Hillary Clinton: Santa Fe School Shooting Should Inspire ‘Soul Searching,’ Gun Control

[bcking 3,157]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

 

I've seen a few articles using similar (or probably the same data). In the interest of being objective, my problem with this is it ignores other forms of violent crime. To me it makes total logical sense that countries where you can't easily buy guns will end up having a lower incidence of school shootings. That is just logic. When we have talked about mass shootings in general, typically the comparison with the UK comes up and then the discussion goes towards knife and acid crime (among other things). While I'd argue the comparison doesn't negative our need for better gun control, I still think it's fair to look at what other types of crimes occur at school. To be clear - I don't want this topic to veer off into mass shootings in general, I think focusing on school violence as it's own unique "sub-group" of mass violent attacks is important.

 

I tried doing a search for the incidence of "violent crime" in schools (kids bringing knives to school and attacking people, acid attacks happening at a school, other forms of violent outbursts at school). I haven't been very successful with finding any information on the topic for the UK, Canada, and Australia. I wonder if anyone else has any luck? If we want to focus specifically on school safety, I think it's highly relevant. It's my impression that the majority of the knife/acid attacks occurring in London are happening on the street, not at schools. But I can't find any data on schools specifically.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

9 hours ago, TBoneTX said:

Anyone with the knowledge and the right tools can make their own guns.

It doesn’t even take knowledge or special tools.  I know a guy who walked into a pawn shop, bought an 80% completed pistol (which can be purchased with no BG check because it is not a gun) for about $50, took it home and took a Dremel to it, and went back to the same store about 2 hours later and purchased a slide and magazine.  Had a working composite gun in about 2 hours for less than $200, and did not have to register it nor have a BG check.  Could have just gotten out of prison the day prior. 

 

Now THAT is one way criminals can easily get a gun.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 hour ago, Póg mo said:

Or perhaps the laws that currently are on the books have too many loop holes or just are not very clear as their intentions. Yes I understand that conservatives have decided that doing nothing is much easier than doing anything, but how many children, ordinary people going about their daily business have to be murdered in cold blood before America decides enough is enough. Clearly what we have at the moment is not working. So why no just do a repeal of existing laws and enactment of newer more workable laws? What have we got to loose? 

Yeah.  It’s conservatives to blame.  Is this the point you have reached after realizing blaming the NRA and the guns themselves was not working?  

 

Before you try to blame any one group, realize who was in charge during different administrations, and review the gun crimes and law changes that happened during that time frame.  It won’t take you very long to go back 20 years and review the facts.

[bcking 3,157]

10 minutes ago, Boiler said:

We have had at least 40 years getting here, not likely to be much quicker  resolving the issue, but first would need will and I see the MDL fighting this every step of the way.

That's fine but still I'm not seeing any specific suggestions. How do you suggest we create better "children and parent" control? Again it just seems like an impossible "pipe dream" that you can just throw out into the conversation without any real method of making it happen.

 

As I said, I am totally an advocate for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I'd love to have ID's have a marker on them when you are a parent, and then you are banned from buying cigarettes. But that is unlikely to ever happen. "Freedom" and all that junk.

 

9 minutes ago, IDWAF said:

The only thing that a longer wait period MIGHT do is allow someone with suicidal/homicidal thoughts to “cool down” (one of the reasons behind a wait period, that we have no way of knowing if it is working or not).  If a thug has a straw buyer, then a longer waiting period just means they will get their guns later, it doesn’t mean that they WON’T get them, unfortunately.  

 

I'd love to see:

 

1. Required education for the purchase of a firearm (required training of use, a certificate before you can purchase the weapon)

2. Required safe storage (purchase receipt for a safe/locker depending on what you are purchasing)

3. Mental health evaluation prior to purchase of a weapon - Perhaps a required "screening form" that you bring to your doctor for them to conduct/fill out, and if there are any "red flags" you need a more thorough evaluation by a more experienced professional

4. "Recertification" required with some specified frequency (yearly, every other year, whatever people could agree on) - Requires proof of continued safe practices, safe storage, review of background check, and a new mental health evaluation to show that nothing has changed

 

Safe, responsible gun owners would be able to get through all 4 with no problem (hopefully they are already choosing to do 1 and 2, otherwise I would argue whether they deserve the "safe responsible" title). People who may be at higher risk would have a more difficult time.

Edited May 22, 2018 by bcking

[Boiler 43,708]

9 minutes ago, bcking said:

That's fine but still I'm not saying any specific suggestions. How do you suggest we create better "children and parent" control? Again it just seems like an impossible "pipe dream" that you can just throw out into the conversation without any real method of making it happen.

 

As I said, I am totally an advocate for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I'd love to have ID's have a marker on them when you are a parent, and then you are banned from buying cigarettes. But that is unlikely to ever happen. "Freedom" and all that junk.

 

I'd love to see:

 

1. Required education for the purchase of a firearm (required training of use, a certificate before you can purchase the weapon)

2. Required safe storage (purchase receipt for a safe/locker depending on what you are purchasing)

3. Mental health evaluation prior to purchase of a weapon

4. "Recertification" required with some specified frequency (yearly, every other year, whatever people could agree on) - Requires proof of continued safe practices, safe storage, review of background check, and a new mental health evaluation to show that nothing has changed

So basically the same a getting a driving licence.

[bcking 3,157]

Just now, Boiler said:

So basically the same a getting a driving licence.

Similar, though I think in this country we should have stricter annual inspections of our cars so that unsafe vehicles aren't on the roadway. The number of blown tires in Texas is insane. Cars should be inspected annually and required to be maintained to a certain standard. That would be similar to the requirement for "safe storage" of the firearm.

 

I also don't think a driver's license requires a mental health evaluation. I think that would be the hardest part, but potentially the most important part. I think the problem is if you make it too restrictive you will have people afraid to "come forward" about their mental health for fear of stigma and limitations on their freedoms. You also have the risk of people manipulating/gaming the system, like with the "medicinal" aspect of marijuana and how you can pay a "doctor" to sign you off for it (or how you can pay a "doctor" to give you some silly certificate for an emotional support animal). 

 

I am 100% for people who are safe, responsible gun owners to continue to own and use their firearms. As a "safe, responsible" driver I would gladly jump through more hoops to ensure that everyone else on the road are similarly responsible. I know I would have no problem satisfying the requirements. I would hope responsible gun owners would do the same with gun ownership.

 

 

[Eric-Pris 1,602]

27 minutes ago, bcking said:

How do you suggest we create "children and parent control". I agree with you, but somehow I think that is going to be difficult so it seems like an impossible request. We can't restrict parents to "high quality parents". Especially if we also don't want to support birth control and abortion.

 

Do you have any examples of laws that criminals don't ignore? Criminals tend to ignore all laws, so that isn't a very useful argument. Let's just have no laws and anarchy then. Also - Most countries with tighter gun laws do indeed see fewer criminals using guns (not zero, but far less than we have) so in practice that also doesn't seem to be true.

Obviously, we need societal-wide changes.  Agreed that it won't change anytime soon.  The violence has been romanticized for so long and the internet helped turn these kids into little anti-social monsters.

 

I think those stats that say countries with tougher gun laws have fewer guns are misleading.  Those countries also have tougher courts, not a revolving door system like we have.  There are labor prisons, are no TV's in prisons, they don't have conjugal visits, etc  In other words, our prisons are too easy.  They eat, sleep, work out, play basketball, etc.  Some have a better life than they did on the outside.  In other countries, prisoners drop dead from being worked too hard.  Maybe no literally.

 

[bcking 3,157]

1 minute ago, Eric-Pris said:

Obviously, we need societal-wide changes.  Agreed that it won't change anytime soon.  The violence has been romanticized for so long and the internet helped turn these kids into little anti-social monsters.

 

I think those stats that say countries with tougher gun laws have fewer guns are misleading.  Those countries also have tougher courts, not a revolving door system like we have.  There are labor prisons, are no TV's in prisons, they don't have conjugal visits, etc  In other words, our prisons are too easy.  They eat, sleep, work out, play basketball, etc.  Some have a better life than they did on the outside.  In other countries, prisoners drop dead from being worked too hard.  Maybe no literally.

 

Interesting observation, I haven't thought about the prison system in different countries as a deterrent.

 

As I had pointed out, i was more interested in looking at the incidence of all types of "violence" in schools (whether it is firearm related, knife related, acid or something else). If other countries have similarly disturbed teens, how are they acting out if they don't have easy access to firearms? I haven't found any data or information on it though. If they don't have the same number of disturbed teens - Why is that? They have access to the same media we do. Heck even the "media effect" mentioned (attacks lead to more attacks) would impact other countries as well since they hear about all the cases in our country. My wife's parents called her up after seeing in the news about Sante Fe, so it's not like these stories don't make it "across the pond".

[Boiler 43,708]

32 minutes ago, bcking said:

Similar, though I think in this country we should have stricter annual inspections of our cars so that unsafe vehicles aren't on the roadway. The number of blown tires in Texas is insane. Cars should be inspected annually and required to be maintained to a certain standard. That would be similar to the requirement for "safe storage" of the firearm.

 

I also don't think a driver's license requires a mental health evaluation. I think that would be the hardest part, but potentially the most important part. I think the problem is if you make it too restrictive you will have people afraid to "come forward" about their mental health for fear of stigma and limitations on their freedoms. You also have the risk of people manipulating/gaming the system, like with the "medicinal" aspect of marijuana and how you can pay a "doctor" to sign you off for it (or how you can pay a "doctor" to give you some silly certificate for an emotional support animal). 

 

I am 100% for people who are safe, responsible gun owners to continue to own and use their firearms. As a "safe, responsible" driver I would gladly jump through more hoops to ensure that everyone else on the road are similarly responsible. I know I would have no problem satisfying the requirements. I would hope responsible gun owners would do the same with gun ownership.

 

 

So why suggest it.

[Póg mo 1,749]

38 minutes ago, Eric-Pris said:

Obviously, we need societal-wide changes.  Agreed that it won't change anytime soon.  The violence has been romanticized for so long and the internet helped turn these kids into little anti-social monsters.

 

I think those stats that say countries with tougher gun laws have fewer guns are misleading.  Those countries also have tougher courts, not a revolving door system like we have.  There are labor prisons, are no TV's in prisons, they don't have conjugal visits, etc  In other words, our prisons are too easy.  They eat, sleep, work out, play basketball, etc.  Some have a better life than they did on the outside.  In other countries, prisoners drop dead from being worked too hard.  Maybe no literally.

 

Which countries are we talking about? Certainly not your typical EU country, Australia, New Zealand or even Canada? Russia perhaps, but that's another story. I have never met a single person, outside of America, who believes American prisons are too comfortable for prisoners. Conjugal visits are about the only thing thing American prisoners have that prisoners in Europe don't have. Europe doesn't expect its prisoners to work as virtual slaves either.

[bcking 3,157]

29 minutes ago, Boiler said:

So why suggest it.

I said difficult, not impossible. Also, every plan will have limitations and difficulties. 

 

It's no different then suggesting we need "better parents and children"...probably better because it's a realistic suggestion.

[javadown2 308]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:36 AM, jg121783 said:

I am not making an argument about violating gun laws. I am making the argument that criminals don't willingly comply with gun laws. Can you deminstrate where the shooter willingly compiled with any gun laws. If not you don't have an argument here.

This reminds of the saying "A lock only keeps an honest man honest." But without the lock it's open to anyone.....so we still need our laws to keep the honest people honest and the criminals will just keep on being criminals. I don't see how outlawing a clip on a semi-automatic gun will stop anything. Let's just hope that they government doesn't get stupid and try to take away weapons (i'm not saying it will happen, cuz that would be complete chaos in America). But really what is the real answer to this epidemic? There is no more "family" structure or accountability, the MH problems seem to be escalating and the entitled kids feel everyone owes them something. I say a good option is to make the punishments more severe for breaking the laws, make prison a "living hell" that they are scared to go to, basically you should lose pretty much all your rights if you go to prison, put the death penalty back in place. 

 

And I WORK at a prison in one of the most liberal states (WA) so I know what goes on inside the prisons and how many so called rights these guys have....of course it is not where I want to be but they have so much offered to them. 

 

I could go on and on....and Hilary saying this should be a soul searching event is nothing new...each one comes and they offer condolences to the victims and families then nothing happens other then spouting more gun control laws... that is the only options. 

 

Why not get metal detectors at every entrance....pay for security..I've seen schools that introduced clear backpacks being mandatory (pretty funny actually, lol). But at least they are doing something. 

 

A gun law will do nothing...it's just a "lock" that keeps honest folks honest. They are already in place. 

[Sonea 138]

10 hours ago, bcking said:

You used the same article for both links, I believe that was probably in error.

 

Would love to see the paper you were referencing in the second paragraph.

I'm sorry.

 

Here is the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.0964abd1e9a9

 

Scroll down about 2/3rd where they plot each attack on the timeline. It was a real eye opener for me when I first saw this last year (they continue to update it but its actually getting to be an older article).

Edited May 22, 2018 by Sonea

[javadown2 308]

6 hours ago, bcking said:

That's fine but still I'm not seeing any specific suggestions. How do you suggest we create better "children and parent" control? Again it just seems like an impossible "pipe dream" that you can just throw out into the conversation without any real method of making it happen.

 

As I said, I am totally an advocate for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I'd love to have ID's have a marker on them when you are a parent, and then you are banned from buying cigarettes. But that is unlikely to ever happen. "Freedom" and all that junk.

 

I'd love to see:

 

1. Required education for the purchase of a firearm (required training of use, a certificate before you can purchase the weapon)

2. Required safe storage (purchase receipt for a safe/locker depending on what you are purchasing)

3. Mental health evaluation prior to purchase of a weapon - Perhaps a required "screening form" that you bring to your doctor for them to conduct/fill out, and if there are any "red flags" you need a more thorough evaluation by a more experienced professional

4. "Recertification" required with some specified frequency (yearly, every other year, whatever people could agree on) - Requires proof of continued safe practices, safe storage, review of background check, and a new mental health evaluation to show that nothing has changed

 

Safe, responsible gun owners would be able to get through all 4 with no problem (hopefully they are already choosing to do 1 and 2, otherwise I would argue whether they deserve the "safe responsible" title). People who may be at higher risk would have a more difficult time.

I'm sorry to say it but you could put every gun law you can think of out there but it won't do much good because a criminal will ALWAYS find a way to get a gun/pistol and ammo...you can't enforce someone at their home (ie a trigger safety lock/gun safe..etc) 

Education is great, even if it saves one life...nothing wrong with that

Making someone go to a psych doctor to get evaluated...I don't see that happening either...crazy idea(pun intended)

Recertification....again there are aspects that can't be inforced...gun safes and locks at home....making you get a psych evaluation (not a bad idea I suppose). 

 

But in reality your missing the big picture: CRIMINALS WILL BYPASS ALL OF THIS....if you want to do a crime there isn't much stopping you from figuring out a way to get a weapon. 

But the flip side is....taking away the guns in America will NEVER happen (and this is the only gun control that would work to stop mass shootings, no guns=no shootings). But again..this will never happen (and I think it's irrational and I don't even own a gun). 

 

 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

7 hours ago, bcking said:

Strange that we don't see a bunch of hand made guns in countries where it is much more difficult to buy them

I'm pretty sure it's not standard in ANY public education system to teach students how to make "home made guns". Probably hasn't ever been standard in our public education system here (and if it was, likely at least 100 years ago).

Really. You never been to the Philippines have you. Lots and lots of hand made guns.