I-129F Denied

[bigdog 376]

The Philippines have their own rules an regulations as you found out. You might consult a reputable attorney who is familial with dealing with issues like this.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

No No my eye.

CENOMAR etcetera has never been a requirement until interview.

I think the OP didn't understand his RFE.

I was using the CENOMAR as an example of a country specific requirement for the visa, not as the answer to the RFE.

He didn't prove she was "free to marry" because by Philippine law she's not "free to marry" at her age without her parents consent... that's what I was trying to get at. I was tired and that's my excuse

[M_&_R 77]

I'm not understanding how the CENOMAR isn't required until the interview. For the I129-F, you have to prove that you're both free to marry. In my case, we are both divorced. We had to show the divorce decrees to prove that we were both free to marry. Why wouldn't anyone else have to also show proof that they're single? They only require proof if you're divorced, if you were never married they take your word for it? I suppose that's possible. Does USCIS handle petitions with Filipino beneficiaries differently? I wouldn't have thought so. Bottom line, it's critical to the I129-F to prove that you are "free to marry." And yes that means by the laws of your own country - otherwise they wouldn't require proof of divorce from my fiance, would they?

As for the examples of things that are legal in other countries and not in the US, of course that doesn't mean the foreign laws apply to the US - you have to meet legal requirements of *both* countries, not "one or the other".

M

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Re: "free to marry"

I'm now not as confident that this is the correct answer...

For example if a Filipina has married before then they can never obtain a I-129F visa because divorce is illegal in the Philippines. They can never be "free to marry" in their native country. But we know this isn't the case.

Honestly, without actually seeing the original RFE we can't be sure what you did wrong. You didn't keep a copy ANYWHERE? You should have a copy of every document ever sent or received during this process. And hold on to them even after (if) she becomes a USC. I think it's 7 years or something. You want to be sure that if any questions ever arise you have everything. Because citizenship CAN be revoked under certain circumstances and within a certain timeframe.

I suggest you speak with someone else who filed for someone from the Philippines (recently) and received their NOA2. Maybe if you see what they sent and send what they sent it would help. AND if you get an RFE again, ask here, or speak to a lawyer. USCIS doesn't play games.. as you found out.

[carton025 38]

As you had stated earlier, the following was included within the RFE:

"Among the phrases in the request for evidence letter:

- "According to the Family Code of the Philippines..."

- "Please provide a local civil registered parental consent stating that the beneficiary is free to marry according to Philippines laws.""

In the future please, keep in mind that you are dealing with a very "structured process" that the USCIS is following. And, yes I know you are NOT marrying in the Phil., but you are petitioning a very young woman, age 19, that is going to need that letter of parental consent - you should have gotten that letter and included it with the RFE. I believe you do realize now that is what the USCIS was asking for. I believe this letter would have provided the USCIS with needed documentation that was going to be required by the Phil. Government, CFO, or whoever... and this letter would have met the requirement(s) of the RFE.

Hindsight is 20 - 20. Best of luck!

[Grant PDX 183]

The letter is not normally required at this stage. It is frequently discussed on this board as something the CFO might require, but doesn't always. Every gatekeeper is this process has lattitude to request whatever they want. We ignore those requests to our own detriment. I somethings think the requests are out of line, not lawful, or unreasonable; however, ignoring them isn't really an option.

There are very many petitions for Filipina fiancees that did not include the parental guidance letters. In fact I don't think anyone includes them with the petition. It's unfortunate that this particular adjudicator wanted that info. It doesn't seem reasonable, maybe something else is going on. But if it's requested, even if we think it's unreasonable, we need to provide it. Yes, I hate that fact that the gatekeepers can make that kind or request a requirement, but we can't just ignore it.

The letters themselves are sometimes required at the CFO stage, but not always. The medical gives immunizations sometimes even if there is proof they've already been given. Some folks say that the US doesn't require certain procedures (i.e. some immunizations, chest x-ray when pregnant, etc.) and we certainly can decline them if the local medical says they're required, but we pay the price for that (denial). There are a lot of requests we can disagree with at many stages. We can certainly decline or fight any we choose to. However, as difficult as it can be to get a request that is unexpected, rare, or just outright ludicrous, we really have no option but comply and likely get approved or fight and almost certainly get a denial of the visa.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Grant PDX

[del-2-5-2014 1,339]

The letter is not normally required at this stage. It is frequently discussed on this board as something the CFO might require, but doesn't always. Every gatekeeper is this process has lattitude to request whatever they want. We ignore those requests to our own detriment. I somethings think the requests are out of line, not lawful, or unreasonable; however, ignoring them isn't really an option.

There are very many petitions for Filipina fiancees that did not include the parental guidance letters. In fact I don't think anyone includes them with the petition. It's unfortunate that this particular adjudicator wanted that info. It doesn't seem reasonable, maybe something else is going on. But if it's requested, even if we think it's unreasonable, we need to provide it. Yes, I hate that fact that the gatekeepers can make that kind or request a requirement, but we can't just ignore it.

The letters themselves are sometimes required at the CFO stage, but not always. The medical gives immunizations sometimes even if there is proof they've already been given. Some folks say that the US doesn't require certain procedures (i.e. some immunizations, chest x-ray when pregnant, etc.) and we certainly can decline them if the local medical says they're required, but we pay the price for that (denial). There are a lot of requests we can disagree with at many stages. We can certainly decline or fight any we choose to. However, as difficult as it can be to get a request that is unexpected, rare, or just outright ludicrous, we really have no option but comply and likely get approved or fight and almost certainly get a denial of the visa.

We think alike. I know my Fiancee doesn't need to get immunizations but thePanel Doctor was not going to see her unless she did. So we did adn we are now straight.

I liken this to being stopped by a Policeman while driving and he asks for your license and registration. You have a choice:

1) Hello Officer, here are the documents that you are requesting or

2) How dare you ask me for that?

Which answer is going to get you quickly on your way?

[him4life 13]

well they asked u for something and u bypassed their request and sent what you felt like sending and not what they requested, the response u sent had a tone to it sounding like u were telling them how to do their job, when u are dealing with these people u have to do what they want so u can get a satisfied outcome, like it or not they are in authority and they make the decisions, so just lay low and give them what they want, unless the parents of the 19 yr old are unwilling to sign, a friend of mine sent everything with her package, she got a rfe to send in some stuff she already sent, all she simply did was to copy the stuff and sent them again, she did not write a letter telling them she already sent the stuff,

good luck with your appeal

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Really, this is all just idle speculation.

You've got a guy here who didn't even care enough about what he was supposed to do to keep a copy of the request. And we have his story of what he thought the request was. Then, he shows us his answer to what he thought they wanted (it was sort of a condescending response too - I think - not really written in a way to get what you want). Then he's PO'd that he didn't get the approval he wanted.

It's like he said/she said (only worse) because we are only getting one side of the story!!

[Ayman___ 92]

I got a RFE they say what they need with explanation So it would say Age Requirement and explain it in the RFE EXAMPLE .

Foreign Document marriage certificate for xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx is required to validate the legal marriage.The petitioner merely submitted the English translation of the marriage certificate without the foreign marriage document.Therefor please submit a legible copy of the requested document in it's original language.

another one requesting if our parents on both sides were aware we are from different religions,with explanation and what to get .And for us we are grown ups we was like our parents but we did it and sent what they asked for even if that didn't make sense in our minds, and was approved so bottom line age requirement would have explained what they wanted and what exactly you needed to get ...sorry but I'm trying to help you GOOD LUCK to you and yours

[ca_babe 129]

We think alike. I know my Fiancee doesn't need to get immunizations but thePanel Doctor was not going to see her unless she did. So we did adn we are now straight.

I liken this to being stopped by a Policeman while driving and he asks for your license and registration. You have a choice:

1) Hello Officer, here are the documents that you are requesting or

2) How dare you ask me for that?

Which answer is going to get you quickly on your way?

I'd answer 1. The officer has a gun. USCIS don't.

[Caryh 5,206]

Really, this is all just idle speculation.

You've got a guy here who didn't even care enough about what he was supposed to do to keep a copy of the request. And we have his story of what he thought the request was. Then, he shows us his answer to what he thought they wanted (it was sort of a condescending response too - I think - not really written in a way to get what you want). Then he's PO'd that he didn't get the approval he wanted.

It's like he said/she said (only worse) because we are only getting one side of the story!!

This is exactly what I was thinking. And if they wanted is what he thinks they wanted, he failed to give that to them, so of course theres a denial. You get one shot at an RFE, you give them what they want or get denied. I had an RFE also, and called USCIS customer service for advice because I thought they had all they needed and I provided all I thought was required. The Customer Service agent said to send everything you sent before, maybe they lost or over looked it, plus send even more evidence. I followed that advice and we had our NOA2 within a few days of my response getting to them. I could have said I sent that already, but I be we would have gotten a denial then. You can't win an argument with USCIS, because all they have to do is issue you a denial letter and you've lost even if you were in the right. It sucks but its just the way the system works.

[TnJ 131]

In your post where you pasted your reply to the RFE, the Philippines Family Code was cited by USCIS. You can argue about the US going out of what is required, but this is exactly what is required! According to the Philippines, this is what determines one of their citizens "FREE TO MARRY". The US acknowledges customs or laws in which the foreign beneficiary belongs to. In order for a petition to be approved, the couple must be free to marry. She is not a US citizen/resident. US laws alone do not determine if she is free to marry. I'm sorry to hear about this, but you know now that you must give them what they request. They only accept compliance to an RFE.

[TnJ 131]

I'm not understanding how the CENOMAR isn't required until the interview. For the I129-F, you have to prove that you're both free to marry. In my case, we are both divorced. We had to show the divorce decrees to prove that we were both free to marry. Why wouldn't anyone else have to also show proof that they're single? They only require proof if you're divorced, if you were never married they take your word for it? I suppose that's possible. Does USCIS handle petitions with Filipino beneficiaries differently? I wouldn't have thought so. Bottom line, it's critical to the I129-F to prove that you are "free to marry." And yes that means by the laws of your own country - otherwise they wouldn't require proof of divorce from my fiance, would they?

As for the examples of things that are legal in other countries and not in the US, of course that doesn't mean the foreign laws apply to the US - you have to meet legal requirements of *both* countries, not "one or the other".

M

You have good questions. I question the same really. As others mentioned, usually, parental consent/advice is not even asked for with a petition. However, it could be because the Philippines Family Code requires any Filipino citizen ages 18-21 to have consent in order to marry and ages 21-24 need advice. The government has two templates for both. I don't think USCIS handles it any differently from any other. All petitions go through the same process. Country of citizenship is taken into consideration though. We know this just by what some MENA members have to go through. This is usually at the interview stage though. Why the CENOMAR wouldn't be asked for in OPs case as well, I am not sure. Why it isn't asked for for any of us until the interview stage, I am not sure except that USCIS can run all necessary background checks. However, like you said, if one must show divorce records with the petition, why wouldn't they need to show a document that shows one is free to marry if the beneficiary's government provides such a document? Some things don't always make sense, but an RFE should never be disregarded even if it doesn't make sense to us.

Edited October 16, 2012 by ToddnJessa

[khwaidee1 196]

What they were demanding exceeded their statutory authority. In other words, it was unlawful.

Their authority is granted by Congress under Title 8 of the United States Code. They can't simply make stuff up and then deny citizens because they want to. If a petitioner fully complies with all the applicable statutes then the petition must be granted.

And remember, the request from the CSC was different from the instructions on the Form I-129F.

A few months ago there was a poster here who was going to sue the USCIS for some greivance, good luck with that. While you may be 100% correct, wouldn't it be easier to give them what they want so you get what you want? I don't thinking citing constitutional law to a government cubicle worker will advance your position very well but, I could be wrong. If you could show a denial of due process you may have a case. I reckon a good constituional law attorney will run you about $400.00 an hour.

As an aside, when we submitted our Packet 3 we submitted a "Free to Marry" certificate and a certified translation. It is "technically" only required in Thailand when you have been married before or have children out of wedlock, neither which applied to my wife. However, I was not going to take any chances and since it was listed on the instruction sheet we were provided with our Packet 3 we gave them one just to be sure.

Edited October 16, 2012 by khwaidee1