border jumpers

[Dan T 8]

The number one irrigated crop in this country are lawns. How many people protest about green lawns in california or golf courses in arizona? How do you feed the hundreds of millions of people in the world without corporate farms?

research the great american dust bin/bowl and you will answer your own question. I have no issue with corporate farms but I do have issue with sustainability practices that most corporate farmers ignore. It will bite us in the ####### eventually and will result in a natural measure of population control taken by this earth against its inhabitants. Self preservation is my primary motivator and unrestricted immigration conflicts with it as it relates to food supply.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

research the great american dust bin/bowl and you will answer your own question. I have no issue with corporate farms but I do have issue with sustainability practices that most corporate farmers ignore. It will bite us in the ####### eventually and will result in a natural measure of population control taken by this earth against its inhabitants. Self preservation is my primary motivator and unrestricted immigration conflicts with it as it relates to food supply.

Illegal immigration will eventually cause harm to our food supply? Please! This thread started off with a question, how do you feel about illegal immigrants who jumped the border when we fought through the legal process. My answer is, obviously it is wrong, and not fair. But truth be told, there is no cost effective way to enforce our current laws, and it is wrong to not consider some sort of alternative to attempting to do so in a jack booted thug manner.

Would it be unfair to give illegals some sort of amnesty and path to legal residence? Yes. Is life always fair? No.

[Pooky 3,348]

Illegal immigration will eventually cause harm to our food supply? Please! This thread started off with a question, how do you feel about illegal immigrants who jumped the border when we fought through the legal process. My answer is, obviously it is wrong, and not fair. But truth be told, there is no cost effective way to enforce our current laws, and it is wrong to not consider some sort of alternative to attempting to do so in a jack booted thug manner.

Would it be unfair to give illegals some sort of amnesty and path to legal residence? Yes. Is life always fair? No.

To enforce the law overnight would indeed be cost-prohibitive. But successive administrations have been loath to even try enforcing the law in a meaningful manner. Beginning with the employers and given time, enforcing the current laws would have a noticeable effect on the numbers of illegals in this country and their incentive to come to this country.

I also disagree on singling out the employers for enforcement. If illegal aliens are identified, then they should also face enforcement of our current laws, including deportation. We don't need to enact draconian additional measures, the law of the land currently allows sufficient powers to work on the problem, if the political will is there.

I agree that life is unfair. Illegal aliens should not expect the laws of this country to change to accommodate them. They knew the risks when they came here, to themselves and their families. They should not expect anything other than the laws of this land to apply to them.

And Americans should expect their elected representatives to enforce the laws, instead of pandering to their financiers and potential voters.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

To enforce the law overnight would indeed be cost-prohibitive. But successive administrations have been loath to even try enforcing the law in a meaningful manner. Beginning with the employers and given time, enforcing the current laws would have a noticeable effect on the numbers of illegals in this country and their incentive to come to this country.

I also disagree on singling out the employers for enforcement. If illegal aliens are identified, then they should also face enforcement of our current laws, including deportation. We don't need to enact draconian additional measures, the law of the land currently allows sufficient powers to work on the problem, if the political will is there.

I agree that life is unfair. Illegal aliens should not expect the laws of this country to change to accommodate them. They knew the risks when they came here, to themselves and their families. They should not expect anything other than the laws of this land to apply to them.

And Americans should expect their elected representatives to enforce the laws, instead of pandering to their financiers and potential voters.

I would agree with most of the things you expressed. This situation has built up over time, and won't be easily fixed overnight. It should also be pointed out, that while we are talking about a 'crime' in the case of most illegals jumping the border. During the border jump, they are committing a criminal act. But with regards to being in our country illegally, post border jump, we are also talking about a civil violation, something on the order of speeding or failing to stop at a stop sign. Somewhat more serious than that, but not on the order of violent crime nor a violation of our criminal code, which those who can't see past "They are here illegally" never seem to be able to comprehend.

Deportation, especially in the face of the fact so many just come right back, is not really a sustainable solution even were it technically possible. It really isn't.

[Pooky 3,348]

I would agree with most of the things you expressed. This situation has built up over time, and won't be easily fixed overnight. It should also be pointed out, that while we are talking about a 'crime' in the case of most illegals jumping the border. During the border jump, they are committing a criminal act. But with regards to being in our country illegally, post border jump, we are also talking about a civil violation, something on the order of speeding or failing to stop at a stop sign. Somewhat more serious than that, but not on the order of violent crime nor a violation of our criminal code, which those who can't see past "They are here illegally" never seem to be able to comprehend.

Deportation, especially in the face of the fact so many just come right back, is not really a sustainable solution even were it technically possible. It really isn't.

Which is why prosecuting the employers who flout the law is the first step. Removing the incentive to come here in the first place will dramatically reduce the incidence of illegal immigration. But the political will needs to be there, and right now both parties have been pandering to the employers and the illegal aliens for partisan political reasons. The American public deserve having their elected representatives think about them for a change.

[Dan T 8]

Which is why prosecuting the employers who flout the law is the first step. Removing the incentive to come here in the first place will dramatically reduce the incidence of illegal immigration. But the political will needs to be there, and right now both parties have been pandering to the employers and the illegal aliens for partisan political reasons. The American public deserve having their elected representatives think about them for a change.

when have elected officials ever really cared about anything except remaining elected officials. I believe it was party jumper spectre that had a condemning stance on amnesty for illegals on his english website but a welcoming message for undocumented workers on his spanish translated site. To me this just illustrates how every single one of our elected officials in washington regard us in this way. term limits I say term limits

[peejay 327]

I would agree with most of the things you expressed. This situation has built up over time, and won't be easily fixed overnight. It should also be pointed out, that while we are talking about a 'crime' in the case of most illegals jumping the border. During the border jump, they are committing a criminal act. But with regards to being in our country illegally, post border jump, we are also talking about a civil violation, something on the order of speeding or failing to stop at a stop sign. Somewhat more serious than that, but not on the order of violent crime nor a violation of our criminal code, which those who can't see past "They are here illegally" never seem to be able to comprehend.

Deportation, especially in the face of the fact so many just come right back, is not really a sustainable solution even were it technically possible. It really isn't.

If just being illegally present in the USA "post border jump" is just a minor civil infraction, why are any illegal aliens subject to arrest, detainment, and deportation for illegal presence? This is just one of the many lies propogated by the illegal alien cheerleader crowd to minimize the crimes committed by illegal aliens. In addition to merely illegally crossing and being illegally present they also use fraudulent and/or stolen documentation to work illegally without legal authorization in addition to committing perjury by lying on the I-9 form to do so. Not to mention the illegal aliens that work off the books for cash to evade income taxes. This covers the Home Depot crowd hawking illegal work on the street corner and the contractors that violate the law to hire them.

The sad fact is that the average American has been deceived and lied to on so many fronts that many are ignorant of the truth. There is also this lie that the amnesty supporters propogate through omission of the all the facts. The most obvious one being that amnestied illegal aliens must learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine to be able to stay in the USA. During a mass blanket illegal alien amnesty as proposed by Obama they all get to stay and get permanent residency along with work authorization why being processed. Only the ones that pursue US ctizenship will be required to learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine (which comes years down the line after processing for permanent residency). These 12-20 million amnestied illegal aliens are barred while they being are processed (also taking years).

The biggest lie of all is that amnesty is necessary in order to enforce our immigration laws at all. If they won't enforce our laws now and after 7 other illegal alien amnesties why does anyone with half a brain believe they will do it after the 8th amnesty? We do not need to amnesty millions of illegal aliens to reform immigration policy or enforce our laws.

Another lie being pushed is that arresting and deporting these millions of illegal aliens is too expensive and logistically impossible. As if competently processing these millions will be cheap along with extending social entitlements to them afterword will be.

We have repeatedly been promised a competent work verification system since the first illegal alien amnesty in 1986 and the politicians refuse to fund/implement its developement. This from a country that is steeped in modern technology and put men on the moon 41 years ago. Not to mention that big business has no problem reliably conducting and verifying millions of financial transactions as well as the government also already doing so itself. They determine eligibility for millions of Social Security recipients already and dole out benefits to them along with many other transactions in day to day government. Why no employment verification?

The cheapest and most cost effective route to real immigration reform is to immediately implement real mandatory and effective employment verification that was promised decades ago. Corporations and employers have no qualms with shedding American employees when they so desire to do so. Witness the millions of unemployed Americans right now. Why should anyone (much less our politicians) get in an uproar about firing masses of illegal aliens that aren't authorized to legally work, much less, even be legally present in our country? Migration works both ways. No reason to deport when they can just as easily return the way they got here. These people are not the responsibility of the US government...American citizens are. We are not being served by their failure to control illegal immigration and the harm it causes us.

Amnesty is bad public policy and harms our country. It has failed miserably after being used repeatedly. It does not deter illegal immigration, but actually encourages it. Why do it again? Why do it at all? Obama and the Left wing Dems are wrong on this.

That's my 2 cents...flame away.

[peejay 327]

These 12-20 million amnestied illegal aliens are barred while they being are processed (also taking years).

My bad. I meant to state that they are barred from being deported for the many years they will be in processing.

[Dan T 8]

If just being illegally present in the USA "post border jump" is just a minor civil infraction, why are any illegal aliens subject to arrest, detainment, and deportation for illegal presence? This is just one of the many lies propogated by the illegal alien cheerleader crowd to minimize the crimes committed by illegal aliens. In addition to merely illegally crossing and being illegally present they also use fraudulent and/or stolen documentation to work illegally without legal authorization in addition to committing perjury by lying on the I-9 form to do so. Not to mention the illegal aliens that work off the books for cash to evade income taxes. This covers the Home Depot crowd hawking illegal work on the street corner and the contractors that violate the law to hire them.

The sad fact is that the average American has been deceived and lied to on so many fronts that many are ignorant of the truth. There is also this lie that the amnesty supporters propogate through omission of the all the facts. The most obvious one being that amnestied illegal aliens must learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine to be able to stay in the USA. During a mass blanket illegal alien amnesty as proposed by Obama they all get to stay and get permanent residency along with work authorization why being processed. Only the ones that pursue US ctizenship will be required to learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine (which comes years down the line after processing for permanent residency). These 12-20 million amnestied illegal aliens are barred while they being are processed (also taking years).

The biggest lie of all is that amnesty is necessary in order to enforce our immigration laws at all. If they won't enforce our laws now and after 7 other illegal alien amnesties why does anyone with half a brain believe they will do it after the 8th amnesty? We do not need to amnesty millions of illegal aliens to reform immigration policy or enforce our laws.

Another lie being pushed is that arresting and deporting these millions of illegal aliens is too expensive and logistically impossible. As if competently processing these millions will be cheap along with extending social entitlements to them afterword will be.

We have repeatedly been promised a competent work verification system since the first illegal alien amnesty in 1986 and the politicians refuse to fund/implement its developement. This from a country that is steeped in modern technology and put men on the moon 41 years ago. Not to mention that big business has no problem reliably conducting and verifying millions of financial transactions as well as the government also already doing so itself. They determine eligibility for millions of Social Security recipients already and dole out benefits to them along with many other transactions in day to day government. Why no employment verification?

The cheapest and most cost effective route to real immigration reform is to immediately implement real mandatory and effective employment verification that was promised decades ago. Corporations and employers have no qualms with shedding American employees when they so desire to do so. Witness the millions of unemployed Americans right now. Why should anyone (much less our politicians) get in an uproar about firing masses of illegal aliens that aren't authorized to legally work, much less, even be legally present in our country? Migration works both ways. No reason to deport when they can just as easily return the way they got here. These people are not the responsibility of the US government...American citizens are. We are not being served by their failure to control illegal immigration and the harm it causes us.

Amnesty is bad public policy and harms our country. It has failed miserably after being used repeatedly. It does not deter illegal immigration, but actually encourages it. Why do it again? Why do it at all? Obama and the Left wing Dems are wrong on this.

That's my 2 cents...flame away.

quite the contrary, if I were a follower of abraham, which im not, Id say amen and hallaluja preach on my brother. my only contention is that the right has as big of a role in this, and as lacking of balls, after all who was president in 1986.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dan T

[littlecrazyangel 1]

My mother-in-law hates Mexicans(or spanish speaking people) who don't want to learn English. She came to his country and it was very hard for her to learn English, but she learned it and she is speaking it very well, and most of the Mexicans don't want to learn English.Why do we have to press 1 foe English? We are in USA.

Because they are so numerous and don't want to learn the language some businesses are offering services in spanish. At Macy's, Home Depot,Bank of America everything is in Spanish also. At best buy, Social security office and other businesses there is someone who speaks english because there are so many people who don't want to speak engligh.

English is my 3rd language and I'm motivated to learn it better.I still have a lot to learn.

What is going to happen in 40 years when they are going to be the majority?

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Some of you guys really don't get it. How is that possible?

Since we have outlawed slavery, the poorest of the poor immigrants do the slave work for not more than food and pocket change. We only can implement drastic changes to the immigration system once we can replace the illegal immigrants with Americans. The Republicans have been working on this with a master plan for years by dumbing down the people and making education and health care as unaffordable as possible. Ever noticed Americans, even decorated Veterans, holding a sign, asking for a handout where YOU live?

Dumb and hungry people who have nothing will not revolt and will work for food, just to survive. The Obama administration is now spoiling this plan. Until the Republicans are in power again and can finish what they started, America needs the illegal immigrants like the air we breathe.

Don't believe me? Do you really know somebody who will pick cotton or strawberries for 12 hours a day, getting paid $3.50 an hour, of which they deduct $300 at months' end for the bag of straw you are sleeping on in that rundown 8-person shack? My guess is, not yet. Until then, we need those workers.

[Dan T 8]

Some of you guys really don't get it. How is that possible?

Since we have outlawed slavery, the poorest of the poor immigrants do the slave work for not more than food and pocket change. We only can implement drastic changes to the immigration system once we can replace the illegal immigrants with Americans. The Republicans have been working on this with a master plan for years by dumbing down the people and making education and health care as unaffordable as possible. Ever noticed Americans, even decorated Veterans, holding a sign, asking for a handout where YOU live?

Dumb and hungry people who have nothing will not revolt and will work for food, just to survive. The Obama administration is now spoiling this plan. Until the Republicans are in power again and can finish what they started, America needs the illegal immigrants like the air we breathe.

Don't believe me? Do you really know somebody who will pick cotton or strawberries for 12 hours a day, getting paid $3.50 an hour, of which they deduct $300 at months' end for the bag of straw you are sleeping on in that rundown 8-person shack? My guess is, not yet. Until then, we need those workers.

ok so youre in favor of having a permenant supply of 2nd-class citizens? and if you think people need republicans help to be dumbed down you are mistaken, most people are delivered that way from the factory.

[sara..... 371]

I dont know maybe im just angry but we will give Amnesty to people that will pick our strawberries, glean our crops but our government fights us every step of the way to bring a fiance here that is a well educated doctor?????? does anyone else see how upside down that seems????

When we were kids growing up we tried to get jobs in these very fields that the illegals pick to earn money but they were contracted out to people that had ........ crews from Mexico ready to work......why cant they use the younger generation that is too young to start the work force instead of giving out Amnesty to those that did not do anything but find their way here to the USA with out going thru the right immigration process?........i have elder sisters and a brother that state every summer they worked in the fields they knew where a dollar came from until the crews from Mexico would contract the fields to pick garlic or strawberries....my elder brother had his own lawn business by the time he was 14...used to be kids found a way to make money instead of having their hand in their parents pocket it made them grow up to be better adults knowing how to work.......

just my opinion

sara

[TBoneTX 43,061]

most of the Mexicans don't want to learn English.

This is judgmental and overly simplistic. Have you talked to all, most, many, or any of them? Do you KNOW that what you claim is fact? Every person in my wife's Hispanic circle -- Mexican, Central American, or South American -- regardless of immigration status, would LOVE to learn English better. Not ONE of them thinks otherwise. It's not desire to learn, but OPPORTUNITY to learn, that holds them back. And, even if they are taking English classes, they have no chance to PRACTICE, because their husbands/wives are countrymen who are in the same linguistic pickle.

Fully 100% of my wife's amigas (female friends) are palpably JEALOUS of her, because she is married to me (a gringo) and can practice and receive correction on English grammar, spelling, orthography, & pronunciation. Also without exception, native Spanish-speakers whom I'VE run into are sensitive about their perceived lack of English skills, and they beam brightly when I reassure and encourage them.

At night sometimes, my wife will pick up a magazine at random -- anything from "Good Housekeeping" to the Mensa magazine to a medical journal -- and want to read a random page or paragraph to me. She does impressively well already, given her current stage of progress, and she drinks in the little rules & exceptions regarding pronunciation. She regularly states how fortunate she considers herself to have this opportunity, which her amigas do not. She confirmed my conjecture that native Spanish-speakers who do NOT have the chance to learn/practice end up speaking Spanish to one another precisely so they can COMMUNICATE in daily life.

they are so numerous and don't want to learn the language

(Numerous compared with what?) And, see above.

At best buy, Social security office and other businesses there is someone who speaks english because there are so many people who don't want to speak engligh.

Say what, please?

English is my 3rd language and I'm motivated to learn it better.I still have a lot to learn.

And yet you're so sure that those whom you criticize are so different from you, si man?

[Dan T 8]

This is judgmental and overly simplistic. Have you talked to all, most, many, or any of them? Do you KNOW that what you claim is fact? Every person in my wife's Hispanic circle -- Mexican, Central American, or South American -- regardless of immigration status, would LOVE to learn English better. Not ONE of them thinks otherwise. It's not desire to learn, but OPPORTUNITY to learn, that holds them back. And, even if they are taking English classes, they have no chance to PRACTICE, because their husbands/wives are countrymen who are in the same linguistic pickle.

Fully 100% of my wife's amigas (female friends) are palpably JEALOUS of her, because she is married to me (a gringo) and can practice and receive correction on English grammar, spelling, orthography, & pronunciation. Also without exception, native Spanish-speakers whom I'VE run into are sensitive about their perceived lack of English skills, and they beam brightly when I reassure and encourage them.

At night sometimes, my wife will pick up a magazine at random -- anything from "Good Housekeeping" to the Mensa magazine to a medical journal -- and want to read a random page or paragraph to me. She does impressively well already, given her current stage of progress, and she drinks in the little rules & exceptions regarding pronunciation. She regularly states how fortunate she considers herself to have this opportunity, which her amigas do not. She confirmed my conjecture that native Spanish-speakers who do NOT have the chance to learn/practice end up speaking Spanish to one another precisely so they can COMMUNICATE in daily life.(Numerous compared with what?) And, see above.Say what, please?And yet you're so sure that those whom you criticize are so different from you, si man?

never, and i do literally mean never as in not once, met a chinese, a german or a nigerian in america that didnt speak english, I have only to go to the convenience store around the corner to find a clerk behind the counter, thats lived here for 5 years, with not enough english for me to order a sandwhich.