How to Establish a No-Fly Zone Without Starting World War III

[TBoneTX 45,550]

Interesting.  Comments, including from our military folk?

Quote

How to Establish a No-Fly Zone Without Starting World War III

 

https://amgreatness.com/2022/03/12/how-to-establish-a-no-fly-zone-without-starting-world-war-iii/  

 

 

[TBoneTX 45,550]

Comments, please?

[Dashinka 24,606]

Still wondering how a no-fly zone works when most of the ordinance is artillery and cruise missiles.  I believe the Ukrainians already have Turkish made attack drones. 

[Mike E 11,741]

5 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Comments, please?

Still seems provocative 

 

53 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Still wondering how a no-fly zone works when most of the ordinance is artillery and cruise missiles.  I believe the Ukrainians already have Turkish made attack drones. 

I think one reason Zelenskyy wants a no fly zone is because he hooes Putin will counter escalate by bombing NATO air bases. Each escalation and counter escalation will bring NATO into full hostilities with Russia.  

[Dashinka 24,606]

11 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Still seems provocative 

 

I think one reason Zelenskyy wants a no fly zone is because he hooes Putin will counter escalate by bombing NATO air bases. Each escalation and counter escalation will bring NATO into full hostilities with Russia.  

It does seem like Zelenskyy is doing everything he can to escalate the conflict to something more global which to me indicates he really does not have a good position despite all the "Ukraine is winning" propaganda that is coming out in the Western media.  I saw a story today that Russia only has 10-14 days of ammunition left to fight.  Really, how is that relevant with supply chains only a few hundred miles long.  I am also questioning the strategy of parading Russian POWs out for propaganda purposes, isn't that against the Geneva convention.  I am not in support of Putin's actions, but this is no "good" vs "evil" fight.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/does-sharing-images-of-russian-prisoners-of-war-violate-the-geneva-conventions-1.5813202  

[millefleur 5,047]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

I am also questioning the strategy of parading Russian POWs out for propaganda purposes, isn't that against the Geneva convention.

Absolutely no POW's, either from Russia or Ukraine or any country in any war, should be filmed and used for propaganda purposes. The chances that it's at best completely fake are high or at worst that these confessions were obtained via torture are very high. We simply don't know so this should really stop. It amazes me there hasn't been a massive outcry in the media about it yet. It baffles me that we went from the realist view of "War is hell" to "War is a black and white fight of good and evil and good will win and only ever do good!"

 

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

It does seem like Zelenskyy is doing everything he can to escalate the conflict to something more global which to me indicates he really does not have a good position despite all the "Ukraine is winning" propaganda that is coming out in the Western media.

There are 2 paradoxical narratives in the media right now:

• Russia is simultaneously an unstoppable war machine that will not end until all of Europe is conquered, yet at the same time, Russia's military is outdated, lacking morale, has joke weaponry only left over from the USSR, is running out of supplies due to logistics, etc. Both of these things can't be true at the same time and yet it's how the media reports things.
• Ukraine is simultaneously winning, beating ever single Russian attack that comes their way, including with grandmothers intercepting drones and rockets with pickle jars and farmers stealing Russian tanks, Ukraine has taken very few losses while Russia has taken enormous ones, they have unshakeable faith and motivation to fight, they are a 100% united front with zero internal issues like criminality, looting, deserters or other internal division. Yet at the same time, Ukraine needs a no fly zone and jets and even extra troops on the ground to beat Russia. Again, both of these things can't be true at the same time.

You don't even have to read opposing media sources, these contradictions are just being reported by the same people every day, seemingly unaware that what they're saying makes no sense.

 

Another thing the media has been doing nonstop is reporting rumors and "could be/might happen"s as 100% fact. And then when it actually doesn't come true some days later, the story is just completely dropped or it gets recycled again a few days later ("Russia will use chemical weapons"...."Russia is about to blow up/attack a nuke plant" etc etc.) To be honest, it's very tiresome and just like Covid, I think people will get sick of hearing the same hysteria over and over again, hype always dies down. When mass audiences start to lose interest in this war, I wonder what the next crisis-of-the-month will be?

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by millefleur

[MarJhi 963]

2 hours ago, Dashinka said:

I am not in support of Putin's actions, but this is no "good" vs "evil" fight.

This is a bad guy versus worse bad guy fight with a lot of innocent people (on both sides) being dragged into it.

[MarJhi 963]

13 minutes ago, millefleur said:

Absolutely no POW's, either from Russia or Ukraine or any country in any war, should be filmed and used for propaganda purposes. The chances that it's at best completely fake are high or at worst that these confessions were obtained via torture are very high. We simply don't know so this should really stop. It amazes me there hasn't been a massive outcry in the media about it yet. It baffles me that we went from the realist view of "War is hell" to "War is a black and white fight of good and evil and good will win and only ever do good!"

 

There are 2 paradoxical narratives in the media right now:

• Russia is simultaneously an unstoppable war machine that will not end until all of Europe is conquered, yet at the same time, Russia's military is outdated, lacking morale, has joke weaponry only left over from the USSR, is running out of supplies due to logistics, etc. Both of these things can't be true at the same time and yet it's how the media reports things.
• Ukraine is simultaneously winning, beating ever single Russian attack that comes their way, including with grandmothers intercepting drones and rockets with pickle jars and farmers stealing Russian tanks, Ukraine has taken very few losses while Russia has taken enormous ones, they have unshakeable faith and motivation to fight, they are a 100% united front with zero internal issues like criminality, looting, deserters or other internal division. Yet at the same time, Ukraine needs a no fly zone and jets and even extra troops on the ground to beat Russia. Again, both of these things can't be true at the same time.

You don't even have to read opposing media sources, these contradictions are just being reported by the same people every day, seemingly unaware that what they're saying makes no sense.

 

Another thing the media has been doing nonstop is reporting rumors and "could be/might happen"s as 100% fact. And then when it actually doesn't come true some days later, the story is just completely dropped or it gets recycled again a few days later ("Russia will use chemical weapons"...."Russia is about to blow up/attack a nuke plant" etc etc.) To be honest, it's very tiresome and just like Covid, I think people will get sick of hearing the same hysteria over and over again, hype always dies down. When mass audiences start to lose interest in this war, I wonder what the next crisis-of-the-month will be?

 

 

 

The whole "Putin wants to get the Soviet Union back together" narrative some in the media are pushing makes no sense to me. Russia doesn't have the finances, military capability or the manpower to hold it all together if they could even take those countries. They would have to have soldiers stationed in all of those countries indefinitely, they would be spread too thin. The ONLY way they could manage that is to have China or India help them.

[Dashinka 24,606]

1 hour ago, millefleur said:

 

 

Another thing the media has been doing nonstop is reporting rumors and "could be/might happen"s as 100% fact. And then when it actually doesn't come true some days later, the story is just completely dropped or it gets recycled again a few days later ("Russia will use chemical weapons"...."Russia is about to blow up/attack a nuke plant" etc etc.) To be honest, it's very tiresome and just like Covid, I think people will get sick of hearing the same hysteria over and over again, hype always dies down. When mass audiences start to lose interest in this war, I wonder what the next crisis-of-the-month will be?

 

 

 

Remember those assassination squads that were supposedly sent in to take out Zelenskyy?  That to me sounded a lot more like Ukrainian propaganda.

[millefleur 5,047]

13 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Remember those assassination squads that were supposedly sent in to take out Zelenskyy?  That to me sounded a lot more like Ukrainian propaganda.

Indeed that's another reoccurring story. It went from 3 attempts to 12 attempts, I just expect the number to keep growing exponentially as the war rages on.

 

Another one is "Ukraine doesn't have any neonazis" or basically acknowledging that they do but downplaying it completely, acting like it's now OK for your country to have some neonazis in it so long as it's just a little bit! And sometimes maybe you need neonazis on your team because they're good fighters! So, the media went from woke to broke on that one in a matter of days, amazing.

Edited March 15, 2022 by millefleur

[Ban Hammer 13,408]

having taken part in a no fly operation  - OPC/operation provide comfort (which was nicknamed operation provide cash) and which was later renamed to operation northern watch (this was the enforcement of the no  fly zone in northern iraq) , i am against imposition of a no fly zone for the following reasons which are in no particular order:

 

1.  imposition requires enforcement, and doing will mostly likely escalate tensions between nato and russia.

2.  imposition of a no fly zone means any active radars pose a threat. 

3. as both players in the zone operate the same equipment, suppression of said radars with anti radiation missiles and other means could destroy ukranian equipment and personnel.  if it is russian owned/operated, that could be considered an act of war.

4.  a sam/ADA trap can be used by russia to shoot down the planes enforcing the no fly zone.  

5.  when planes enforcing the zone are shot down, pilots can be captured and used as leverage.

6.  lost planes could be recovered by russia who will then use them as they have in the past to gain technical knowledge that increases their next generation of planes and can reveal vulnerabilities on our own planes.

7.  any attempts at recovery of downed pilots by the rescue forces presents russia with an even greater opportunity to capture those rescue forces/ or exacerbate the situation via a firefight between russian units and the rescue forces.

 

also, friendly fire does occur during a no fly zone.  eagle flight happened just before i was there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Ban Hammer

[millefleur 5,047]

How everyone thinks a no fly zone works:

 

How it actually works:

What Charles just said. Great answer!!! And thank you for your service. o7

[TBoneTX 45,550]

Gracias and gracias, Charles.

[Boiler 45,689]

 

[millefleur 5,047]

Interesting theory there about how if NATO got involved and established a no fly zone, it gives Putin what he wants. Maybe not what we wants, but would certainly vindicate his position that NATO is an aggressive alliance who wants war with Russia.

 

I still don't get why Zelensky is calling it for it. Even NATO today has firmly said: no way. Maybe we'll send some more weapons/defense systems if there's an easy way to do so, but I assume the jets still remain off the table despite Zelensky's wishes.