2nd Nitpicky N400 Interview

[insipidtoast 3]

This was my wife’s second naturalization interview today. The first interview last year went okay, and the interviewer said she was going to recommend my wife for approval. 4 weeks later we got a denial letter. The reason: We didn’t wait 3 months to submit the N400 application following our move to SD. So we went through the whole process in vain. Couldn’t they have denied us for this technicality right from the start instead of making us jump through all the hoops over the course of the next few months? 

 

We were residents of SD then.

 

Fast forward 14 months later to today’s interview based on my wife’s second N-400. Wait let me back up a little first: 

 

In July 2018 (not long after receiving the denial letter) we moved to TN to go to work for a different company that refused to hire me with a SD address. By the way, I’m a truck driver...long haul. Hopefully you understand what that means more then these Uscis idiots who think the products magically appear on their shelves. In case you’re as clueless as a uscis interviewer, most long haul trucking companies REQUIRE a driver to be away from home for at least two weeks at a time, and many companies (including mine) prefer that drivers stay out much longer.

My wife is my authorized passenger, and we have been living like this for over 2 years now “over the road” or “OTR” in trucker lingo. This lifestyle is reality for millions of Americans.

 

Last year my sister let us use her address in TN to establish residency. We came up with a written agreement with her to use a room in her house when we’re in town. We submitted a copy of this agreement with my wife’s most recent N400. We fulfilled all the requirements to establish residency in TN, and get a drivers license. Actually mine was a Class A Commercial Driver License with a TSA approved hazardous materials endorsement, so I had to jump through more hoops to prove my TN residency than the average person. Actually it wasn’t even going to work except for the fact that my sister was a resident, and there’s a sibling clause. That actually made the difference. It’s a lot easier to obtain a regular, non-commercial license.

 

Well apparently Uscis interviewers have a problem with a trucker and his wife being away from home “too much.” I suppose I could leave my wife at home to fend for herself for weeks at a time while I’m out on the road, but we didn’t get married to live separately. And you know Uscis would look at such a situation and say, “well you hardly even live together, so this doesn’t look like a legitimate relationship.”

 

So, today my wife aced her civics and English test (for a second time). *So proud of her!*

 

When the interviewer was finalizing the session, my wife was shocked that the interviewer marked the box that said “a decision cannot be made yet about your application.”

 

My wife rightfully questioned this, and the interviewer seemed to mistrust the fact that my wife waited more than 3 months from moving to TN, establishing residency, and getting a drivers license before submitting her most recent N400. My wife offered to show her Driver License to prove that the issue date was more than 3 months prior to the N400 application date. The interviewer responded, “that’s not necessary.” Also, the interviewer expressed concern in the fact that we’re “not home enough.” So she told my wife she was going to “look into the TN laws regarding residency.” My wife explained the reality of the long haul trucking lifestyle, but this interviewer just said she needed more time to review everything.

 

The interviewer was lucky I was not allowed to be part of the interview. If I had been involved there would have been a scene.

 

They sit on the application for 8 months, and don’t even do their homework to verify if the applicant is a legitimate resident BEFORE the interview. Then they practically accuse you of residency fraud, by doubting that TN knows how to properly assess and grant residency. You can’t get a drivers license in TN without first becoming a resident of the state. And if there were a law on the books that says you need to spend X amount of days at home every month or else one’s residency will be revoked then no truck drivers would have their domicile in TN. Also, that would fall under the jurisdiction of the state of TN, and would be the responsibility of TN and NOT the federal government.

 

So can they deny citizenship based on the fact that they don’t really like your licit lifestyle and career choice? 

 

In any case, these are concerns of theirs they could’ve investigated BEFORE the interview.

 

I didn’t hear what was said, just what my wife told me afterwards. My interpretation of what they told my wife is essentially, “Well, applicant, you did everything right this time, but just give us another three weeks to see if we can dig up some other excuse not to give you your citizenship that you rightfully earned.”

 

[geowrian 22,335]

They don’t verify residency before the interview as it’s a judgement call combined with the laws of the individual states. Hopefully they can verify the living situation this time and approve the application.

 

Making a scene would not have ended well for anybody.

 

They cannot deny based on not liking one’s lifestyle, but they do have to verify compliance with the INA and AFM/policy manual. It’s not just a matter of understanding the situation - I’m sure they see many others with similar situations - but they are bound by laws and policies and have to confirm compliance with them.

[animkofi 7]

10 hours ago, insipidtoast said:

This was my wife’s second naturalization interview today. The first interview last year went okay, and the interviewer said she was going to recommend my wife for approval. 4 weeks later we got a denial letter. The reason: We didn’t wait 3 months to submit the N400 application following our move to SD. So we went through the whole process in vain. Couldn’t they have denied us for this technicality right from the start instead of making us jump through all the hoops over the course of the next few months? 

 

We were residents of SD then.

 

Fast forward 14 months later to today’s interview based on my wife’s second N-400. Wait let me back up a little first: 

 

In July 2018 (not long after receiving the denial letter) we moved to TN to go to work for a different company that refused to hire me with a SD address. By the way, I’m a truck driver...long haul. Hopefully you understand what that means more then these Uscis idiots who think the products magically appear on their shelves. In case you’re as clueless as a uscis interviewer, most long haul trucking companies REQUIRE a driver to be away from home for at least two weeks at a time, and many companies (including mine) prefer that drivers stay out much longer.

My wife is my authorized passenger, and we have been living like this for over 2 years now “over the road” or “OTR” in trucker lingo. This lifestyle is reality for millions of Americans.

 

Last year my sister let us use her address in TN to establish residency. We came up with a written agreement with her to use a room in her house when we’re in town. We submitted a copy of this agreement with my wife’s most recent N400. We fulfilled all the requirements to establish residency in TN, and get a drivers license. Actually mine was a Class A Commercial Driver License with a TSA approved hazardous materials endorsement, so I had to jump through more hoops to prove my TN residency than the average person. Actually it wasn’t even going to work except for the fact that my sister was a resident, and there’s a sibling clause. That actually made the difference. It’s a lot easier to obtain a regular, non-commercial license.

 

Well apparently Uscis interviewers have a problem with a trucker and his wife being away from home “too much.” I suppose I could leave my wife at home to fend for herself for weeks at a time while I’m out on the road, but we didn’t get married to live separately. And you know Uscis would look at such a situation and say, “well you hardly even live together, so this doesn’t look like a legitimate relationship.”

 

So, today my wife aced her civics and English test (for a second time). *So proud of her!*

 

When the interviewer was finalizing the session, my wife was shocked that the interviewer marked the box that said “a decision cannot be made yet about your application.”

 

My wife rightfully questioned this, and the interviewer seemed to mistrust the fact that my wife waited more than 3 months from moving to TN, establishing residency, and getting a drivers license before submitting her most recent N400. My wife offered to show her Driver License to prove that the issue date was more than 3 months prior to the N400 application date. The interviewer responded, “that’s not necessary.” Also, the interviewer expressed concern in the fact that we’re “not home enough.” So she told my wife she was going to “look into the TN laws regarding residency.” My wife explained the reality of the long haul trucking lifestyle, but this interviewer just said she needed more time to review everything.

 

The interviewer was lucky I was not allowed to be part of the interview. If I had been involved there would have been a scene.

 

They sit on the application for 8 months, and don’t even do their homework to verify if the applicant is a legitimate resident BEFORE the interview. Then they practically accuse you of residency fraud, by doubting that TN knows how to properly assess and grant residency. You can’t get a drivers license in TN without first becoming a resident of the state. And if there were a law on the books that says you need to spend X amount of days at home every month or else one’s residency will be revoked then no truck drivers would have their domicile in TN. Also, that would fall under the jurisdiction of the state of TN, and would be the responsibility of TN and NOT the federal government.

 

So can they deny citizenship based on the fact that they don’t really like your licit lifestyle and career choice? 

 

In any case, these are concerns of theirs they could’ve investigated BEFORE the interview.

 

I didn’t hear what was said, just what my wife told me afterwards. My interpretation of what they told my wife is essentially, “Well, applicant, you did everything right this time, but just give us another three weeks to see if we can dig up some other excuse not to give you your citizenship that you rightfully earned.”

 

I suggest you inform your congressman or woman. All the best!!

[insipidtoast 3]

10 hours ago, geowrian said:

They don’t verify residency before the interview as it’s a judgement call combined with the laws of the individual states. Hopefully they can verify the living situation this time and approve the application.

 

Making a scene would not have ended well for anybody.

 

They cannot deny based on not liking one’s lifestyle, but they do have to verify compliance with the INA and AFM/policy manual. It’s not just a matter of understanding the situation - I’m sure they see many others with similar situations - but they are bound by laws and policies and have to confirm compliance with them.

Well last time they mentioned this career situation on the denial letter, but they didn’t say that was the cause. The only legitimate cause for denial was the not waiting 3 months rule. So, unless they’ve changed the rules in the past year, then there’s nothing to worry about. Unless they can just deny you or do NOID, because they’re being unhelpful.

 

Sitting on the application for 8 months is ample time for them to do their homework and figure out what they need to know.

 

It sounds like they’re clutching at straws to find excuses.

 

What does INA/AFM stand for?

[geowrian 22,335]

13 minutes ago, insipidtoast said:

Well last time they mentioned this career situation on the denial letter, but they didn’t say that was the cause. The only legitimate cause for denial was the not waiting 3 months rule. So, unless they’ve changed the rules in the past year, then there’s nothing to worry about. Unless they can just deny you or do NOID, because they’re being unhelpful.

 

Sitting on the application for 8 months is ample time for them to do their homework and figure out what they need to know.

 

It sounds like they’re clutching at straws to find excuses.

 

What does INA/AFM stand for?

That's a good sign. 👍

 

They weren't working on your application for 8 months. It was just waiting for your turn to come up for review.

 

INA = Immigration and Nationality Act ("immigration law")

AFM = Adjudicator's Field Manual (USCIS policies, which are the processes they follow and understanding of the law). The USICS Policy Manual is slowly replacing the AFM.

[insipidtoast 3]

Honestly, this whole experience with Uscis makes me embarrassed to be a US citizen. All they care about are their stupid fees, taxes and keeping their useless, paper-pushing jobs.

 

They’re too impersonal to even talk to you, and yet you pay their salary. I’m not sure my wife even cares about naturalizing anymore, and I’m not sure why anyone else would want to be a citizen of this country. Why would you want to be a citizen of a country that treats you like a criminal? Ever been to one of our airports? 

 

All Uscis cares about is getting money from you. It’s all about the fees and taxes, and they make everyone study all these BS civics questions about how free this country is, and then make you take your shoes off, earrings, belts, and give you a nice criminal treatment; and then someone with a government job has the audacity to tell you what kind of career you should have as a prerequisite to being a citizen.

“Land of the free” - Right!

 

What a joke this country has become. I can honestly say I’m ashamed to be american.

 

oh, by the way, enjoy the global tax burden from being associated with this repressive regime!

[insipidtoast 3]

7 minutes ago, geowrian said:

That's a good sign. 👍

 

They weren't working on your application for 8 months. It was just waiting for your turn to come up for review.

 

INA = Immigration and Nationality Act ("immigration law")

AFM = Adjudicator's Field Manual (USCIS policies, which are the processes they follow and understanding of the law). The USICS Policy Manual is slowly replacing the AFM.

So in other words, the interviewer was not trained properly for their job, so they’re stalling for more time to research what they should already know. Great use of taxpayer $$$

[little immigrant 800]

Relax. It's normal not to be approved on the spot. It has to be reviewed by a supervisor and it can take a little bit of time. I'm sure she'll get approved this time. 

[geowrian 22,335]

26 minutes ago, insipidtoast said:

So in other words, the interviewer was not trained properly for their job, so they’re stalling for more time to research what they should already know. Great use of taxpayer $$$

I'm not sure how that means they aren't properly trained (not saying that IO was or wasn't...). I'd be surprised if every IO knows the residency rules for every state off the top of their head.

[insipidtoast 3]

2 hours ago, little immigrant said:

Relax. It's normal not to be approved on the spot. It has to be reviewed by a supervisor and it can take a little bit of time. I'm sure she'll get approved this time. 

Thanks for the encouragement. My wife sounded rather bewildered by what the IO told her.

[insipidtoast 3]

2 hours ago, geowrian said:

I'm not sure how that means they aren't properly trained (not saying that IO was or wasn't...). I'd be surprised if every IO knows the residency rules for every state off the top of their head.

It might come in handy for them to know a little about the state they live, work, and judge cases in.

[Going through 5,668]

16 hours ago, insipidtoast said:

4 weeks later we got a denial letter. The reason: We didn’t wait 3 months to submit the N400 application following our move to SD. So we went through the whole process in vain. Couldn’t they have denied us for this technicality right from the start instead of making us jump through all the hoops over the course of the next few months? 

In fairness, I understand your frustration, but you can't really blame USCIS for that.  It's written clearly on the 1st page of the instructions under the General Eligibility Requirements:

 

3. You have lived within the state or USCIS district where you claim residence for at least 3 months prior to filing;

 

While I get it would have been easier if she'd gotten a denial letter right off the bat based on her ineligibility (at that time), it was up to you and your wife to understand that she didn't meet one of the basic requirements at the time of filing.

 

16 hours ago, insipidtoast said:

When the interviewer was finalizing the session, my wife was shocked that the interviewer marked the box that said “a decision cannot be made yet about your application.”

Rest assured, this is normal.  The IO can recommend someone for approval, but you'll always receive an official decision at a later date.  Like you said, the IO relayed that she needed some time to review everything first.  It's also possible the case has to go under supervisor review first (which is also common, doesn't mean your wife's done anything wrong or that they are looking for a reason to deny).

 

I'm sure things will work out well in the end---best of luck to your wife!

 

[jeanieCZ 228]

I can totally relate to your frustration. Fingers crossed, hopefully they will approve your wife. Good luck!

[insipidtoast 3]

3 hours ago, Going through said:

In fairness, I understand your frustration, but you can't really blame USCIS for that.  It's written clearly on the 1st page of the instructions under the General Eligibility Requirements:

 

3. You have lived within the state or USCIS district where you claim residence for at least 3 months prior to filing;

 

While I get it would have been easier if she'd gotten a denial letter right off the bat based on her ineligibility (at that time), it was up to you and your wife to understand that she didn't meet one of the basic requirements at the time of filing.

 

Rest assured, this is normal.  The IO can recommend someone for approval, but you'll always receive an official decision at a later date.  Like you said, the IO relayed that she needed some time to review everything first.  It's also possible the case has to go under supervisor review first (which is also common, doesn't mean your wife's done anything wrong or that they are looking for a reason to deny).

 

I'm sure things will work out well in the end---best of luck to your wife!

 

You’re right. It was our mistake the first time around. This time we made sure, but the interviewer still told my wife that she needs to review if she was a resident for three months this time. 

 

Oh well I hope you’re right and this is just a formality.

 

Edit: How do you know all this about “supervisor review”? Do you work for uscis or something? The average applicant isn’t privy to such procedural info.

Edited July 26, 2019 by insipidtoast

[Going through 5,668]

37 minutes ago, insipidtoast said:

Edit: How do you know all this about “supervisor review”?

Me, personally, I was told at the end of my interview that a supervisor had to review my case and approve it.  Luckily, the IO was able to do that right away (and left me sitting in her office) partially due to my "gentle pushing".  Other VJ members have reported being told at their interviews as well that their supervisor had to review it first.

 

There is also this part in the Policy Manual:

 

A. Approval of Naturalization Application

If an officer approves a naturalization application, the application goes through the appropriate internal procedures before the USCIS office schedules the applicant to appear at a ceremony for the administration of the Oath of Allegiance. ^[2] The internal procedures include a “re-verification” procedure where all approved applications are reviewed for quality. The officer who conducts the re-verification is not the same officer who conducts the interview. While the officer conducting the re-verification process does not adjudicate the application once again, the officer may raise any substantive eligibility issues.

 

38 minutes ago, insipidtoast said:

The average applicant isn’t privy to such procedural info.

Actually---a great read is the USCIS Policy Manual that adjudicators rely on when determining to deny/approve a case.

A good place to start is this chapter for N400 applications https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-b-chapter-3