclear whether General Zaluzhny, the overall commander of Ukraine’s forces, knew in advance of the planned dismissal” and that “[t]he firing appeared to undercut General Zaluzhny’s authority.”

 

The firing took U.S. military officers, who “described a close and effective working relationship with” Khorenko, by surprise. Khorenko’s special operations forces had had some success with long-range strikes and sabotage operations behind Russian lines. But the NYT reports that there had been tension over what the military had “perceived as politically guided decisions on strategy” that had been ineffective and costly.

 

Zelensky’s tensions with his generals reached a peak with Zaluzhny’s November 1 interview with The Economist. He asserted that the war had reached a “stalemate.” He conceded that “There will most likely be no deep and beautiful breakthrough.”

 

What’s worse is that Zaluzhny implied that the stalemate would evolve into defeat for Ukraine. A stalemate entails a long war of attrition. In a companion essay published simultaneously by The Economist, he explained that a long war “as a rule, in most cases, is beneficial to one of the parties to the conflict. In our particular case, it is the russian [sic] federation, as it gives it the opportunity to reconstitute and build up its military power.”

 

Zaluzhny said that in a prolonged war, Ukraine will run out of the “required volume” of missiles and ammunition while Russia, despite sanctions, is increasing its production capabilities. And even if it didn’t run out of weapons, he added, it will run out of men: a war of attrition “leads to the lack of Ukraine's ability to achieve superiority over the enemy in reserves by increasing their number.” A close Zelensky aide told TIME that, even if the United States gave Ukraine all the weapons it needed, Kyiv doesn’t “have the men to use them.”

 

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-talks-russians/