"Trump did not Betray the Kurds"

[luckytxn 2,263]

4 hours ago, OriZ said:

Protection from what, exactly? The Kurds in northern Syria have done nothing to them unless you have any recent example for me?  it's a vastly different situation than any of the other ones you have compared it to. When was the last time Israel uprooted hundreds of thousands of civilians and killed hundreds of people in a matter of a week, even when having to deal with real, not made up, threats coming outta Gaza and the West bank? There is zero justification for what turkey is doing. Anyone with a conscience can see that

Well Turkey is saying they are and I will believe them before I believe you. The U.S. has trained the Kurds and given them weapons and money. And again like we did for Taliban and ISIS they went and sent some what Turkey has called terrorists into Turkey causing problems. Turkey is allowed to protect themselves like any country. And yes we know Israel would never uproot and bomb and force people off their lands right? The Kurds and Turkey hate each other and they need to do what they want to each other and the U.S. needs to get out and come home. Let them settle this on their own terms. The U.S. has nothing to do with this or the region at all. It doesn't involve us in the least so again why should we spend a fortune and cost American lives there? Europe is way closer than  the U.S. to the region let them intervene if any are needed.

4 hours ago, OriZ said:

You can make fun of wikipedia. There are many other sources out there, in fact, many of them are used in wikipedia, magic! Have you ever actually tried to submit something to wikipedia? Do you know how difficult it is and how ####### the reviewers are? Do you know how many good, neutral sources you need to back up everything you write? Well let me tell you, I know. Which actually makes it one of the best sources out there for summaries of information that has been corroborated with many sources.

 

Here's something about spying 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/29/why-america-spies-on-its-allies-and-probably-should/

Wiki is not a great source by a long shot. Can't read washington post as I have Adblock. Israel spies on the U.S. like an enemy and sends out death squads to assassinate enemies of their state and has killed Americans performing surveillance off their coast.

1 hour ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

Obama did draw a line in the sand

He did?" When did he do that? Maybe when he bought his 3rd mansion last week. He and Hillary left a chit hole for others to finish.

1 hour ago, Neonred said:

I really would have thought taking the troops out of Afghanistan would have made more sense. 

Eight times as many troops there and it's never going to improve.

For sure take them out of Afghanistan because after 18 years there it ain't going to get better. Take them out totally of the middle east. We have no reason to be there except for oil and we have more oil than most and enough to supply us for many decades right here or near us.

[OriZ 3,157]

2 hours ago, luckytxn said:

Well Turkey is saying they are and I will believe them before I believe you. The U.S. has trained the Kurds and given them weapons and money. And again like we did for Taliban and ISIS they went and sent some what Turkey has called terrorists into Turkey causing problems. Turkey is allowed to protect themselves like any country. And yes we know Israel would never uproot and bomb and force people off their lands right? The Kurds and Turkey hate each other and they need to do what they want to each other and the U.S. needs to get out and come home. Let them settle this on their own terms. The U.S. has nothing to do with this or the region at all. It doesn't involve us in the least so again why should we spend a fortune and cost American lives there? Europe is way closer than  the U.S. to the region let them intervene if any are needed.

Wiki is not a great source by a long shot. Can't read washington post as I have Adblock. Israel spies on the U.S. like an enemy and sends out death squads to assassinate enemies of their state and has killed Americans performing surveillance off their coast.

He did?" When did he do that? Maybe when he bought his 3rd mansion last week. He and Hillary left a chit hole for others to finish.

For sure take them out of Afghanistan because after 18 years there it ain't going to get better. Take them out totally of the middle east. We have no reason to be there except for oil and we have more oil than most and enough to supply us for many decades right here or near us.

"Well turkey is saying they are" lol that's a good one. Still waiting for that example on Israel too. And your insistence on repeating libel despite being proven wrong shows not only do you not really know the region at all, you also clearly hate and are biased again Israel and the jewish people. That's my takeaway from this waste of time...until next time...

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

11 hours ago, OriZ said:

, and the only one willing to do anything about them anymore is Israel...hey would you look at that, another benefit!

What has Israel done for the Kurds?

[OriZ 3,157]

9 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

What has Israel done for the Kurds?

Israel can't do much for the Kurds, I was referring to doing something against the axis of evil in this region. Israel was the first country in the world to support Kurdish independence, it has also provided humanitarian aid and bought oil from them. However, specific to this case while it said it will again support them in every way it can, it can not intervene militarily, and the Kurds say that themselves. Not because it doesn't want to(there was actually a letter written by dozens of officers saying they're willing), but for the Kurds' own safety. See, because Israel is hated by many in the region, if they knew the magnitude of relationship between Israel and the Kurds it carries the risk of being used against them. When they had their referendum for independence form Iraq a few years back and an overwhelming majority voted in favor, when they celebrated many were waving Israeli flags. This actually enraged Iran, Iraq, and Turkey(Erdogan went as far as blaming the mossad) so most of the cooperation is not done in public. 

 

Couple more links from two of this forum's favorite sources:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan–Israel_relations

 

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/middleeast/iraqi-kurdistan-israel-support/index.html

[Dashinka 23,245]

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 10:49 AM, OriZ said:

Strength doesn't cause wars, weakness does. "Sacrificed" is an interesting way to put it...there would have been many ways to deter Erdogan from following through if there was will, without it coming to that. And if it came to that, Erdogan would need to know the severity of the consequences would have the potential to topple his regime(someone please tell me, why is this debacle still a member of NATO?). 

 

Backing down because a murderer is threatening you is totally the backwards decision to make, that's a no brainer. You don't need to be afraid of Turkey. Is Israel afraid of Russia? It has attacked in Syria hundreds of times despite the Russians being opposed to it. Has it led to war with Russia? No. Although I promise you if that was the price to pay so be it. Some lines you just can't let others cross or you're pretty much done. A backbone is incredibly important, especially in the Middle East.

Going back and re-reading.  This, the highlighted part, is something the US is not very good at.  Didn't Assad essentially beat back the Syrian rebels with the help of the Kurds?  No regime change there?  This whole area is a complete mess where a scorecard would not even help to understand who is fighting who. 

[OriZ 3,157]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

Going back and re-reading.  This, the highlighted part, is something the US is not very good at.  Didn't Assad essentially beat back the Syrian rebels with the help of the Kurds?  No regime change there?  This whole area is a complete mess where a scorecard would not even help to understand who is fighting who. 

No, he only beat back the rebels with the help of Russia due to the US' hands off approach. The Kurds worked against Isis, but that had nothing to do with assisting Assad. In fact, one of the saddest facets of this whole fiasco, besides the humanitarian tragedy, is that after finally separating from Assad and being able to form their own autonomy, they now had to turn to him for help with fighting off the Turkish and turkish supported barbarists due to the US' betrayal.

Edited October 15, 2019 by OriZ

[Dashinka 23,245]

3 hours ago, OriZ said:

No, he only beat back the rebels with the help of Russia due to the US' hands off approach. The Kurds worked against Isis, but that had nothing to do with assisting Assad. In fact, one of the saddest facets of this whole fiasco, besides the humanitarian tragedy, is that after finally separating from Assad and being able to form their own autonomy, they now had to turn to him for help with fighting off the Turkish and turkish supported barbarists due to the US' betrayal.

Like I said, a complete mess.  I thought someone mentioned, or maybe I read it somewhere else, why did the referendum by the Kurds in Iraq never get implemented?

[Ban Hammer 12,837]

[luckytxn 2,263]

22 hours ago, OriZ said:

"Well turkey is saying they are" lol that's a good one. Still waiting for that example on Israel too. And your insistence on repeating libel despite being proven wrong shows not only do you not really know the region at all, you also clearly hate and are biased again Israel and the jewish people. That's my takeaway from this waste of time...until next time...

Don't have to know the region to want my brother troops brought home and all troops worldwide brought home. It is your own opinion I hate Israel and Jews as I don't. Keep saying I do will not make it true. I do believe that we have no business in the middle east at all and there is no American interests we need to be protecting that requires we need to spend our fortunes there or shed our blood. We have our own needs here and people want universal health care and monies spent here on Americans and not foreign lands and peoples. If we can lessen the needs to be the worlds policeman then our need to spend outrageous sums of money will decrease. That is good for us here. Screw the middle east and America is way more important to me than Israel or Palestine of any place in the middle east. Let turkey and the Kurds do as they will. The only way to stop this bloodshed is if we stay forever. Screw them all.

[luckytxn 2,263]

58 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

That is funny.

[Duke & Marie 1,389]

Personally, I think Trump has way more intel than us...and we can speculate thanks to the various forms of media as to weather he’s done the right thing or not until the cows come home, because let’s face it, media doesn’t have its own agenda right?

 

do I think the US abandoned them? No... do I think pulling US troops was a good idea, yes, because getting stuck in the middle of cross fire is never a good thing.. particularly when you can’t truely trust either side.

 

Wars over territory have been going on for thousands of years, and both countries have a right to do as they so choose, no other countries should intervene or stipulate what they can/can’t do.. yes there are rules of war, but it seems they only ever apply to one side... let them deal with it themselves.

 

nothing good comes from war, only tears and bloodshed, trump should be commended for putting the well-being of US people first.. I as a vet, thank him for this

[luckytxn 2,263]

8 minutes ago, Duke & Marie said:

Personally, I think Trump has way more intel than us...and we can speculate thanks to the various forms of media as to weather he’s done the right thing or not until the cows come home, because let’s face it, media doesn’t have its own agenda right?

 

do I think the US abandoned them? No... do I think pulling US troops was a good idea, yes, because getting stuck in the middle of cross fire is never a good thing.. particularly when you can’t truely trust either side.

 

Wars over territory have been going on for thousands of years, and both countries have a right to do as they so choose, no other countries should intervene or stipulate what they can/can’t do.. yes there are rules of war, but it seems they only ever apply to one side... let them deal with it themselves.

 

nothing good comes from war, only tears and bloodshed, trump should be commended for putting the well-being of US people first.. I as a vet, thank him for this

Thanks for your service. I am a vet also and want all my brother and sister soldiers brought home. It is time and we have done more than enough. My sister last year has come back from her 6th deployment and I still mourn my Nephew who gave his all. I loved him and he asked to go with him to the recruiters as when he was young he loved seeing me in uniform. I still hate I didn't talk him out of it and my sis in law still hates me after 10 years. How much blood do we have to give? And we have a foreigner here saying we should keep on giving and paying. Soldiers understand what this is about.

[Duke & Marie 1,389]

39 minutes ago, luckytxn said:

Thanks for your service. I am a vet also and want all my brother and sister soldiers brought home. It is time and we have done more than enough. My sister last year has come back from her 6th deployment and I still mourn my Nephew who gave his all. I loved him and he asked to go with him to the recruiters as when he was young he loved seeing me in uniform. I still hate I didn't talk him out of it and my sis in law still hates me after 10 years. How much blood do we have to give? And we have a foreigner here saying we should keep on giving and paying. Soldiers understand what this is about.

Sorry for your loss.. But unfortunately we must accept, until those who have never served actually do, I fear their opinions about policing the wars of other countries will not change, so is not something to let upset us 😉

 

the saddiest part of all, those who are uneducated and without factual intelligence or experience have no idea just how many people are sent to wars involving countries to which most people have never heard of, let alone knew a war was raging... we can’t fight them all.

 

edit... the USA and it’s alley are not international police... and who are we to say who can own what land? It’s not our place...

Edited October 16, 2019 by Duke & Marie

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

In Ori's defense, I believe he served in the military also.  I'm sure he will correct me if this is inaccurate.

 

I, too, think Trump did the right thing.  We have nowhere enough troops on the ground to make a difference in the region.  Had we interfered, it would have been like a suicide mission.

 

And I agree with @luckytxn that we need to bring all our troops home from the middle East.   We have no business there.  The locals have been killing each other for thousands of years before we were even a country.  Let them sort it out.

[OriZ 3,157]

7 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Like I said, a complete mess.  I thought someone mentioned, or maybe I read it somewhere else, why did the referendum by the Kurds in Iraq never get implemented?

Because everywhere they go they're met with resistance, they are the largest persecuted nation-less minority in the world today...something like 30 million people, which is why I think there are strong ties with Jewish people and most Jews can identify with them very well. So they pretty much got squashed any time they tried.