When to disclose Lien(s)

[Punisher 40]

1 minute ago, payxibka said:

Where you report "liens" or anything reported "net of liens"

There is no line for "liens" but if you are i.e. claiming assets then these should be net(equity) value. If there is a lien on that asset (and it may be really easy to find out) then it's value is affected and if you fail to provide documentation then you fail to determine net asset value.
 

Similarly, I guess, if there is child alimony payment, then one should deduct that from their current income they are claiming on 864.

 

[payxibka 10,044]

9 minutes ago, Punisher said:

There is no line for "liens" but if you are i.e. claiming assets then these should be net(equity) value. If there is a lien on that asset (and it may be really easy to find out) then it's value is affected and if you fail to provide documentation then you fail to determine net asset value.
 

Similarly, I guess, if there is child alimony payment, then one should deduct that from their current income they are claiming on 864.

 

Income is reported gross not net.  Under your theory you would also deduct income taxes,  social security contributions,  home mortgages, auto loans, other debt service requirements,  etc.  Where you have a legal or contractual obligation to make payments.  Where do you stop?

 

No where in the instructions to they ask you to net your income.   SInce this information is not requested, you cannot  possibly perjure yourself.

Edited July 6, 2020 by payxibka

[Punisher 40]

10 minutes ago, Mintosman said:

I do know for a fact they gave an RFE at the Interview stage of a friend who had his house foreclosed on. They saw an unpaid debt of $235k and wanted to know more about it. Now, I am not sure if they found that because he had filed bankruptcy or not but he had to submit proof of the balance being cleared in the bankruptcy. This was in 2015 and the issue dated back to 2011. So, in 2015 they were looking at that stuff. Hence, my original concern.

It would be interesting to know how they found out about it. He might have claimed that hause as an asset and then later when 864 was Adjudicated they found out the foreclosure info (really easy, just go to clerk of court's website and voilla).

 

On a separate note, many mortgages are non-recourse and in that case one can walk off (aka give back the keys) and forget about any oustanding loan. This is not something AO would make a guess on and in such case would need to be explained that way.

[Mintosman 11]

Just now, Punisher said:

It would be interesting to know how they found out about it. He might have claimed that hause as an asset and then later when 864 was Adjudicated they found out the foreclosure info (really easy, just go to clerk of court's website and voilla).

 

On a separate note, many mortgages are non-recourse and in that case one can walk off (aka give back the keys) and forget about any oustanding loan. This is not something AO would make a guess on and in such case would need to be explained that way.

He didn't claim the house. He didn't even mention the Bankruptcy. I know because I help him submit all his documents. We were perplexed on how they found out. Again, since this was back in 2015 it has me a little worried. 

[Punisher 40]

7 minutes ago, payxibka said:

Income is reported gross not net.  Under your theory you would also deduct income taxes,  social security contributions,  home mortgages, auto loans, other debt service requirements,  etc.  Where you have a legal or contractual obligation to make payments.  Where do you stop?

 

No where in the instructions to they ask you to net your income.   SInce this information is not requested, you cannot  possibly perjure yourself.

I don't understand why is it so hard for you to grasp what I said but it may be beneficial if you please read my comments as I write them and avoid adding or extrapolating things I have never said.

I said clearly that IF you claim assets on 864 THEN these must be net/equity value. 
 

that means that if you don't claim them on 864 then don't need to worry about net value. 

 

Hope that is clear enough for you, if not, I have nothing further to add besides that SS contributions are not deductible from total/gross income as they are not part of the total income to begin with!

[Punisher 40]

14 minutes ago, Mintosman said:

He didn't claim the house. He didn't even mention the Bankruptcy. I know because I help him submit all his documents. We were perplexed on how they found out. Again, since this was back in 2015 it has me a little worried. 

Since it was his place, I'm sure he stated it as his address. Perhaps even spouse was listed as a co-owner to show co-mingling of fin resourses. Or it was claimed as part of "domicile prof". Anyways, it wouldn't be extraordinary to run a quick check and just stumble on this information.

 

Also consider they areor  might be running backgroud checks and would find that out as well. Could they be running credit checks just to see if they stumble across something else (not credit score)? Not impossible...

[Mintosman 11]

 

 

28 minutes ago, Punisher said:

Since it was his place, I'm sure he stated it as his address. Perhaps even spouse was listed as a co-owner to show co-mingling of fin resourses. Or it was claimed as part of "domicile prof". Anyways, it wouldn't be extraordinary to run a quick check and just stumble on this information.

 

Also consider they areor  might be running backgroud checks and would find that out as well. Could they be running credit checks just to see if they stumble across something else (not credit score)? Not impossible...

It was a former residence with his ex-wife. It wasn't listed in any of his information as it was all dismissed in their bankruptcy. So there is nothing that was submitted to the CO or NVC that would have disclosed this. So, the only way they could have found out is they did some research on their own accord. He hired an attorney, provided proof of the foreclosure being settled in bankruptcy and they approved his case. So, it wasn't a big deal other than someone at the Embassy was digging into something from his past that was NOT in his application. It wasn't an asset, it was only referred to as a previous address. Due to the divorce, he didn't even have assets beyond his personal vehicle. 

[payxibka 10,044]

47 minutes ago, Punisher said:

I don't understand why is it so hard for you to grasp what I said but it may be beneficial if you please read my comments as I write them and avoid adding or extrapolating things I have never said.

I said clearly that IF you claim assets on 864 THEN these must be net/equity value. 
 

that means that if you don't claim them on 864 then don't need to worry about net value. 

 

Hope that is clear enough for you, if not, I have nothing further to add besides that SS contributions are not deductible from total/gross income as they are not part of the total income to begin with!

Maybe beneficial for you to read what you posted.  You stated that a lien against income or child support needs to be subtracted.

 

SS contributions are ABSOLUTELY included in total income shown on say a W2.

[geowrian 22,335]

As a note, a wage garnishment would not impact one's current income as listed on the I-864, but it certainly can be a factor in the public charge decision.

[pushbrk 12,110]

IRS tax liens will be known of by the Consular Officer.  The impact is that current income is reduced by the amount of the lien.  Justification is that the IRS can enforce the lien against the current income and against liquid assets.

 

This can be overcome by having a tax remediation agent negotiate a settlement and payment plan with IRS, then show that the person is actually keeping the payment arrangement.

 

My statements apply only to IRS tax liens.  No other liens are relevant unless using lienable assets to qualify.

[pushbrk 12,110]

4 hours ago, Punisher said:

I have nothing further to add besides that SS contributions are not deductible from total/gross income as they are not part of the total income to begin with!

An employee's SS contributions definitely ARE deducted from gross income.  You'll see that on an employee pay stub and on W2 forms.

[Duke & Marie 1,389]

5 hours ago, pushbrk said:

IRS tax liens will be known of by the Consular Officer.  The impact is that current income is reduced by the amount of the lien.  Justification is that the IRS can enforce the lien against the current income and against liquid assets.

 

This can be overcome by having a tax remediation agent negotiate a settlement and payment plan with IRS, then show that the person is actually keeping the payment arrangement.

 

My statements apply only to IRS tax liens.  

How would that work if the irs lean amount is greater than annual income and liquid assets? Oh wait payment plan, right answered my own question 🙈

[pushbrk 12,110]

2 hours ago, Duke & Marie said:

How would that work if the irs lean amount is greater than annual income and liquid assets? Oh wait payment plan, right answered my own question 🙈

Yes, it's possible the lien can result in a negative income, requiring a joint sponsor.  The key is to get IRS to remove/release the lien based on the negotiation and actual payment of the agreed amounts.  Until the lien is gone, it counts against you.  Once it IS gone, tax debt is no different than any other debt, as it relates to the affidavit of support.

[SalishSea 16,770]

13 hours ago, Mintosman said:

He didn't claim the house. He didn't even mention the Bankruptcy. I know because I help him submit all his documents. We were perplexed on how they found out. Again, since this was back in 2015 it has me a little worried. 

Why not just try to pay off your debts?

[pushbrk 12,110]

14 hours ago, Punisher said:

Similarly, I guess, if there is child alimony payment, then one should deduct that from their current income they are claiming on 864.

 

Missed this error.  You guess incorrectly.  One does not deduct child support or alimony from their current income, but the children for whom the child support is paid, are counted in the household size.  All unmarried children under 21 no matter where they live.

 

This is where your lack of understanding the big picture and how things fit together, causes errors in your interpretation and subsequent advice.