Woman 'denied a termination' dies in hospital

[SMOKE 1,426]

You're the one attempting to discredit what was reported in the story, I believe in this case Google is your friend. I really don't care either way.

i'm not trying to discredit anything. i stated fact. if you want to continue relying on fiction, knock yourself out. i think deep down you do care.

[Teddy B 17,251]

i'm not trying to discredit anything. i stated fact. if you want to continue relying on fiction, knock yourself out. i think deep down you do care.

[SMOKE 1,426]

[Marilyn. 340]

I'm sure you'll tell me the 1 week and 5 days makes a huge difference but: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1380282/Earliest-surviving-premature-baby-goes-home-parents.html

well, actually almost 2 weeks would make a huge difference...

[Dakine10 5,452]

I'm sure you'll tell me the 1 week and 5 days makes a huge difference but: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1380282/Earliest-surviving-premature-baby-goes-home-parents.html

Yes it does. At that age a day is important. They won't even give a chance of survival less than 23 weeks gestation (because statistically it's close to zero). Just 2 weeks later, by 25 weeks, it goes up to almost 80%.

A baby born at 23 weeks is going to get full intervention in a neonatal ICU. A baby born at 22 weeks is not usually resuscitated. Less than 23 weeks - survival is rare. More than 24 weeks, and it's rare not to survive. That's how much difference a week makes.

[Andie 147]

Religion was the reason, according to the story, they were given for not performing the procedure. So if the story happened the way it's presented in this story, then it is partly to blame. Religion is sadly a driving force as to why people will or will not do things - good or bad. I would hate to see anyone else's religious beliefs negatively impact MY life. Especially somewhere like a hospital.

The care provided in a medical institution should not be determined by religious beliefs over and above the best achievable outcomes for the patient/patients involved.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There is no case on record of a baby surviving delivery at 20 weeks gestation. If you actually saw this happen, then you witnessed a miracle, and also, unfortunately, one that was not recorded in the medical literature anywhere.

Yes it does. At that age a day is important. They won't even give a chance of survival less than 23 weeks gestation (because statistically it's close to zero). Just 2 weeks later, by 25 weeks, it goes up to almost 80%.

A baby born at 23 weeks is going to get full intervention in a neonatal ICU. A baby born at 22 weeks is not usually resuscitated. Less than 23 weeks - survival is rare. More than 24 weeks, and it's rare not to survive. That's how much difference a week makes.

Okay, that's twice in one thread. How many times do we need to say it?

Please.

[Darnell 8,478]

Why would I want it to be?

It makes for better reading.

[keysjangle 145]

The point is:

A woman died when they knew her baby was going to die anyway. Had they intervened and performed the medical termination, she would have grieved, moved on and had lots more healthy babies (hopefully.) But now, because she was denied the procedure because of being in a "Catholic country", she is dead, her husband is alone, and she won't be able to have more kids. Her family has lost her and any chance of her progeny. But hey, it's alright because being Catholic is much more important than a dying woman's struggle to save her life.

[Darnell 8,478]

Gervl - thanks for the summation. IMO, yer spot on.

[david'sgirl 134]

what happened is "standard of care" in many countries. termination of a viable is not justifiable unless there is imminent threat to the mother. 20 weeks is viable. it is possible to give drugs that inhibit labour for as long as 3-5 weeks, and other drugs that cause fetal lung maturation, allowing for successful delivery as early as 20 weeks.

what happened here was that the caretakers tried to save the baby, knowing full well of the risk of infection that the cervical dilation presented. i am sure they treated it with a broad spectrum anti-biotic. in clinical i attended a similar case with 4cm dilation and a LEEP impairment. the mother and child both survived the hospitalization (15th thru 20th week) and delivery.

sometimes standard of care gives the intended result. sometimes it does not, but it's the best we have.

this is not about "religious beliefs". it is about the life of an unborn child. when you hold your first child in your hands you will understand. when you hold your first grandchild you will know it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How can you say this is not about religious beliefs? The woman was denied care and allowed to die because the physicians and hospital are Catholic. The patient was not catholic so why on earth should the providers values apply to her?

You say a 20 week fetus is viable? Really? Have you seen a preemie? I am an RN and I want to tell you that babies 36 weeks can be critically ill. Babies under 25 weeks suffer and often do not survive. They usually have a myriad of serious conditions such as immature hypoplastic lungs so they need to be on a ventilator. They have fused eyes and once open develop retrolental fibrplasia (blind) from long term oxygen. Most have heart defects such as Patent ductus arteriosus or patent foramen ovale which is a hole in the heart and will need surgery to correct. Many will suffer brain hemorrhage with or without permanent deficits similar to an adult with a stoke. I could go on and on. When I miscarried at 22 weeks I was told it was Mother Nature's way of taking care of things. If the entire contents had not self evacuated the doctor had already told me I would need a D & C to be sure there was nothing left to make me sick. In this country that is pretty standard. It is terrifying to think you could be in what is supposed to be a civilized country and be denied care. That mother and fetus were left to suffer and die as if we were back in the middle ages. There is no excuse for not providing medical treatment when it is available. This is a completely unnecessary tragedy.

[david'sgirl 134]

Yes it does. At that age a day is important. They won't even give a chance of survival less than 23 weeks gestation (because statistically it's close to zero). Just 2 weeks later, by 25 weeks, it goes up to almost 80%.

A baby born at 23 weeks is going to get full intervention in a neonatal ICU. A baby born at 22 weeks is not usually resuscitated. Less than 23 weeks - survival is rare. More than 24 weeks, and it's rare not to survive. That's how much difference a week makes.

Absolutely. Every day matters at that gestational age. This baby had no chance and the mother's life should never have been placed in danger. IMHO those doctors are guilty of neglect and would be up for malpractice in the USA.

[james&olya 1,121]

what happened is "standard of care" in many countries. termination of a viable is not justifiable unless there is imminent threat to the mother. 20 weeks is viable. it is possible to give drugs that inhibit labour for as long as 3-5 weeks, and other drugs that cause fetal lung maturation, allowing for successful delivery as early as 20 weeks.

what happened here was that the caretakers tried to save the baby, knowing full well of the risk of infection that the cervical dilation presented. i am sure they treated it with a broad spectrum anti-biotic. in clinical i attended a similar case with 4cm dilation and a LEEP impairment. the mother and child both survived the hospitalization (15th thru 20th week) and delivery.

sometimes standard of care gives the intended result. sometimes it does not, but it's the best we have.

this is not about "religious beliefs". it is about the life of an unborn child. when you hold your first child in your hands you will understand. when you hold your first grandchild you will know it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You are WRONG on so many points!

1. Seventeen weeks is NOT viable. Neither is 20 weeks. Rare survivals have been reported from 23-24 weeks.

2. Fully dilated and with ruptured membranes is hugely different from 4cm dilated! Sepsis will always develop in the setting this unfortunate woman found herself in. No fetal survival has ever occurred in this situation!

3. This is NOT 'standard of care' in any advanced country on this planet. Maybe it is what the leaders of a few religious organizations want but it is NOT what modern medical science recommends!

4. It IS entirely about religious belief. Most civilizations do not confer 'personhood' until birth. That is your religion that does that. The unborn fetus does not become a 'child' until birth, and especially not prior to viability.

5. I have held my first child in my hands. Also their younger brothers. I have never had to do what this poor husband had to do, hold his dead wife in his hands. Maybe if you ever had to do that you might understand.

[james&olya 1,121]

this is standard of care. as a trained RN i know about this stuff, maybe just a little more than you do.

My education and degree trumps yours by a substantial margin. So don't toss around your 'trained' RN status on here!

[Dakine10 5,452]

abortion is legal in ireland. if it is performed to save the mothers life.

I think you're wrong Smoke. I just could not understand why they wouldn't induce delivery in this case. Well apparently there is no provision for abortion if the mother's life is at risk, according to this article.

Ireland hospital denied life saving abortion

DUBLIN, Ireland The debate over legalizing abortion in Ireland flared Wednesday after the government confirmed a miscarrying woman suffering from blood poisoning was refused a quick termination of her pregnancy and died in an Irish hospital.

Prime Minister Enda Kenny said he was awaiting findings from three investigations into the death of Savita Halappanavar, an Indian living in Galway since 2008 who was 17 weeks along in her pregnancy. The 31-year-old's case highlights the bizarre legal limbo in which pregnant women facing severe health problems in predominantly Catholic Ireland can find themselves.

Ireland's constitution officially bans abortion, but a 1992 Supreme Court ruling found it should be legalized for situations when the woman's life is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. Five governments since have refused to pass a law resolving the confusion, leaving Irish hospitals reluctant to terminate pregnancies except in the most obviously life-threatening circumstances.

University Hospital Galway in western Ireland declined to say whether doctors believed Halappanavar's blood poisoning could have been reversed had she received an abortion rather than wait for the fetus to die on its own. In a statement it described its own investigation into the death, and a parallel probe by the national government's Health Service Executive, as "standard practice" whenever a pregnant woman dies in a hospital. The Galway coroner also planned a public inquest.

Ireland's first abortion clinic opens to protests

Savita Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.

"Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby," he told The Irish Times in a telephone interview from Belgaum, southwest India. "When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning, Savita asked: `If they could not save the baby, could they induce to end the pregnancy?' The consultant said: `As long as there is a fetal heartbeat, we can't do anything."'

"Again on Tuesday morning ... the consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita said: "I am neither Irish nor Catholic," but they said there was nothing they could do," Praveen Halappanavar was quoted as saying.

He said his wife vomited repeatedly and collapsed in a restroom that night, but doctors wouldn't terminate the fetus because its heart was still beating.

The fetus died the following day and its remains were surgically removed. Within hours, Praveen Halappanavar said, his wife was placed under sedation in intensive care with systemic blood poisoning and he was never able to speak with her again. By Saturday her heart, kidneys and liver had stopped working and she was pronounced dead early Sunday, Oct. 28.

Praveen Halappanavar said he took his wife's remains back to India for a Hindu funeral and cremation Nov. 3. News of the circumstances that led to her death emerged Tuesday in Galway after the Indian community canceled the city's annual Diwali festival. Savita Halappanavar, a dentist, had been one of the festival's main organizers.

Opposition politicians appealed Wednesday for Kenny's government to introduce legislation immediately to make the 1992 Supreme Court judgment part of statutory law. Barring any such bill, the only legislation defining the illegality of abortion in Ireland dates to 1861 when the entire island was part of the United Kingdom. That British law, still valid here due to Irish inaction on the matter, states it is a crime to "procure a miscarriage."