Abortion Discussion [split topic]

[smilesammich 10,727]

I had two kidney stones at the same time. Women who have had them and given birth say the stones are much worse than childbirth. So I KNOW.

childbirth? now we're talking labor and delivery? you're giving me whiplash today man.

[GandD 5,966]

is promiscuous sex supposed to be a bad thing ?

I kinda think it's an awesome thing.

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

The answer to the question, when does it become murder? is a simple one at law. Legally, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. A human being is a person born alive and living at the time of the unlawful killing. Without getting into the weeds of what is an unlawful killing, and what constitutes malice (basically, intent to kill, intent to cause serious bodily injury, depraved heart recklessness, or under the felony murder rule), you cannot murder a fetus. Several states have fetal homicide statutes, but a homicide is not necessarily a murder, and the statutes do not cover what is a constitutionally protected act like abortion.

I do not care a fig what others' fee-fees might be about "when" it becomes murder, because the answer is, never.

Edited to clarify one aspect -- while all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murders. For a homicide, all you need is a dead body.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Killary

[smilesammich 10,727]

there goes that nasty woman, keepin it 100

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

The answer to the question, when does it become murder? is a simple one at law. Legally, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. A human being is a person born alive and living at the time of the unlawful killing. Without getting into the weeds of what is an unlawful killing, and what constitutes malice (basically, intent to kill, intent to cause serious bodily injury, depraved heart recklessness, or under the felony murder rule), you cannot murder a fetus. Several states have fetal homicide statutes, but a homicide is not necessarily a murder, and the statutes do not cover what is a constitutionally protected act like abortion.

I do not care a fig what others' fee-fees might be about "when" it becomes murder, because the answer is, never.

Edited to clarify one aspect -- while all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murders. For a homicide, all you need is a dead body.

I am somewhat pro choice, but haven't there been cases when a person was charged with an additional count of murder for killing a late term pregnant women.

Not asking to enter this muddy mud pit fray, but out of intellectual curiosity

[Umka36 781]

I am somewhat pro choice, but haven't there been cases when a person was charged with an additional count of murder for killing a late term pregnant women.

Not asking to enter this muddy mud pit fray, but out of intellectual curiosity

I think the term you are referring to is called feticide.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

[Póg mo 1,749]

I've only known one woman who used abortion as a regular source of birth control. Not sure exactly how many she had, but let's just say it was what most people would consider excessive. So, down the road later when she actually wanted to have kids in her late 30s, she basically had compromised her fertility and was rendered barren. Even with modern meds and in vitro, she wasn't able to carry a child. She ended up having multiple miscarriages and then the doctors just told her: "Stop trying. You had your chance when you were younger. It's over now. We're sorry."

Prior to Roe vs Wade a great number of women had back ally abortions using clothes hangers etc.

[millefleur 5,039]

Prior to Roe vs Wade a great number of women had back ally abortions using clothes hangers etc.

Erm, I completely aware of that fact. How is it related at all to what I said? If you had seen my comment on the first page of this discussion, you will see that I mentioned than banning leads to dubious and unsafe methods.

Edited November 5, 2016 by millefleur

[OriZ 3,157]

question still stands. how does a doctor or a court (fcs) determine what is a pregnancy resulting from careless sex. or unprotected sex. what if the condom slipped off mid protected sex. shall we introduce legislation determining the number of sexual partners a person is allowed to have at any given time? so ridiculous. you didn't want to respond to the question because it exposes the motive behind your sloppy rhetoric, and that motive stinks of misogyny. sorry the truth is rough for some to deal with. block me.

I know you weren't talking to me but it just takes me back to the two other times we have had this discussion; Personally, I think both sides are hypocrites here. You have people on the left telling you that even late term, or even partial birth abortions are OK, but they want to abolish capital punishment. Then, you have people on the right say women should not have an abortion, even before viability(say for the sake of this example, the first 20 weeks), even if there is a mom/baby health issue, even in cases of rape or incest, yet, they wholeheartedly embrace capital punishment.

I feel like the only consistent approach here would be to generally be against both, however to allow abortion for the first 20 weeks of pregnancy. I am strongly against late term or partial birth because then it is NOT HER body anymore, there is another human being involved. And quite frankly, whether still inside her body or 2 years later, murder is murder, so I do not see the difference between that, and what Casey Anthony allegedly did. It was her child and would not exist to start with if it wasn't for her. A life is a life, within the body or not.

As far as how to determine the reason for the pregnancy, what I have said in the past is to me at least, it's much more of a moral issue than a legal one. Of course there will never be a way to determine if she just partied, or if she used protection and it just didn't work, or whatever else. Morally, I think some causes for a pregnancy make abortion a horrible decision. Legally, I completely understand we'll never know the difference.

The bottom line is I don't think government can or should stop abortions from happening, but I do think there should be a time limit, again, with the exception of health of mom or baby. My personal view is 20 weeks.

[smilesammich 10,727]

I know you weren't talking to me but it just takes me back to the two other times we have had this discussion; Personally, I think both sides are hypocrites here. You have people on the left telling you that even late term, or even partial birth abortions are OK, but they want to abolish capital punishment. Then, you have people on the right say women should not have an abortion, even before viability(say for the sake of this example, the first 20 weeks), even if there is a mom/baby health issue, even in cases of rape or incest, yet, they wholeheartedly embrace capital punishment.

I feel like the only consistent approach here would be to generally be against both, however to allow abortion for the first 20 weeks of pregnancy. I am strongly against late term or partial birth because then it is NOT HER body anymore, there is another human being involved. And quite frankly, whether still inside her body or 2 years later, murder is murder, so I do not see the difference between that, and what Casey Anthony allegedly did. It was her child and would not exist to start with if it wasn't for her. A life is a life, within the body or not.

As far as how to determine the reason for the pregnancy, what I have said in the past is to me at least, it's much more of a moral issue than a legal one. Of course there will never be a way to determine if she just partied, or if she used protection and it just didn't work, or whatever else. Morally, I think some causes for a pregnancy make abortion a horrible decision. Legally, I completely understand we'll never know the difference.

The bottom line is I don't think government can or should stop abortions from happening, but I do think there should be a time limit, again, with the exception of health of mom or baby. My personal view is 20 weeks.

yep, i remember all the misinformation from before. i can't do your research for you and you seem pretty set in your views. i will say the 'exception of health of mom or baby' is the broader category in later procedures anyway. and casey anthony has nothing to do with any of this.

[OriZ 3,157]

yep, i remember all the misinformation from before. i can't do your research for you and you seem pretty set in your views. i will say the 'exception of health of mom or baby' is the broader category in later procedures anyway. and casey anthony has nothing to do with any of this.

Actually has alot to do with it, and there was no misinformation. Research IS what I do. I ain't seein anything consistent coming from anyone else, on this or on anything. That's why I vote for me

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

I know you weren't talking to me but it just takes me back to the two other times we have had this discussion; Personally, I think both sides are hypocrites here. You have people on the left telling you that even late term, or even partial birth abortions are OK, but they want to abolish capital punishment. Then, you have people on the right say women should not have an abortion, even before viability(say for the sake of this example, the first 20 weeks), even if there is a mom/baby health issue, even in cases of rape or incest, yet, they wholeheartedly embrace capital punishment.

I feel like the only consistent approach here would be to generally be against both, however to allow abortion for the first 20 weeks of pregnancy. I am strongly against late term or partial birth because then it is NOT HER body anymore, there is another human being involved. And quite frankly, whether still inside her body or 2 years later, murder is murder, so I do not see the difference between that, and what Casey Anthony allegedly did. It was her child and would not exist to start with if it wasn't for her. A life is a life, within the body or not.

As far as how to determine the reason for the pregnancy, what I have said in the past is to me at least, it's much more of a moral issue than a legal one. Of course there will never be a way to determine if she just partied, or if she used protection and it just didn't work, or whatever else. Morally, I think some causes for a pregnancy make abortion a horrible decision. Legally, I completely understand we'll never know the difference.

The bottom line is I don't think government can or should stop abortions from happening, but I do think there should be a time limit, again, with the exception of health of mom or baby. My personal view is 20 weeks.

If I liked to type I would write pretty much what you wrote. Spit on and what I think the majority of us believe

[OriZ 3,157]

If I liked to type I would write pretty much what you wrote. Spit on and what I think the majority of us believe

Apparently it's just a bunch of misinformation and some of it has nothing to do with anything This is VJ...don't assume the majority of us believe that, only those of us stuck in the middle of the road.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

Apparently it's just a bunch of misinformation and some of it has nothing to do with anything This is VJ...don't assume the majority of us believe that, only those of us stuck in the middle of the road.

Most of the people I know are pro choice but against abortion. I have never met a person that is pro late term abortion other than for the health of the mother.

I have also never met a person that was so anti abortion, they did not make exceptions for health of the mother rape etc.

I would support a late term abortion if it were discovered the baby would be born so deformed it would lead a life of suffering.

If we can love or animals so much we can end Thier suffering , surely we could love a human that much.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

Apparently it's just a bunch of misinformation and some of it has nothing to do with anything This is VJ...don't assume the majority of us believe that, only those of us stuck in the middle of the road.

The middle of the road can be tricky with so much mud being thrown up from the ditches. It's nice to have company in the middle of the road