Has this story ever turned out well for American man and Russian woman?

[Phil N 4]

If you are asking these kinds of question, I think that you need to talk to a professional yourself and find out what is really happening in this situation.

Trying to figure out how two people will be, based on two other people's relationship isn't a way to go about it. This isn't a find the right shape and plug it in until it fits type of situation. I think that's why it comes off as repulsive to other people when you keep trying to get answers that no one here can really answer for you.

It is a fact that you really have no diagnosis of this condition. You are at the very beginning of your relationship with this person and already you have this extraordinarily complex situation. You are trying to solve it by communicating what I would consider personal things on a public website. I would never talk about my spouse or fiance on a website in this manner. Our personal lives are confidential, and I think most people feel that it is appropriate to handle such things with delicacy and discretion.

Mental health professionals have a code of ethics which prohibits them from discussing the issues of their patients. Although you are not a mental health professional, I think that somehow this feels like some kind of violation.

The fact that you aren't having fun with this person, doesn't necessarily reflect that something is wrong with that other person - it is the dynamic between the two of you.

Yes, your words explain a certain amount of the "attacks" I have felt here. I see myself as just a confused man trying to make sense of a potentially explosive -- or potentially delightful -- situation. I'm different because I'm discussing sensitive personal topics, like sex, personality disorders, etc., as anonymously as I can, in a public forum. Also, it's clear many people distrust my perception of the situation; we've all been around armchair psychologists who like to throw around diagnoses, as if they had special expertise, so I must be one of those.

You are correct that there is no official, qualified diagnosis yet. Nearly everything from day 1 does fit the DSM criteria and the patterns discussed in other literature. And, since I have been using BPD-friendly communication skills with her, mainly from the SWOE book, things actually have been rather FUN with her, an increasingly large amount of the time. That's why I'm again giving serious consideration to marrying her. But I'm also worried that I could be split by her and turn back into the devil with horns at a moment's notice.

I am about a week behind on messages from the Oz mailing lists on BPD relationships. Honestly, I would much rather discuss the BPD aspects there. I visited VJ primarily to post an update about what I have learned and how things have gone. The last few days on VJ, people with personal experience with BPD have started posting in ways with more information than "run, Forrest, run", so that's been helpful overall. It seems to me that people with BPD get dismissed and stigmatized easily and rapidly by society, and not all people with BPD are cut from the same cloth.

[HannahP 119]

Is it always going to be this hard dealing with a person with BPD? That's what I worry about, is that it would just be exhausting all the time, and wear me down, and take the fun out of life. You're being both very helpful and a bit difficult at the same time. I really just want life to be FUN most of the time. Is it possible for a person with BPD to be in a place where life is FUN a lot of the time? Or can I expect to have most of the fun sucked out of my life by this (likely) BPD woman, and I'd just have to feel lucky for whatever fun I get?

I've been married for four years. Living with my husband for seven years. Together (exclusively) for over ten years now.

So I guess you'd probably want to ask my husband these questions.

[Phil N 4]

I've been married for four years. Living with my husband for seven years. Together (exclusively) for over ten years now.

So I guess you'd probably want to ask my husband these questions.

Maybe you could have him PM me? I'd love to hear his point of view. My bet is he would say, whatever else, it's never been boring.

I checked your other threads, but it was hard to find the BPD-related things without going through everything else, about work opportunities, best jobs, and such.

If you can PM me or post links to them, I would much appreciate it.

[nane1104 146]

I'm learning. If you have a brother with BPD, then you have more experience with the related behaviors than me. What is it you find sickening about my way of dealing with it? Do you think I should just write her off and close the book? I've been attacked here from both sides, attacked by people who think I'm an idiot for not bailing immediately on a (likely) BPD, and then attacked on the other side, by BPD/family members who think I'm being insensitive, ignorant, sickening, etc. They do say that no good deed goes unpunished.

By the way, I haven't made up my mind yet either. So even I have no idea how all this will end.

I am particularly interested in the comments from people who either have BPD or have a close family member or spouse with it. That would be you. So, would you advise any woman who was thinking about marrying your brother to run, run in the other direction as fast as possible? Or is there some type of woman for whom he would be an excellent partner? How do you see BPD affecting a marriage with him? How would you see BPD affecting a marriage between me and this woman? Should I run for the hills NOW, and why? Or might I end up with a fantastic partner and relationship? I am truly interested in your thoughts here.

We don't disagree about relationships, but you dislike the word "fix", and you are probably right about poor word choice. The point of a relationship is to be happier IN the relationship than you would be without it.

Oh yes, we do disagree, you just didn't understand what I was trying to say.

As every person with BPD shows different behavior, it doesn't matter how my brother is dealing with it, how we as his family are coping with it and in what kind of a relationship he is in, who would "match" him, but for your interest, he has been in a long term relationship for about 8 years now and has a son he is raising with his girlfriend.

What I find sickening about how you deal with this issue is, that you self diagnosed your fiancee, refuse to look at the situation in any other way than from your BPD point and talk about your fiancee like she is some kind of animal in a lab for all kinds of experiments.

I don't think you should just close the book on her, but if you care for her as much as you claim, I'd take a step back from your diagnosis, have her go to a doctor if that's what she wishes and then go from there.

By keeping on with your "therapy", not only can you cause great damage, you also keep yourself and her from finding out what the real problem in your relationship is.

[Phil N 4]

As every person with BPD shows different behavior, it doesn't matter how my brother is dealing with it, how we as his family are coping with it and in what kind of a relationship he is in, who would "match" him, but for your interest, he has been in a long term relationship for about 8 years now and has a son he is raising with his girlfriend.

What I find sickening about how you deal with this issue is, that you self diagnosed your fiancee, refuse to look at the situation in any other way than from your BPD point and talk about your fiancee like she is some kind of animal in a lab for all kinds of experiments.

I don't think you should just close the book on her, but if you care for her as much as you claim, I'd take a step back from your diagnosis, have her go to a doctor if that's what she wishes and then go from there.

By keeping on with your "therapy", not only can you cause great damage, you also keep yourself and her from finding out what the real problem in your relationship is.

Numerous people on VJ have posted advice to me that ALL people with BPD should be avoided at all costs, as far as a committed long-term relationship goes.

So, simply knowing there are counterexamples is helpful. Not all BPD marriages end in high-conflict divorce. But, apparently, a disproportionately high rate of them do, according to other sources.

Can you feel what it's like to be in my position? Do you think this is easy for me? Or can you only side with your sister woman? There are plenty of gender feminists out there, who believe the man is always wrong, just for being a man, and maybe that's you. Believe me, I looked at the situation EVERY other way for a long time. Go back and look at the early parts of this thread. I looked at cultural differences, etc., as an explanation. The Russian and Ukrainian women were the ones who told me this was ABSOLUTELY not a cultural issue. People on VJ suggested bipolar. I looked at Bipolar. No fit. That led to BPD. Total fit. I'm doing my best to get a qualified professional opinion. I won't marry her without knowing. My bottom line is for her to complete an assessment. Controlling, manipulative, yeah, I guess so, if people want to call me that. Go try losing nearly everything in a high-conflict divorce.

[TBoneTX 43,253]

it is the dynamic between the two of you which is wrong.

I said this 9 or 10 pages ago, sigh man...

[Dan and Judy 614]

With everything I have learned, I am now almost certain that my "wicked stepmother" is also a BPD.

Perhaps this is a clue - you are still considering the possibility of marrying your 'wicked step-mother' and reliving your horrid childhood all over again. Sounds like a dream come true.

Marrying the wicked step-mother to try to get the love she never gave him and at the same punish himself for not deserving the love.

I think this woman can fulfill his needs.

She can need him, and love him, and punish him all at the same time.

Step daughter is a bonus, he can treat her the way he should have been treated, Mom/ Evil stepmom will try to prevent it but he will succeed because now he is an adult and in control

He will use logic and reason to maintain control. He c a n m a k e t h i s w o r k

I would be curious how much physical resemblance there is between stepmom and soon to be wife

I think they are going to be happy in their own special way

It is only fitting though that step mom should come to the wedding. Kind of like passing the torch.

[Golden Gate 530]

I said this 9 or 10 pages ago, sigh man...

Yep. Sure did.

[nane1104 146]

Numerous people on VJ have posted advice to me that ALL people with BPD should be avoided at all costs, as far as a committed long-term relationship goes.

So, simply knowing there are counterexamples is helpful. Not all BPD marriages end in high-conflict divorce. But, apparently, a disproportionately high rate of them do, according to other sources.

Can you feel what it's like to be in my position? Do you think this is easy for me? Or can you only side with your sister woman? There are plenty of gender feminists out there, who believe the man is always wrong, just for being a man, and maybe that's you. Believe me, I looked at the situation EVERY other way for a long time. Go back and look at the early parts of this thread. I looked at cultural differences, etc., as an explanation. The Russian and Ukrainian women were the ones who told me this was ABSOLUTELY not a cultural issue. People on VJ suggested bipolar. I looked at Bipolar. No fit. That led to BPD. Total fit. I'm doing my best to get a qualified professional opinion. I won't marry her without knowing. My bottom line is for her to complete an assessment. Controlling, manipulative, yeah, I guess so, if people want to call me that. Go try losing nearly everything in a high-conflict divorce.

No, I am not one of these "feminists".

From what I read, you looked at your fiancee as the problem from all sides, cultural differences, bi-polar, BPD, when will you start looking at yourself as at least part of the problem.

I agree with TBoneTX and Golden Gate and I will add...I think both of you had their own agenda and reasons for being together but surely none that a real relationship should be based on.

[Niels Bohr 72]

So cute!

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Jaysus.

Why don't YOU go for an "assessment".

[Phil N 4]

No, I am not one of these "feminists".

From what I read, you looked at your fiancee as the problem from all sides, cultural differences, bi-polar, BPD, when will you start looking at yourself as at least part of the problem.

I agree with TBoneTX and Golden Gate and I will add...I think both of you had their own agenda and reasons for being together but surely none that a real relationship should be based on.

I've known I'm part of the problem from day 1. I've laid out a lot of my "stuff" in this thread. I've never claimed innocence, purity, etc.

There's so much in this thread that it's easy to miss or forget things. Perhaps consider that making the effort to learn and use BPD-friendly communication skills is my personal acknowledgement that I have a lot of responsibility to be part of the solution. Whether she is "officially" BPD or not, at minimum, she has many BPD-like behaviors that are a new experience for me.

[Stuart and Thea 95]

Phil, all the people in this thread that are suggesting you leave are doing so not because your fiance has BPD, in fact, until she is diagnosed, we shouldn't say she does, it's completely unfair to her. Especially considering the recent events and stress she's under, we'll all just agree that she has some personality flaws. Such as hitting you, manipulating you, swearing at you, threatening to claim under VAWA....

Those are the reasons for you to NOT be in a relationship with her...

Not to mention your issues with trying to fix her... if you can't love her the way she is, why do you think you could love her if she changed? (Even by accepting the "fact" as you put it of her BPD, or even humouring it as a possibility?) Okay, so maybe you can change and then make it work, again, if it's not working unless one of you changes, then it's not working.

Humour me for a minute here, what if you find a psychiatrist willing to see your fiance to see if she meets the diagnosis of BPD, or any other personality disorder for that matter, as, in posting the diagnostic criteria, it doesn't seem to appear that she meets enough to be diagnosed with this disease. What if the psychiatrist finds that she does not have BPD, but has PTSD instead, which given your backstory of her ex with the suicide, I now find far more likely than BPD. Will you then abandon trying to fix her, knowing that there is nothing "wrong" with her, and that she just has trust issues and anxiety?

If you feel like you can love her and be with her if she gets this BPD diagnosis, but what if she doesn't? What if she has no medical reason for treating you like ####### when she first came? What if it was just a gut reaction on her part to a man that made her feel uncomfortable and objectified? What if she felt the situation gettting out of her control and she was trying to assume some control for her own sanity? Asking for sex as if it was a given, then putting in a porn movie to watch when it was rejected would make me very uncomfortable. I would likely try to assume some kind of control, just so I could feel like I wasn't losing any.

Feeling out of control, or unable to control a situation that feels bad is a very scary thing for people who have been in bad past relationships like hers. I know I can't stand feeling out of control, and it's the one thing that can turn me into a royal ###### while I take back control. I don't have BPD, but I do identify with your fiance. I think you should look up how abusive relationships can affect the survivor. She may not have been beaten, but living with an addict beats you down just the same. Outliving the addict leaves you both relieved and guilty that you couldn't help them, but happy they're dead just the same. Anything that feels like you're letting your future go into someone else's hands, when you don't trust the person, can make you turn into a control freak. I'd just walk, she chose to turn into a disaster for you. Look up PTSD in abused spouses, it may be far more helpful than this armchair session you're conducting with strangers.

I still think that your relationship is doomed to fail. She doesn't trust you, and you don't trust her. Regardless of any diagnosis, there will always be that.

[Phil N 4]

Marrying the wicked step-mother to try to get the love she never gave him and at the same punish himself for not deserving the love.

I think this woman can fulfill his needs.

She can need him, and love him, and punish him all at the same time.

Step daughter is a bonus, he can treat her the way he should have been treated, Mom/ Evil stepmom will try to prevent it but he will succeed because now he is an adult and in control

He will use logic and reason to maintain control. He c a n m a k e t h i s w o r k

I would be curious how much physical resemblance there is between stepmom and soon to be wife

I think they are going to be happy in their own special way

It is only fitting though that step mom should come to the wedding. Kind of like passing the torch.

I know this is parody, but the scary thing is it almost sounds plausible and reasonable, LOL!!

FYI, Stepmom is 4'9", maybe even 4'6" by now. Fiancee is 6'0". But they do both have black hair, and both smoke, so your theory appears to be spot-on for that as well. ;-)

Using logic and reason to maintain control, well, sorry, that's where your theory goes to heck in a handbasket. As if. To quote a speaker I once heard, "I used to think we humans are 80% logical and 20% emotional. Now I know the truth is that we are ALL 100% emotional. When someone says they are being logical, that simply means they have more emotion attached to attempting a logical analysis than to any other course of action."

Thank you for the analysis though. It's actually much better thought out and more plausible than many serious suggestions people have made.

[TracyTN 237]

You know, you're right. I think I'll marry her tomorrow. Two good days in a row is enough. She's shown me all I need to see. Thankfully, I already have the marriage license, so that will make it even easier to pull off the surprise tomorrow.

And I thought "I" was stark raving mad, for not having given her the boot already.

A wedding tomorrow, now THAT would truly be insanity... ;-)

If nothing else, I hope my story, my "journey" has been entertaining and better drama than most of the schlock on TV or at the theaters...

And the ending is still to be written.

Seriously? After all that has happened, and the behaviors she's exhibited (not to mention your problems with said behaviors), you've had two good days and now think marriage is a good idea? I guess you can't save people from themselves sometimes. Or the impending train barreling their way.