Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Phil N 4]

Here are my answers to your post:

PhilN, you do have a need to pathologize this woman. You are continually referring to her as having a personality disorder. A personality disorder is a serious condition, which only professionals should be diagnosing. I am not offended about your diagnosing her, I am surprised. But I understand that it helps you to devalue her. It helps you provide an explanation for whatever has happened between you two. You are in no way a mental health professional, so your "exceedingly clear" diagnosis is bogus.

You are right. I did not read a lot of your earlier posts. I read the original one where you described your situation; I sympathized with you because it's got to be difficult for you. When you started discussing BPD, I started wondering about your motivations. What are you trying to accomplish by writing here? I initially thought it was because you wanted to get information from others who are more experienced in immigration matters. Over time, your interest seems to have changed dramatically. You are diagnosing this woman, on an immigration forum. Are you looking for confirmation on your diagnosis here? Do you want support? Do you want somebody to reassure you in some way?

Wow, I am amazed at what you write. You go from referring to your fiancee as "my girl" (implying caring, protection, etc) to "potential BPD" (completely devaluing and belittling her). Of course the woman from the clinic was hostile and suspicious toward you. It is not typical for people to diagnose others and then to try and convince them that they have irreparable issues.

I know of several effective programs. Why would I be pointing them to you when I do not know whether this woman does have a personality disorder? I see what you are doing as abusive. If you do not believe you can have a relationship with this woman, cut your losses. How does it help you to have her in treatment? Logistically, how would she stay in the country for this treatment? I thought you were reconnecting with your American ex. How is the Russian fiancee fitting in this situation? You sure like to complicate your life. I highly doubt that you are as naive and gullible as you portray yourself to be.

PhilN, these "BPDs" are actually people who happen to have a personality disorder. Their diagnosis is one aspect of them. Lots of them are highly successful professionally and personally, but they do struggle with certain things. Just like we all struggle with things but to a smaller degree. It's incredible how much you need to distance yourself emotionally from this women. She got under your skin in some way...

Well, I have certainly pressed your buttons!

The original purpose was to get information from others to help me understand the situation and make informed decisions.

Part of my motivation is to share my story with other future K1 sponsors, so they can see how things turn out, given a certain behavior pattern in a fiance/fiancee.

I have seen the "Don't touch me, marry me immediately" story play out for male K1 sponsors of former Soviet fiancees, and I've yet to see a happy ending. I've seen one man have his life nearly destroyed by it. He was my roommate three years ago. A good man, who was put through hell, phony domestic violence allegations, cut off from his children, still financially responsible for his wife's auto accidents, tickets, etc. His wife was diagnosed bipolar, and it worsened over a six-year period. He eventually prevailed, after the system extracted nearly $100K and three years from him, in what should have been a very cut-and-dried case of one parent not being able to effectively care for young children, due to mental illness.

Another man, who I met here on VJ about 3 months ago, wound up taking his teenage son and going on an extended camping trip, to get away from his Russian wife, and keep her from creating phony domestic violence charges against him. His mistake was in giving in to this manipulation and marrying his fiancee immediately and expecting things to get better after marriage, once the stress of "will he marry me" was removed. At last check, a week ago he was still "camping" while his wife occupied the home with her two daughters. And this is an ex-law enforcement guy, with a clean record, security clearances, etc.

You strike me as a gender feminist who will always take the woman's side, no matter what. The man is always wrong. The man is always somehow devaluing or objectifying the woman. I met plenty like you in family court, where the presumption seems to always be against the man, and the woman is always the victim.

And now you call me "abusive" as well. Do you have issues with men in your life? Perhaps there are male abusers in your past, and you are making ME guilty for THEIR actions, simply because I am male? By the way, this is a very, very clever and calculating woman I am dealing with. Am I "abusive" because I don't give in to her manipulation?

To top it off, you try to cleverly sneak in labels of "naive" and "gullible" for me. No, I'm just a man who gives people the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to.

I stand by my amateur diagnosis of BPD as her major issue. If that offends you, feel free to call me names and use labels (bogus) that devalue me. So, your approach is to belittle and devalue me. Are we projecting a little bit here, putting your issues onto me? And I have never suggested that BPD was irreparable, only that it would be a LOT, LOT of work to work through. So please don't refer to people with BPD as having an irreparable condition. They are people.

And if you know of other effective programs for BPD, other than DBT, it would have been helpful to share them. Please demonstrate your superior knowledge and resources by sharing. Just in case she actually DOES have BPD. And your direct experience in working with people with BPD is?? And you have helped how many of them get better?? FYI, I'm not looking for confirmation of my amateur diagnosis here. This would be the wrong place. There are much better BPD resources elsewhere on the Internet.

Rather than looking for the truth, your posts are coming across as trying to act smug and superior. You will just "zap" me and my ignorance with your (apparently) trained analysis of the situation, and twist it so I am the abuser and the villain. I'm male, so I must be the bad guy here, right?

[Phil N 4]

Dude,

I am not sure anymore about who's got bigger issues, you or the Russian lady. It does not matter. You two do not match and no, it will never work for you two. Take care of yourself and try to find a way to get both of you out of this horrific situation with the least damage possible.

Without question, it's ME who has the bigger issues, LOL! My issues have issues!

The difference is that I know I have issues...

She showed me another side today, that I was clearly in for a VAWA and/or family court nightmare, had I married her...

The last couple nights, I've asked her to give me a grocery list, or let me take her shopping for groceries, and the response was F--- YOU! When I got any English words from her at all, that is.

Today, I come home from work at noon hour, and she came up to my room, pleading for money for groceries for her and her child. Again, I told her I would take her, or she could give me a list and I would get whatever she wants, if she doesn't want to go with me, but I can't do it until after work. So now it's an "emergency" where I have to address it right now, even though there is still plenty of food in the house. Turns out she was videotaping me, acting the part... I can't complain too loudly, because I have taken to videotaping some of our interactions, to try to keep them civil. She will often hit me when I am not videoing.

Also at the door, I wanted to end the conversation and shut my door. She physically would not let me close the door, and stuck her hand in to try to bait me into closing the door on her hand, to make me the abusive bad guy.

She insists she won't go with me in a car, because she's "afraid of being alone in a car with me". I think she's been reading "Domestic Violence coaching" materials the last couple days, and is practicing them with me. The irony is that I have video from a scene in the car a couple weeks ago where she proclaims that it's OK for her to hit me, after she had hit me while in the car, and I told her not to do that.

The awful and ugly part is that her 15 year old daughter is seeing and being affected by all this.

[106206 15]

Dude your issues at this point are best addressed by an attorney practised in family law.

You do not have immigration drama you have crazy people drama.

Call a qualified attorney and do not go back to your house unless you have a witness. I mean really don't go back there. I think you can just kick her out actually. Put her up in a hotel or something. Attorney can advise you on this.

Then let her leave (where and how is up to her) then go work on yourself. And don't beat yourself up for it. Just go fix you to your own liking.

I think that course of action could bring an end to your immediate issues with this person but I might be simplifying things.

Edited July 30, 2011 by caterino

[Phil N 4]

People can be co-dependents to certain kinds of abusive or manipulative people, and if this is a pattern in your life then it will be important to understand why. I didn't understand that there were people actively hunting for me, and that they already had years of practice using their tactics on others. Manipulative personalities avoid those who look at actions instead of listening to words, who are unforgiving, and inherently suspicious of the motives of others. They have nothing to work with there. A sociopath looks for a neurotic, not another sociopath.

Fifty things on the list... hmmmm. I don't know what obsessive-compulsive disorder that would be symptomatic of. Reminds me of the old joke: I was looking for the perfect woman, and when I found her she was looking for the perfect man.

Well, I shortened the list. It used to be over 65 items. But that was too obsessive even for me.

The right kind of codependent can be a wonderful match. Personally, I'm partial to "giver" codependents who love taking care of me.

Of course, there's a responsibility to not always take that giving too much for granted, and help her have good feelings about herself, fun experiences, and positive emotions. Yeah, romance and stuff like that.

[stronger 43]

Please for the love of God. Lock this thread and get me off this list. I can't figure out how to stop the messages. And Phil, you know the answer. Stop asking strangers and airing your biz. Talk to her dammit!!!! Geez! It's been 2 weeks!!!

[HannahP 119]

Look. I was diagnosed with BPD at 15 -- I'm 25 now and still carry the diagnosis, although it's been in remission since I grew out of being a teenager. (Go figure.) I have been through all the traditional treatments for BPD - DBT, CBT, numerous psych hospitalizations. I am more on the impulsive/self-destructive side than the unstable relationship side of BPD.

As someone with BPD who has been in a relationship with my husband for ten years now...I will tell you that you're not really helping anything by airing your dirty laundry here. If you want to talk, you either need to find a message board that is specific to your concerns (they exist, trust me) or try talking to an actual professional. However, it seems apparent to me that you have no interest in continuing a relationship with your fiancee. If your fiancee actually has BPD, the best way to end this relationship would be to break it off immediately and institute firm boundaries in regards to your separation. For someone who has shown quite an interest in BPD traits and habits, I find it disheartening that you would rather string along your fiancee and post all the OMG SCANDALOUS UPDATES!! here than do what all the book readin' tells you to do.

Edited July 30, 2011 by HannahP

[rlogan 2,036]

Rlogan, personality disorders are by definition clinical. I know that you have read a lot of psychology/self-help books, but that does not make you a psychologist.

Really? and here I was representing myself as a clinical psychologist and all...

Maybe you could point out where I did that. The question is why you would insinuate I did so, or that I am too stupid to understand such an elementary thing. By the way in a lot of this literature that is specifically a tactic people with personality disorders do - they go on the attack "invalidating" anyone with knowledge of manipulative behavior. What they say is exactly what you just said: you are not a board certified clinical psychologist and therefore what you say is invalid. That is of course a logical fallacy. You have to show what it is someone says that is not true, and cite your source.

You make sweeping statements that are completely unfounded. There are people with BPD who have outgrown it. It happens. There are people who have BDP traits, and not the whole disorder. Treatment outcomes vary. From the poster's description, you do not know much about this woman. You know only his version of events, and it's extremely biased.

I appreciate your posts. I have read several of them; however, let mental health professionals talk about psychiatric diagnoses. The few or so books you have read - do not qualify you to speak about this area.

See how you feel qualfied to pose as a clinical psychologist yourself in handing out your opinion, like this one right here, without any background whatsoever? How are your actions consistent with your own words here?

If you want to point out as many of these authors do that remission is possible, or at least keeping it at bay is possible, well yes I agree and this "disagreement" is completely without basis. But there again neither of us is a clinical psychologist. So despite the fact we agree on this, there is no basis for either one of us saying it in the first place, despite the clinical psychologists themselves saying it. According to your premise.

Cheers anyway.

Edited July 30, 2011 by rlogan

[TBoneTX 43,131]

[...] this is an immigration forum and while some of us can reasonably expect to offer valid immigration related advice, none of us are qualified to evaluate a relationship or a psychological 'evaluation' of one person in that relationship and should refrain from doing more than offering our opinions about the immigration aspects of the situation.

Can we please return to this approach? OP, what do you plan to do from an immigration standpoint, and when?

[Phil N 4]

Please for the love of God. Lock this thread and get me off this list. I can't figure out how to stop the messages. And Phil, you know the answer. Stop asking strangers and airing your biz. Talk to her dammit!!!! Geez! It's been 2 weeks!!!

Talk to her? How would this be possible when the only English words she will say to me are "F--- You!" Otherwise, she will speak only in Russian, apparently cursing and me and/or mocking me in front of her daughter. It started a couple weeks ago, when she told me that if I displease her, she loses her motivation to speak to me in English, and will speak to me only in Russian. The last two days, we are starting to almost communicate in email, so that is a positive development.

To stop getting messaegs? Possibly you are "subscribed" to the list or this thread, so check your subscription settings to see if that's the problem, and how you stop receiving messages.

Can we please return to this approach? OP, what do you plan to do from an immigration standpoint, and when?

Right now I am checking pricing on changing the return tickets to send her back to her country sooner, like ASAP.

If she decides she wants to stay and do BPD assessment and, if indicated, treatment, I will make that possible for her.

For now, we are mostly avoiding each other and I'm spending as little time at the house as possible. She and her daughter normally sleep until around noon or 2pm.

I'm hoping she will soon be willing to speak to me in English in person again, because that would make it a lot easier to discuss and negotiate and figure out what to do from here.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Phil N

[cdneh 3,112]

I've only just seen, and read, this thread.

Phil, even if she would agree to assessment and treatment, and stick with it, you are going to run out of time. You already have less than 90 days now by quite a lot.

It's clear to me, and I see a few other posters here, that this relationship is not going to work. Marrying her isn't going to solve a thing. It may, in fact, make things considerably more difficult.

You need to pack them up and send them home. No amount of rationalization, assigning psychiatric illness, or assigning blame is going to be of help. It isn't working, it will never be the sort of relationship you hoped to attain. Full Stop.

[Stuart and Thea 95]

Wow Phil, you've got yourself in a whole lot of trouble. I think you have terrible judgement, and are not ready for a relationship, with someone healthy or otherwise. Why would you bring someone over from another country to spend your life with if you hadn't already known that they were someone you wanted to marry? Most couples on here already have the wedding date planned when they get off the plane. Yes, you have 90 days to figure it out, and in this case, thank god! Now you just have to figure out how to get her out of the house!

As to the Borderline Personality Disorder, I find it disturbing that you are diagnosing her with this based on this single life changing event. It's possible she has it, or it's just possible that she is just after marriage for other reasons. You don't seem to be able to decide that yourself either, saying that she just wants security for her and her daughter, and now for VAWA. It's even possible that she loved you, and came to be with you only to find herself in a situation different than she had expected and hoped for. I'd love to hear her side of the story, and wonder what diagnoses she could give to you?

This is the diagnostic criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder by the way:

Official DSM-IV Criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
   
2. a pattern of unstable & intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
   
3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self
   
4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g. spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
   
5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
   
6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
   
7. chronic feelings of emptiness
   
8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
   
9. transient, stress related paranoia or severe dissociative symptoms
   

The DSM (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual) contains the DEFINITIONS of psychiatric disorders. These definitions - which are criteria based - are the results of consensus building from hundreds of psychiatrists of many different perspectives and belief systems from all over the world, not just the U.S.A. Definitions are regularly being revised as research and other information becomes available. The DSM IV is the latest edition, being published in 1994.

Like other diagnoses, diabetes is established by specific criteria such as fasting sugar greater than 126 on two separate occasions. Physicians can’t say things like "I don’t believe you have diabetes because you’re not thirsty," and don’t have the right to establish their own criteria. Physicians do have the right to explain and treat disorders according to their knowledge, training expertise - but not to establish their own criteria. If a physician disagrees with the established criteria, he/she needs to explain the reasoning in the chart. An example is diabetes: a person in the hospital on intravenous sugar will have elevated fasting sugar readings, but this doesn’t mean diabetes because of extenuating circumstances.

It’s crucial to remember that it is a criteria-based illness and is described as a "pervasive pattern...beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts..." For the BPD to be diagnosed, five of the nine criteria need to fit this definition.

I'm not sure she fits even 3 of these, though it's possible that she was like this before this current situation. If not, she would not be diagnosed with this disorder.

So, let's just say that she doesn't meet the criteria for diagnosis. Let's just say she's a Russian woman who moved her daughter to the US to make a better life for her with her new husband as her father. Or not, let's just say she's a Russian woman who used an American to bring her daughter to the US. The first scenario is out of the question now anyway, even if it was once true for her. The second scenario, if you don't play your part in it, then you're of the hook for it. What's left for you to do is to figure out how to get her out of your home.

Simple solution?

Rent a hotel room and move her and her daughter into it. Pay it till the end of the 90 days. What happens after that is not your concern.

Advice for the future? Don't look to get married, you'll be looking over your shoulder for a while and trying to analyze any future potential mate. You're not a doctor and can't be expected to get it right, so you're probably going to get it wrong, a lot. Might let some good ones slip by that way... Just find someone who you like, and have fun.

[Phil N 4]

Wow Phil, you've got yourself in a whole lot of trouble. I think you have terrible judgement, and are not ready for a relationship, with someone healthy or otherwise. Why would you bring someone over from another country to spend your life with if you hadn't already known that they were someone you wanted to marry? Most couples on here already have the wedding date planned when they get off the plane. Yes, you have 90 days to figure it out, and in this case, thank god! Now you just have to figure out how to get her out of the house!

As to the Borderline Personality Disorder, I find it disturbing that you are diagnosing her with this based on this single life changing event. It's possible she has it, or it's just possible that she is just after marriage for other reasons. You don't seem to be able to decide that yourself either, saying that she just wants security for her and her daughter, and now for VAWA. It's even possible that she loved you, and came to be with you only to find herself in a situation different than she had expected and hoped for. I'd love to hear her side of the story, and wonder what diagnoses she could give to you?

This is the diagnostic criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder by the way:

I'm not sure she fits even 3 of these, though it's possible that she was like this before this current situation. If not, she would not be diagnosed with this disorder.

So, let's just say that she doesn't meet the criteria for diagnosis. Let's just say she's a Russian woman who moved her daughter to the US to make a better life for her with her new husband as her father. Or not, let's just say she's a Russian woman who used an American to bring her daughter to the US. The first scenario is out of the question now anyway, even if it was once true for her. The second scenario, if you don't play your part in it, then you're of the hook for it. What's left for you to do is to figure out how to get her out of your home.

Simple solution?

Rent a hotel room and move her and her daughter into it. Pay it till the end of the 90 days. What happens after that is not your concern.

Advice for the future? Don't look to get married, you'll be looking over your shoulder for a while and trying to analyze any future potential mate. You're not a doctor and can't be expected to get it right, so you're probably going to get it wrong, a lot. Might let some good ones slip by that way... Just find someone who you like, and have fun.

The reason I believe BPD is involved is largely based on experiences with her during my two visits to her city, looking back and seeing the pattern, which now continues in the USA. I spent one week in her city in April 2010, and two weeks back in April 2011. There's a lot I haven't shared here, believe it or not. She was also widowed about 2 years before I met her. I looked into widow traits, and decided that the emotional ups and downs were largely explained by being a recent widow. I also decided that she was just feeling very emotional, contemplating all the changes. She also explained that she was very nervous, worried whether I would take her or not. Also, she was in survival mode in her country, just getting by. I decided that cultural differences were responsible for many of our misunderstandings. We talked a lot about her emotional ups and downs. She assured me that she would be just a normal calm woman once she arrived in the USA. So I gave the most weight to the widow explanation, and by many accounts, once widows settle down, finish their grieving, they can be great partners. She does have a lot of really great qualities, and we did have some percentage of good times during the visit, I decided to roll the dice, hoping I would get more of the good once she got here.

Once she got here, the patterns were the same, only worse. She did not settle down and become a normal calm woman. There was absolutely no pleasing her. I posted on this list asking for help. Several people suggested she could be bipolar. She doesn't fit the criteria for that. Bipolar materials suggested that BPD is sometmes misdiagnosed as bipolar. I looked at BPD. Nearly all the BPD criteria fit her behavior. ALL the BPD-related materials on the Internet and in several books (Stop Walking On Eggshells) describe her behavior to a "T". So I went down the BPD path. It fit. NPD doesn't fit. Bipolar doesn't fit. None of the other things out there really fit.

So I don't really care if people agree with my "amateur diagnosis" of BPD. I'm pretty much certain that's what's going on with her. I am sharing the info above so people have more info on how things got to this point. I hadn't mentioned the widow angle previously. That was what caused me to make a lot of excuses for her and overlook her behaviors. The widow aspect probably plays into this somewhat, but my belief is that widowhood is not the primary issue, and is more in a role of triggering and exacerbating her existing BPD issues.

Yes, I have my own issues. I have never disputed that. I like to think I know what most of my own issues are. I don't claim to be blameless or perfect.

Anyway, now the task at hand is to figure out how to clean up this mess.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Wow Phil, you've got yourself in a whole lot of trouble. I think you have terrible judgement, and are not ready for a relationship, with someone healthy or otherwise. Why would you bring someone over from another country to spend your life with if you hadn't already known that they were someone you wanted to marry? Most couples on here already have the wedding date planned when they get off the plane. Yes, you have 90 days to figure it out, and in this case, thank god! Now you just have to figure out how to get her out of the house!

As to the Borderline Personality Disorder, I find it disturbing that you are diagnosing her with this based on this single life changing event. It's possible she has it, or it's just possible that she is just after marriage for other reasons. You don't seem to be able to decide that yourself either, saying that she just wants security for her and her daughter, and now for VAWA. It's even possible that she loved you, and came to be with you only to find herself in a situation different than she had expected and hoped for. I'd love to hear her side of the story, and wonder what diagnoses she could give to you?

This is the diagnostic criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder by the way:

I'm not sure she fits even 3 of these, though it's possible that she was like this before this current situation. If not, she would not be diagnosed with this disorder.

So, let's just say that she doesn't meet the criteria for diagnosis. Let's just say she's a Russian woman who moved her daughter to the US to make a better life for her with her new husband as her father. Or not, let's just say she's a Russian woman who used an American to bring her daughter to the US. The first scenario is out of the question now anyway, even if it was once true for her. The second scenario, if you don't play your part in it, then you're of the hook for it. What's left for you to do is to figure out how to get her out of your home.

Simple solution?

Rent a hotel room and move her and her daughter into it. Pay it till the end of the 90 days. What happens after that is not your concern.

Advice for the future? Don't look to get married, you'll be looking over your shoulder for a while and trying to analyze any future potential mate. You're not a doctor and can't be expected to get it right, so you're probably going to get it wrong, a lot. Might let some good ones slip by that way... Just find someone who you like, and have fun.

If i could have I would have hit the plus sign a dozen times..

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

Yes, please get her a hotel room and call it a day. Why is she still in your house? And I gotta say... who repeats "beach, ladies' room" over and over for conversation?

Edited August 1, 2011 by Harpa Timsah

[Phil N 4]

Yes, please get her a hotel room and call it a day. Why is she still in your house? And I gotta say... who repeats "beach, ladies' room" over and over for conversation?

One moment things are playful and fun, we are playing with language differences, she asks me to say "beach", and we are laughing about how their Russian ears can't tell the difference between "beach" and "b*tch". So one moment it's all in play and everyone is laughing and having fun. We head to the bathrooms, which are on the road to the beach. The beach is visible, a couple hundred yards away. I point to "beach" and say it, then I point to "ladies room" and say it. Later, I find I she is accusing me of calling them b*tches while telling them to go to the ladies room. Very consistent with BPD trait, "are you frequently accused of doing things you never did, saying things you did not say, and then when you try to explain, do you find that the other person doesn't believe you"?

There are many more such examples, and it's wearing me out.

I have another place she can stay until I can arrange a sooner ticket back. It's a different house I own. She seems to be wavering on whether she wants to go back or not. So I wonder if I am about to be "Hoovered", i.e., she will attempt to suck me back in, in BPD-speak. As the book title says, "I Hate You! Don't Leave Me!" I am just hoping to be able to have a calm conversation with her to discuss alternatives and plans. Right now, spending the money ($1000 or so) to change the ticket to sooner seems like an unsafe bet; I worry she would find some excuse to not go, (a classic BPD "countermove") and I would be out the change fees, and still have her hanging around. Guess I'll just get the ticket change numbers and dates options and go from there.