May 24, 2022 -- Deadly shooting at Texas elementary school

[Kai G. Llewellyn 829]

12 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

People keep crying about the lack of mental health access.......but  forcing someone to accept current mental health therapy is not that easy.   How many of these shooters wanted help, yet were denied?  

We're not even getting to that point with the current state of mental health access. With the difficulty of access right now, rather than resolving issues before they become a major problem, we seem to have the approach of letting people get to crisis points before really offering them any substantive support. The Doctor's office can provide medication, but it's a bandaid, it doesn't really resolve the problems. They just give you a break from the problems, kinda like Tylenol for your headaches. Actual proper therapy which involves counselling, psychiatrists, cognitive behavioural therapy are the actual solutions here. And it's way too damn hard to access whether you're in the US or elsewhere. Especially if you're from a poor background, the cost alone is a major barrier. I'm hardly talking about dragging people into mental asylums here, moreso that there needs to be easy, free and universal access to mental healthcare for both adults and children, and it's a role that the schools should have as well.

 

If providing mental healthcare is out, gun control is out, what do you suggest we do? Funding the everloving christ out of police departments and having capital punishment clearly doesn't act as a deterrent or prevention of these massacres. Any gun owner should be hugely supportive of improved mental healthcare, it helps ensure the ongoing protection of the 2A while also reducing the negative impacts on society. Win-win if you ask me.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Kai G. Llewellyn

[Crazy Cat 39,617]

46 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

Also true and why I don't think reducing the issue to mental health care is particularly helpful. People have to want help in most cases to get help, and if the issues begin before the age of 18, the parents/legal guardians are involved. If someone is already from a rough familial background, what is the likelihood that family is going to drive their child to appointments, pay for therapy, pick up prescriptions, or whatever else is needed?

Like I have said, I have worked with adolescents as well as adults in the area of Psych.  Although I enjoyed, both, the big difference between the two was clear- None of the adolescents wanted to be in-patients.....but almost all of the adults realized they needed help.  

Almost all of these school shooters are adolescents or very young adults......getting them to accept and comply with therapy would be extremely difficult.  Group therapy and meds are ineffective on those unwilling to accept them.  But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Crazy Cat

[Crazy Cat 39,617]

5 minutes ago, Kai G. Llewellyn said:

With the difficulty of access right now,

How so?  Ever heard of state hospitals?  Help is available...for those who want it..... Forcing "help" is another thing altogether. 

[Kai G. Llewellyn 829]

Just now, Crazy Cat said:

How so?  Ever heard of state hospitals?  Help is available...for those who want it..... Forcing "help" is another thing altogether. 

Can't say I've heard of them, but a quick lookup suggests that they only get involved if you're found not-guilty of serious violent crimes on the basis of insanity. Which kinda sounds like chucking people in the 'loony bin' to me.

 

All I know is that I have to pay $150 out of pocket per hour of counselling. I'm fortunate I can afford that, but a dysfunctional family from a poor background? Not a chance. Any 'free' mental healthcare has had exceedingly long wait times, say in Canada and the UK, it's a six month wait to get free counselling...and a lot can happen in that time. Someone could easily fall into crisis in that time. The ability for early intervention, the ability to easily book an appointment to get help, it's important. Pretty sure my insurance is extremely limited in the mental health coverage beyond doctor's visits and medication. You *might* get a psych appointment partially covered, but that seems about it.

[beloved_dingo 1,939]

8 minutes ago, Kai G. Llewellyn said:

We're not even getting to that point with the current state of mental health access. With the difficulty of access right now, rather than resolving issues before they become a major problem, we seem to have the approach of letting people get to crisis points before really offering them any substantive support. The Doctor's office can provide medication, but it's a bandaid, it doesn't really resolve the problems. They just give you a break from the problems, kinda like Tylenol for your headaches. Actual proper therapy which involves counselling, psychiatrists, cognitive behavioural therapy are the actual solutions here. And it's way too damn hard to access whether you're in the US or elsewhere. Especially if you're from a poor background, the cost alone is a major barrier. I'm hardly talking about dragging people into mental asylums here, moreso that there needs to be easy, free and universal access to mental healthcare for both adults and children, and it's a role that the schools should have as well.

 

If providing mental healthcare is out, gun control is out, what do you suggest we do? Funding the everloving christ out of police departments and having capital punishment clearly doesn't act as a deterrent or prevention of these massacres. Any gun owner should be hugely supportive of improved mental healthcare, it helps ensure the ongoing protection of the 2A while also reducing the negative impacts on society. Win-win if you ask me.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but how do you help teenagers and young adults that do not want help? If there are red flags but the person isn't deemed to be a threat to themselves or others "yet", how do we use mental health care to prevent it from getting to that point? Especially if there is not a supportive home environment?

[Crazy Cat 39,617]

1 minute ago, beloved_dingo said:

but how do you help teenagers and young adults that do not want help?

That is the $64,000 question......answer is:  You can't......even through forced in-patient admission or forced out-patient therapy. 

[Kai G. Llewellyn 829]

5 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but how do you help teenagers and young adults that do not want help? If there are red flags but the person isn't deemed to be a threat to themselves or others "yet", how do we use mental health care to prevent it from getting to that point? Especially if there is not a supportive home environment?

To be honest, teenagers do not have freedom of independence when it comes to healthcare choices - when I was a kid, I'd be taken to psychiatrists whether I'd want to or not. Granted, the onus is on parents to make that happen, but it'd help to get more engagement with parents regarding the importance of mental health care, watching out for the signs and so forth.

 

I grant you, this will not solve all the problems here, but it would help. Make the healthcare accessible, then address barriers to why people aren't using it. A lot of it, at least in my own shoes, is that it's intimidating, especially if you're hauled off to a hospital, there's a lot of preconceived stigma regarding getting help. Hell, if this was able to stop at least one massacre, I'd say that'd be a success.

 

Unfortunately, if society concludes that a lot of people just cannot be helped, then we are pretty much screwed on this.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Kai G. Llewellyn

[beloved_dingo 1,939]

1 minute ago, Crazy Cat said:

That is the $64,000 question......answer is:  You can't......even through forced in-patient admission or forced out-patient therapy. 

Do you think better mental health support in schools would make a difference?

[Dashinka 23,362]

1 hour ago, LIBrty4all said:

Highly recommend Signal over both WhatsApp and Messenger (both owned by FB, and neither care about your privacy).  Signal isn't as wide-spread as WhatsApp, but a better app overall, and is more secure.

We use Viber as well.  It is in the top 10, but I agree Signal is better (thanks for the recommendation), trying to get my wife to move more to Signal.

 

https://getstream.io/blog/most-secure-messaging-apps/

[Crazy Cat 39,617]

22 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

Do you think better mental health support in schools would make a difference?

Maybe... for those want help. Sometimes, some will accept help later.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Crazy Cat

[Kai G. Llewellyn 829]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

Maybe... for those want help.  

What would you reckon would be the percentages of youth that do want help? It can't be insignificant, and if those people are helped, we may prevent a future tragedy like this.

 

I can't say I'm a fan of 'these people don't want to be helped' so we won't bother trying and will condemn them to their fate. You have to keep trying.

 

At the end of the day, I understand the concerns of people on both sides of this debate. But what I can't accept is we shrug our shoulders and say 'oh well, that's the price we have to pay for the current policies we have'. If we as a society could agree on certain policies that would help address this, I think we'd go a long way to having better outcomes. And that goes on many things in the US, screw being tribalistic to the Dems or GOP. Let's try and agree an issue exists, and then discuss ways to solving it...build a consensus. We can't just put our fingers in our ears and ignore it.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Kai G. Llewellyn

[Dashinka 23,362]

42 minutes ago, Mike E said:

A society has three variables:

 

guns, tyranny, and crime 

 

I think the best combination is no gun rights, no tyranny, and no crime. 
 

But if there is tyranny or crime, then I want gun rights. 
 

 

And yet we are moving toward all 3.

[beloved_dingo 1,939]

Just now, Crazy Cat said:

Maybe... for those want help.  

I think it could have an impact...many people have stories about how they were headed down the wrong path until someone realized they were suffering/reached out to try and connect. Sometimes that makes all the difference. But it certainly isn't a solution, just a small thing that could mitigate these outcomes.

 

Also another thought/question...websites like 4chan continually come up in these situations, and contribute to these young men being radicalized. Is there any way to deal with that problem? I don't think this issue has a single thing to do with video games and a lot more to do with these darker corners of the internet + the desire for notoriety on social media.

[B_J 2,752]

6 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

Do you think better mental health support in schools would make a difference?

Yes, definitely yes.

 

In my opinion, I don't think these kids just wake up one morning and they're this far gone.  I also don't think they are born this way.  I think it is a process that can possibly be intercepted and changed.

 

Also, talking to a kid in school, giving him counseling and support, is different than outside of school.  It won't be the cure all for every kid but I think it could help a lot.

[Dashinka 23,362]

13 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but how do you help teenagers and young adults that do not want help? If there are red flags but the person isn't deemed to be a threat to themselves or others "yet", how do we use mental health care to prevent it from getting to that point? Especially if there is not a supportive home environment?

Personally, I would be fine with red flag laws (not sure it would have mattered in this case though), but there has to be a suitable punishment for someone that might take advantage of such red flag laws as an act of revenge.