sending money to his family (long)

[R.&S. 2]

OP take it. This is a great advice.

Ok, I get the picture. Now this is what I think, and mind you, this is just a third person's view and opinion and nothing you should go by. I'd still like for you to read through it.

I'm the beneficiary here, and my current husband the USC. Like the two of you, we met through and online portal too. I've lived in India all my life, have never been anywhere except to China and Hong Kong, that too as my brother was working there. I for the life of me never imagined that I'd ever be married to someone on the other side of the planet, but here we are. Perhaps because of what came before, but the best thing in our relationship so far has been the fact that we were very open with each other as to our views on various subjects, and we knew exactly what we wanted. We spent a lot of time and energy discussing our views on personal as well as random subjects, which helped us get to know each other better. Despite all this, I'd say we've just touched the tip of the iceberg. There's an amazing chemistry, and there's also a huge plus that we both respect each other immensely. I wouldn't, for the life of me, want to live with a man who doesn't respect me or who cannot earn my respect.

Any relationship will have its set of misunderstandings, compromises, and what not, but the one thing that really would help it is being able to sit down like adults and discuss your differences of opinion. You are two very different individuals with two hugely different cultural backgrounds, and it's imperative that both of you meet on common ground. One can't be the giver and the other the taker all the time. The roles have to be reversed as and when required. I'd say, if there's an issue, sort it, argue about it, do whatever, but let the other person know that you have issues. No amount of shouting or yelling is gonna be of any help, and I personally am against it. Sit down like two calm adults and discuss issues with each other. Despite repeated attempts, if you still don't see eye to eye on any subject, then it may not be worth your while.

While on the one hand I hope and pray that things go well for you, there's a part of me that's been through some serious **** to know that sometimes it's easier to let go than to hold on to something. I'm sending you a linking that may or may not help you, but nevertheless is worth a look-see. Would really appreciate it if you'd read thru and try to make some sense of it.

God bless you, and if you ever wanna shoot the breeze, we're all here not to judge, but to be able to hold each other's hands in times such as this.

Here's the link I was talking about. http://www.marcandangel.com/2011/12/11/30-things-to-stop-doing-to-yourself/

[rlogan 2,036]

Insanity is making the same mistake over and over again but continuing to expect a different result.

Married too quick. Manipulated into it against your better judgement. You didn't talk about things beforehand. You didn't talk about things on your last visit either. Lecturing us about him needing to be mature & face the music - wow hon, look in the mirror. We just "enjoyed our time together". Yeah, I get it. Flowers and candy, kissy kissy - right on. Teen love. Totally irresponsible. When I read the part about him losing his job over seeing you while you were in India I thought wow - can it get any worse?

Exceptionally talented people are not exempt from stupid decisions. God I have made some real whoppers. But you have a naiive approach to love. Communication turns out to be vastly more important than the superficial lovey-dovey stuff you are getting an emotional high from in the short run before the train wreck of having to deal with it.

So all of this is going to hit the fan when he comes here. Oh well. I just hope that after it happens you see it all of your own doing. Sure, he's been manipulative since the day he met you but you are the one who right now says you have to keep running in front of the bus and not expecting it to hit you. Althouth the stuff you say to us sounds good sometimes, it is being said to us, as a sounding board, which I understand - but it isn't being said to him. Or agreed to. Both of you are pretending the last event didn't even happen. Just like before - push things off without resolving them. The important thing is to get him here quick, quick, quick!

[TBoneTX 43,194]

Agree heartily with R. just above. OP, you rather remind me of me when I was much younger. I continually tried to "manufacture" relationships with totally incompatible people who weren't available to me in one or multiple ways, and I wouldn't accept otherwise. Head. Wall. Bang. Things got much better when I quit doing that.

[troutcat 41]

are you comfortable signing the I-864 affidavit stating that you will support him? do you both understand the terms of that affidavit? that one takes trust, i think, because one is assuming binding financial responsibility which does not end, even if the marriage does.

[Divs 35]

Agree heartily with R. just above. OP, you rather remind me of me when I was much younger. I continually tried to "manufacture" relationships with totally incompatible people who weren't available to me in one or multiple ways, and I wouldn't accept otherwise. Head. Wall. Bang. Things got much better when I quit doing that.

TBone, been there done that. You aren't the only one.

[Mike B. 231]

The other thing to remember here is that this behavior is not normal. Bvpshenvalley starts her post with "I am married to a dirt-poor Peruvian. I have dealt with these same exact issues as you describe in this thread." So allow me to say this: I am married to a dirt-poor Peruvian. I have not dealt with these same exact issues as you describe in this thread. My wife's family, despite living in the pueblos jovenes (google it if you need an explanation) has never asked for a cent from me, nor do we send them remittances. Just recently my wife's four-year-old nephew was diagnosed with brain cancer. Although we make little money, probably much less than most people who post here, my wife and I JOINTLY decided to send some money down to pay for his MRI, offset some of the cost of his surgery, and stuff like that. They ain't getting a car out of us, though. This is money to help save the kid's life, and again, it was agreed to jointly by my wife and me.

I hope you understand that I'm not telling you this story to say "isn't my marriage so much better than yours" or "Hey look, everything is perfect with my wife and me." I'm telling it to you to demonstrate that there is another way, that mature people (and I can barely count myself as even that) can work these things out, and that the foundation of a relationship is the idea that things have to be done in a joint fashion in which there is at least some agreement between the two of you about important things like what to do with all your money. Sure, everyone disagrees sometimes, but I sincerely hope you do not get into the mode of thinking where you are telling yourself "every couple has disagreements, so I guess it's normal if my husband wants to move his whole family in with us and drive me even further into nearly a quarter million dollars worth of debt when I want the exact opposite." It's just my opinion, I don't even know you, and others will disagree, but I think adopting that line of thinking would be doing yourself a great disservice. What you are going through is not necessarily normal at all.

[catknit 144]

The plain fact of the matter is that this behavior IS normal for some - not all, but enough that I personally know at least 2 guys who have pulled this kind of ####### on their Indian-born wives. For a lot of American women, they get far enough into the relationship where these things get discussed or they notice the bizarre actions of the guy and either run for it or they put their foot down.

Some men respond. Some don't.

There is nothing in her story that I haven't heard before - [even the car thing, even the friends spouting off about dowry, even the apron string issues [ESPECIALLY THIS]] - to varying degrees, across a pretty sizable amount of the socio-economic spectrum in India.

I know there are people with borderline personality disorders, narcissism, etc etc out there - but I have seen and heard so much of this soooooooooo many time with Indian men in their 20s [especially mid to late 20s, some even early 30s]. So much so, that if all of these Indian men truly have these disorders, WHO should be doing a study!!! It's got to be environmental - hence cultural. Being a boy growing up in India IS all about ME, ME, ME.

Does that mean she needs to lie down and take it? No. Does it mean that all Indian guys are like that? No.

But, there really and truly is a culture component to this. Someone mentioned immediate family is only your spouse and your kids. That is not true in any South Asian community/country. It's just not. Parents and siblings [especially to the eldest son] will ALWAYS be immediate family also. This is ingrained in the culture. You can argue all you want about how it shouldn't be the case, that the Bible talks about cleaving, that in this country he needs to buck up and take it like a man...but for his entire life it has been reinforced again and again that this is what family is, it's in his colony, in his village, in his extended family, reinforced on Indian tv shows, Indian cinema that living this way is perfectly normal. That's not to say that there are families that don't do this - there are, and many at that, but joint living and continuing an immediate family relationship with parents and siblings as an adult is normal there.

I think one of the sticky points in this - and I don't really know, just a guess - is that he figured it would all be fine in the end because she is of Indian heritage herself. What could be more perfect than a smart, successful American woman who "gets" Indian culture? That somehow he could say the magic words that would end up letting him have his cake and eat it too - because she "knows how it is/should be".

If she wants to continue with her marriage with out being miserable and second guessing his every move he needs to show he can keep his word. He needs be upfront and specific about how he is handling his family and not argue semantics [like with the visit topic where he argued that he didn't "agree" to her two week offer - he just chose to say nothing and that that isn't really an agreement according to his logic].

Oh, and that clingy, multiple marriage proposal asking stuff - seen it too. Some areas [geographical/social/religious] have such repressed sexual/relationship freedoms that the men are a MESS. I had to tell an NRI friend that the texts he was getting back from one chick should actually be taken literally. She was accusing him of stalking - he couldn't get why. Could NOT understand that the smothering actions, constant contact, etc was annoying to the woman he was pursuing. He was a smart guy who spent his entire life studying, testing, studying more and when in the US just didn't understand how to have a normal/everyday relationship. The thought that a girl would even let him take her to the movies was so monumental, he didn't know what to do with himself and resorted to weird clingy-ness. He was 28 at the time. Constant texting/facebook messages/ims are something my 13 year old nephew does with his "girlfriend", this guy was about the same "relationship" age.

Anyway - of the 2 guys who were like this, 1 ruined his marriage. The other grew a set, grew up and came to reasonable compromises about a lot [except his momma - Indian men and their mommas ].

Taking a step back a re-evaluating what is what may be a very smart thing to do...

[Sayha or bust. 71]

It's something your going to have to get used to sending money to the family, your husband will have to realize once he's here is your bills come first! As far as him asking for all this money while he's over there, I sent money but my now wife never asked or told me how much to send. One thing I don't understand is your the Petitioner why are you asking him to help your with the financials of the Visa process? Can you really afford for your husband to go to Law school once he gets here? I would think he needs to find employment as soon as he is legal to work so he can hold up his end of the deal. I don't want to past judgement but I see a lot of trouble a head of you when he gets here. Please air out your differences before he arrives. He's not even here and you guys are having serious arguments. I wish you the best!

Ps. I send money to my wife's mom and dad almost monthly, sometimes I question her a bit about why the large amounts but we never argue and it doesn't tap into our bill or savings money.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Sayha or bust.

[Darnell 8,478]

catnit - thanks for posting that. I've walked into those situations when I was in Singapura and honestly it wasn't a culture shock to me. It was a bone-headed shock, but not 'culturally-surprising' to me, at all.

[rlogan 2,036]

But, there really and truly is a culture component to this.

I am hearing this about India, and have not heard anything contrary to it. So thanks for pointing that out to every one who has - I am taking this to be true.

From what you said too I think we agree that regardless, cultural affectations have to stand on their own merits instead of being blindly accepted. Ghastly things like headhunting, cannibalism, infanticide, child rape, mutilation, slavery, spousal beating, etc. are also cultural, many of which continue on today. We can't just say "oh, yea well he's old-school cannibal so lets just show a little cultural sensitivity here..."

It's fine if she's cool with his cultural affectations. But she clearly isn't. So it begs the question: why choose it in a spouse if you loathe it so much?

[catknit 144]

Rlogan - I completely agree that you can't hide behind bad historical practices but some people can't get up to speed all at once...and I think there are aspects to him that she sincerely and truly loves. I think she even admitted to looking for a partner based on being Indian or of Indian descent...

But, there's a sort of trick to melding two very different cultures - will it sink in that he will loose her if he keeps his comfortable traditions??? Hopefully that will be the proverbial kick in the pants. But, he may play that right back at her too - the whole "well you knew how I was raised and now you want me to change everything or I loose you".

I spent close to a year in India with my husband - it strikes me from the outside as what I would have thought the US would have been like in the 1960s-1970s for women. That's just based on the struggles in the US from a historical perspective not having lived through them myself. Women are shifting from a wife/mother/care giver stance to an independent working woman and trying to balance their world. I don't think that men have an issue with it per say but more of a "holy #######, where does that leave me cause I know how my mom and dad are and this is totally not how they are!!!!"

In no way am I giving the OP's husband a pass on acting the way he is...but...I think there needs to be an outline drawn of when and how the transition into a healthy relationship both parties will enjoy will happen. A clean slate with agreements hashed out perhaps??? And, I don't discount backsliding on his part because this is the life he has lived forever.

I think she'll need to fall into more of the "putting her foot down" side of the fence. If he balks or sets off on some sort of momma-drama bender from it - it may be time to cut bait, as they say. But, I have a feeling this is more of a maturity issue on his part. Even, pre-emptive culture shock on his part...it may be totally workable, maybe not. OP is [obviously] closest to the situation and will need to hash it out on her own.

I completely get how from our outside perspective it looks insane and bizarre. [Complete side story, when living in one of the "nicer" Delhi neighborhoods, the local weekly ad-rag paper had the class schedule for not 1 but 2 "ladies schools" where wives could go to learn foreign cooking, flower arranging, and an 8 week course for new wives on hygiene and basic appearance up keep - I sooooooooo wanted to go but being a WASP from the greater NYC area my husband talked me out of it since the other ladies may get gossipy in Hindi and I wouldn't know all the juicy bits they were saying about me - if only Rosetta Stone had gossipy women talk as a chapter].

Her whole saga made me chuckle since this stuff is really and truly not unique in Desi culture. Her husband is old-school, but not head-hunter old school. Here's hoping he grows and matures in the man she deserves [and the man an awful lot of Indian guys end up being even if they do start out a little rough around the edges].

[VanessaTony 3,567]

One thing I don't understand is your the Petitioner why are you asking him to help your with the financials of the Visa process?

Why shouldn't she? It's actually SHE who is helping with HIS visa process. She's done her part for the petition, technically the rest is ALL him. I personally paid for almost the entire visa process myself but that's irrelevant to the amount my husband has spent on me since.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Post #60 <snip>

I'm going to reply to your post #60 (link to post above).

I've been thinking about this today and especially your last statement. You don't know what to think. On the one hand you don't want to risk losing him if he's NOT lying, and on the other you're worried he IS lying and what sort of trouble that will cause. So I thought I might tell you worst case scenario. If you're okay with "worst case" then maybe you want to take the risk. If you're not okay with "worst case" then.. well... you have a decision to make.

So here goes. WORST case scenarios (outside of the truly awful stuff) if he is using you:

1. He comes to the US and he leaves you - you get a divorce and move on. You can't get him deported (well actually ICE deports him but you know what I mean) unless you have proof of it all being fake;

2. He takes over your apartment, is abusive to you and has his parents stay and won't leave - you can leave and yes lease wise this will suck but at least you CAN get out;

3. He spends all your money - no access to accounts or limited access stops that possibility;

4. He refuses to help out with bills - either you get divorced or you live with it. You can't force him to do it;

5. He spends almost all his money back to his home country and leaves you will all YOUR bills and his - same as above;

6. He uses public benefits and you are forced to pay back the government - you can't do anything to stop this;

7. He accuses you of abuse (thinking he needs to to get his 10 year GC), you get arrested and everything goes in the crapper - nothing you can really do here either

It could be that once he's here he realises it's not at cheap as he thinks, gets his rear in gear and everything works out. You won't know unless you take the chance BUT it's a pretty huge chance to take. I know personally if there was ANY doubt I wouldn't do it because I've read worse than the above examples.

In response to the points in your post:

1a. The Indian economy MIGHT be growing but his earning potential here is still a LOT higher. Even if he isn't working for several months when he DOES work his income will most likely make up the "loss" of not working in his home country. The US might be a "sinking ship" at the moment but it could bounce back. He gets US citizenship he returns to India or stays in the US. A lot of people value US citizenship highly. He might need to go back to school but schooling here should carry to India so he might just study, use student loans and then return to India.. I have no idea. If you asked me what evidence I had of not marrying Tony for the GC (and some people have) my answer was "Australia is just better. Better in a lot of ways that really matter. The US has it's pros and Australia has it's cons but my scale is still weighted to Australia being better". It's balancing out a little now but especially in the beginning it was totally all about Tony and he never doubted that.

1b. Maybe. Maybe he was talked into it and his family had plans about your money. Maybe it's not about money and instead about opportunity in the US.

2. This is possible. Sometimes friends words really hurt. But it could also be the reason he was so upset was because his friend said what he was thinking. We also don't know what happened with the dowry situation. You probably remember what he said but might have put your emotional spin on it.

3. Didn't he basically expect you were sending him $2K? Then say well $1K would be enough and now he's saying $470? This just doesn't make any sense. He REALLY wants a car and he expects you to help him pay for it. This is quite clear. He can't accept your "gift" of not having to worry about the visa fee (which he probably would miraculously not have the money for when the time comes) and instead makes demands on how he spends the money you specifically earmarked for the visa fee... didn't he say that you can't tell him where to spend money you give him? Sounds like he's decided the immigration process isn't as important as a car and that you'll just have the money later anyway

4. This amount has changed again. Didn't he say 50% or something? Either way he's right, he's allowed to spend his money however he wants... you would just hope that it's out of whatever leftover money you guys have after bills and not a specific amount or specific time. Just "when you can". If you can't you shouldn't put yourself into debt to do so. His family has been living before you came along and will continue to do so.

5. Changed his tune on this one too. But he's right, his family not going hungry is important but again, they survived before they had an insane amount of money and will continue to do so, he isn't the centre of their world and he shouldn't want to be. Why can't he send the same amount that he spent when he was living there? Why can't his brother pick up the slack enough that that amount lessens so he can focus on you and his family in the US? Why can't then "extra" money be a present, a gift, rather than something his family relies on? He's right that the economy here isn't the best so what if he loses his job and his family is used to spending the amounts he sends and is unable to do without it? He needs them to be able to survive without him... that is the kindest thing he can do. Make them able to survive without him and yet enjoy the occasional perks of gifts he sends, rather than relying on it. God forbid he passes on before they're able to survive without him... THAT would be bad. Whether he realises it or not he is making it about him, rather than his family. He's focused on how good sending money home will make him look. How much better HE can make their life. How grateful they will be to HIM. How they rely on him and can't live without him. If he cared about them he would prepare them for life without him and send them gifts on occasion. They'd love that.

6. His family doesn't NEED to earn much to survive. Some money is better than no money. This is also covered in my response to #5.

7. I see his point. You're allowed to be spoiled by your family who earn more money than you, yet he can't spoil his family who he earns more money than. But what he doesn't seem to grasp is these "gifts" most likely didn't come at the cost of family expenses. Didn't come at the cost of them paying back debts and paying their bills. He is expecting to send money that you've explained just won't be available right away. Yes he'll be earning money but it needs to pay the bills that him being around will increase. Of course once you're stable gifts are going to be more readily able to be sent but he needs to realise that. He doesn't seem to get it. He doesn't understand that by sending his family money he is hurting his family HERE in the US... or he just doesn't care.

I hope some of that helps you think. I'm sorry you're in this position. It will work out in the end, maybe not how you wanted or expected but you will be happy eventually.

[rika60607 215]

Rkk,

you guys are both immature and I hope, young - so that there is room for you to grow up and argue not about things that do not matter. It's like you are looking to make an argument, when there is no need and seems that both of you expect the other person to solve their problems.

Examples from your side:

(1) you argue about number of kids to have, when you are just getting out of school with a huge student loan and knowing that you will not make much money for the next 4 years. You know you can not afford kids for the next 4 years. Why argue? May be you will have one kid 5 years down the road and decide that you don't want more? Why argue now? Why try to adopt any if you can't afford to? What next - threaten divorce because he wants 4 children and you want 5?

(2) you argue about % of income that he can send home or that you will use to pay off student debt. You don't even know if and when he will have a job and how much money he will be able to make. Unless student loans are garnished from your salary, they are not % of your income, but a firm number of $$.

(3) you expect him to help you pay your student loans... it is nice if he does, but it is not his duty. They are your loans. Be responsible for yourself.

(4) Why argue about how long his relatives can visit? If you ever have those children, you will beg them to visit and help with the kids. So try to have a good relationship with them (does not imply sending money), instead of trying to limit their visits upfront. Now they are your family too.

(5) You come off controlling when you try to solve his family's impending money shortages. They are adults and survived for 50+ years before you appeared in their life.

If you love the guy, go with a flow and try to be reasonable. If you think he is using you, get a divorce. Do what YOU want, always just be graceful about it.

[catknit 144]

I wanted to just clarify I am not laughing at the situation or the OP - I know this is hard stuff on the personal level...

I mentioned chuckling in a previous post.

I just found it amusing that there are people [in this case some Indian men] that don't realize how much the match up with the stereotypical BS that others try so hard to fight.

The "I am NOT a momma's boy" argument followed up with pressing their mom's legs. Or, the whole car-dowry thing. Seriously, that's been played out to the nth degree, even making the front pages of the Times of India and Hindustan Times [the 2 big national daily newspapers]. Many of the issues the OP speaks falls in line with the issues most Indian wives [or probably more accurately wives of Indian men regardless of their culture] find themselves dealing with...

An example, if we moved back to my husband's state, I would be living in a joint household. Simple as that. I know that for a fact. Now, if we decided to move back due to a work commitment in another city/area - we would live alone but probably in a place where his mom could live with us as needed [maybe months at a time, who knows]. I know this is part of the deal and have been ok with it from the get go because I knew it could happen. Does that have me hopping up and down with joy? Hells no. Is that a sacrifice I would make for him, yes. Just like him moving here to be with me...

Guess what else, I make him a cup of tea every day at 3:30. Really. Is this some sort of brainwashing? No, it's because at home that's when his mom makes afternoon tea or the tea-dude would walk the halls at work. He appreciates it, gives a true and honest thanks and it's become a part of our day.

Is this how I thought married life would be? Nope. Have I been converted into some sort of weird domestic slave - no.

I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is the OP appears to be in a pretty typical American to Indian marriage and all the lumps and bumps that can go with it. Her husband tends toward the more traditional end. But, it may get better with some work. That said, it may not too - that's up to them and I hope she has the strength and courage to do what needs to be done for her happiness - which ever way it goes...