Is it ethical to purchase an EV lithium battery powered vehicle?

[Dashinka 23,375]

Interesting analysis that many would prefer to ignore.

 

Is it ethical to purchase an EV lithium battery powered vehicle?

 

 

With numerous State Governor’s having issued executive orders to phase out the purchasing of gasoline driven cars within the next decade or so, and the automobile manufacturers efforts to phase into only manufacturing EV’s here’s some food for thought about the lack of transparency about “Clean Energy Exploitations”.

 

The top image is an oil well, where 100 percent organic material is pumped out of the ground, taking up around 500 to 1000 square feet. Then it flows in pipelines safely transporting the oil to refineries to be manufactured into usable oil derivatives that are the basis of more than 6,000 products for society, and in to transportation fuels needed by the world’s heavy-weight and long-range infrastructures of aviation, merchant ships, cruise ships, and militaries.

 

The lower image is just one lithium supply mine where entire mountains are eliminated. Each mine usually consists of thirty-five to forty humongous 797 Caterpillar haul trucks along with hundreds of other large equipment. Each 797 uses around half a million gallons of diesel a year. So, with an inventory of just thirty-five the haul trucks alone are using 17.5 million gallons of fuel a year for just one lithium site.

 

https://www.citizensjournal.us/is-it-ethical-to-purchase-an-ev-lithium-battery-powered-vehicle/

[Lil bear 3,842]

1 hour ago, Dashinka said:

Interesting analysis that many would prefer to ignore.

 

Is it ethical to purchase an EV lithium battery powered vehicle?

 

 

With numerous State Governor’s having issued executive orders to phase out the purchasing of gasoline driven cars within the next decade or so, and the automobile manufacturers efforts to phase into only manufacturing EV’s here’s some food for thought about the lack of transparency about “Clean Energy Exploitations”.

 

The top image is an oil well, where 100 percent organic material is pumped out of the ground, taking up around 500 to 1000 square feet. Then it flows in pipelines safely transporting the oil to refineries to be manufactured into usable oil derivatives that are the basis of more than 6,000 products for society, and in to transportation fuels needed by the world’s heavy-weight and long-range infrastructures of aviation, merchant ships, cruise ships, and militaries.

 

The lower image is just one lithium supply mine where entire mountains are eliminated. Each mine usually consists of thirty-five to forty humongous 797 Caterpillar haul trucks along with hundreds of other large equipment. Each 797 uses around half a million gallons of diesel a year. So, with an inventory of just thirty-five the haul trucks alone are using 17.5 million gallons of fuel a year for just one lithium site.

 

https://www.citizensjournal.us/is-it-ethical-to-purchase-an-ev-lithium-battery-powered-vehicle/

Glad you posted it. Like most current topics, the complexity of the situation is ignored and simplistic answers preferred. At this time, there is also no way to recycle lithium batteries .. another ignored issue .. We are not intending to buy an EV at this time for these reasons … rather we continue to pursue our lifestyle of reduce, reuse, recycle.. and to live simply so others can simply live 

[Mike E 11,727]

Mountains just block the view.  So as an EV owner I’m good with removing whole mountains.  

[Lil bear 3,842]

Mountains offer a view that those who stay on the plains will never see 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,330]

3 hours ago, Lil bear said:

Glad you posted it. Like most current topics, the complexity of the situation is ignored and simplistic answers preferred. At this time, there is also no way to recycle lithium batteries .. another ignored issue .. We are not intending to buy an EV at this time for these reasons … rather we continue to pursue our lifestyle of reduce, reuse, recycle.. and to live simply so others can simply live 

 Li-ion batteries can be recycled, although it is a bit more complicated and requires automation. I am not sure why the rabid anti EV crowd keeps propagating that mis information. 

 

Yes mining those rare earth minerals is messy, but you know there are a bunch of other metals in those car that are also mined. 

 

Here is an aluminum mine

 

 

 

 

New Tesla Battery Recycling Process Reportedly Produces No Waste

 

https://insideevs.com/news/525965/tesla-battery-recycling-no-waste/

 

 

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,330]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

Mountains just block the view.  So as an EV owner I’m good with removing whole mountains.  

i mean pretty much every other metal in an automobile is striped mine. I wont even get started on what plastic is made from 

[Dashinka 23,375]

1 minute ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

 Li-ion batteries can be recycled, although it is a bit more complicated and requires automation. I am not sure why the rabid anti EV crowd keeps propagating that mis information. 

 

Yes mining those rare earth minerals is messy, but you know there are a bunch of other metals in those car that are also mined. 

 

Here is an aluminum mine

 

 

 

 

New Tesla Battery Recycling Process Reportedly Produces No Waste

 

https://insideevs.com/news/525965/tesla-battery-recycling-no-waste/

 

 

They can be recycled, but it comes down to a cost benefit analysis of the cost of recycling vs the cost of mining new.  Right now new mining is winning.

[Dashinka 23,375]

2 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

i mean pretty much every other metal in an automobile is striped mine. I wont even get started on what plastic is made from 

Never heard of a striped mine, but yes, all manufacturing of any good means digging some dirt.  The one big advantage of current vehicles is the maturity of the materials/processes.  It is very easy to recycle and separate iron based metals, and almost all steels used today contain a great deal of scrap recycle.  EVs will get there eventually, but it will take time.  Also, EVs will not completely eliminate the need for oil as much of the best engineering plastics are produced from oil.

[Mike E 11,727]

2 hours ago, Lil bear said:

Mountains offer a view that those who stay on the plains will never see 

Nah. Mountains just ruin sunsets and shorten the days.  Mow ‘em down. Clears more land for agriculture and shopping malls too. We need more Costcos. 
 

People first.  

[Neonred 3,461]

47 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Nah. Mountains just ruin sunsets and shorten the days.  Mow ‘em down. Clears more land for agriculture and shopping malls too. We need more Costcos. 
 

People first.  

You could move on down to Florida.  We don't have mountains here.  Already have plenty of agriculture and shopping malls too!

[Mike E 11,727]

1 hour ago, Neonred said:

You could move on down to Florida.  We don't have mountains here.  Already have plenty of agriculture and shopping malls too!

I could.  But as much as I love Florida I prefer less mold. 
 

The last reason why I have an EV is to same the environment.  I’ve an EV because it is a better vehicle just like a cat with an internal combustion engine is better than a car with a steam engine which is better than a horse drawn carriage.  
 

Wanna save the environment? Make fewer babies. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Mike E

[TBoneTX 43,422]

6 hours ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I wont even get started on what plastic is made from

Hot dogs are even worse, it's said.

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

cat with an internal combustion engine

Evolution?

[Dashinka 23,375]

10 hours ago, Mike E said:

I could.  But as much as I love Florida I prefer less mold. 
 

The last reason why I have an EV is to same the environment.  I’ve an EV because it is a better vehicle just like a cat with an internal combustion engine is better than a car with a steam engine which is better than a horse drawn carriage.  
 

Wanna save the environment? Make fewer babies. 

The Western world is doing a pretty good job of making fewer babies.  As to an EV being better than an ICE, that is really dependent on the situation.  I often here the strawman comparison to the horse and buggy, but in the case of an ICE vehicle compared to a horse and buggy, there was an order of magnitude difference in the way people could get around with an ICE even of those times as compared to a horse.  Comparing ICE to EV, there is less differentiation between the two.  EV's have quicker acceleration, but of course taking advantage of that drains the battery faster, EV's have to generate their own heat whereas ICE can use the engine waste heat in colder environment.  EV's have much longer charging/refill times on longer trips, and sure, that type of trip is rarer than quick drives, but I can tell you from experience, there are a lot of folks on the road all the time driving way more than 200 miles in a single trip.

 

EV's have a place, but I still don't see them as being a 100% end all for everyone, but of course we have politicians that have no technical knowledge that somehow seem to think EV's will completely replace ICE vehicles.

[Mike E 11,727]

I like waking up to vehicle that is is fully fueled because it was charging all night.  
 

Even assuming all that excess heat can be used to heat the cabin, ICE vehicles produce waste heat all year around  meaning they are less efficient except in central Alaska. Generally most of that excess heat from combustion and braking is wasted. 
 

Most stops at a fast charger for me are programmed to be 15 minutes.  I usually end up taking more because of the amount It time it takes to walk to / use the nearest toilet.  Higher range EVs are coming for those that need / want them. 
 

We are in the process of relocating and left the EV at in California for now and drove the ICE to Arizona.  Normally my wife drives iy but I’ve been driving it.  Things I realize I don’t miss  about  ICE driving;

 

* paying for energy that costs 3 to 10 times more per mile.  The wide gap because California charges ridiculous rates for electricity and yet those rates, even  when California still had $3 per gallon gas, were still lower per mile for an EV. Where we will be living in Arizona electricity  is a third of the cost (and yet still triple what NJ charges) and gas is $2 a gallon cheaper.  And yes of course the market is whacked when electricity prices are not as volatile as gasoline prices.  
 

* driving up to a pump to pay at the pump and find the payment system is broken. 
 

* driving up to a pump, pre pay or pre authorize and find that the pump doesn’t work.  
 

* I need, like a hole in the head, standing outside in 110 degree heat to pump my gas. In my ICE I wound just sitting in the car during an extended charge Ina road trip or not at all if I am charging at home.  
 

* Alas Arizona has its share of crazy people who approach motorists at filling stations like they do in California.  Just doesn’t happen at a Tesla super charger.  Btw why do the crazies always ask for change? Like anyone still has coins and bills after the government manufactured coin and bank note shortage. Why don’t these people have Venmo?

 

* paying for brake jobs.  Haven’t paid for one yet on our ICE but the brakes were squealing a few weeks ago.  And this reminded me of the $1500 fuel pump repair I had a several   years ago.  And that it took 4 years for the gas fume smell in the cabin to subside because we hardly drove the ICE.  Having the ICE sit outside for a month while the California house was sitting vacant seems to have done the trick.  

[Dashinka 23,375]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

I like waking up to vehicle that is is fully fueled because it was charging all night.  

 

I agree, and currently most EVs are owned by people with single family homes with that ability.  As EVs become more widespread, it will be interesting to see how apartment dwellers handle it, and how much apartment owners will charge for electricity if they provide chargers. 
 

Even assuming all that excess heat can be used to heat the cabin, ICE vehicles produce waste heat all year around  meaning they are less efficient except in central Alaska. Generally most of that excess heat from combustion and braking is wasted. 

 

Yes, overall, and EV is more efficient than an ICE vehicle at the vehicle level, but there are inefficiencies between the power source, and through the distribution network.  Also, ambient temperature extremes tend to affect EVs more than ICE especially with respect to range.
 

Most stops at a fast charger for me are programmed to be 15 minutes.  I usually end up taking more because of the amount It time it takes to walk to / use the nearest toilet.  Higher range EVs are coming for those that need / want them.

 

The impact to fast charging stations will be something to watch as more EVs hit the road.  Being an early adopter, I expect you have never had to wait to charge at a DC fast charging station.  This of course may change.  As to higher range, the issue is still 30-40 minutes to get from 60% to 80% state of charge.  Of course this is very dependent on the actual charger and currently DC fast chargers are not standardized, so there is a range of kW stations out there. 
 

We are in the process of relocating and left the EV at in California for now and drove the ICE to Arizona.  Normally my wife drives iy but I’ve been driving it.  Things I realize I don’t miss  about  ICE driving;

 

* paying for energy that costs 3 to 10 times more per mile.  The wide gap because California charges ridiculous rates for electricity and yet those rates, even  when California still had $3 per gallon gas, were still lower per mile for an EV. Where we will be living in Arizona electricity  is a third of the cost (and yet still triple what NJ charges) and gas is $2 a gallon cheaper.  And yes of course the market is whacked when electricity prices are not as volatile as gasoline prices.

 

Looking for a new car for the wife that currently drives a very nice vehicle.  Her driving is conducive to an EV (we always take my car when we do our 4-5 long road trips each year), but looking at a comparable EV to what she is driving now did not make sense from a cost analysis standpoint.  We would mostly charge at home, and there would be savings from that, but the payback from the fuel vs electrical savings and the savings of routine maintenance (we usually only keep the car for 3-4 years and put less than 35k miles on it, so just oil changes) would be around 13 years even with +$4 fuel.  Also, as more EVs are put in service, the price of fuel will come down somewhat based on the less demand.  

 

It will be interesting to see how single vehicle owners will deal with things like long trips, wait lines at chargers, etc. when they do not have an ICE fall-back.
 

* driving up to a pump to pay at the pump and find the payment system is broken.

 

I think you are probably in a Tesla with free charging, heard a lot of stories of DC fast chargers that were not working or someone could not get a payment system to work, so this will be a wash.
 

* driving up to a pump, pre pay or pre authorize and find that the pump doesn’t work.

 

A lot of stories of vandalized chargers with missing cables, so I call this one a wash as well.
 

* I need, like a hole in the head, standing outside in 110 degree heat to pump my gas. In my ICE I wound just sitting in the car during an extended charge Ina road trip or not at all if I am charging at home.

 

Never get back into the vehicle while pumping fuel.  To much chance of picking up a static charge that could discharge on the fill nozzle.  That being said, 3-5 minutes in 110 heat is not too bad.  Doing it at -30 C is a little tougher. 
 

* Alas Arizona has its share of crazy people who approach motorists at filling stations like they do in California.  Just doesn’t happen at a Tesla super charger.  Btw why do the crazies always ask for change? Like anyone still has coins and bills after the government manufactured coin and bank note shortage. Why don’t these people have Venmo?

Yeah, another wash, but honestly I have never encountered this where I live.  Our panhandlers generally occupy street corners then get in their SUVs to go home after a few hours.

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

 

* paying for brake jobs.  Haven’t paid for one yet on our ICE but the brakes were squealing a few weeks ago.  And this reminded me of the $1500 fuel pump repair I had a several   years ago.  And that it took 4 years for the gas fume smell in the cabin to subside because we hardly drove the ICE.  Having the ICE sit outside for a month while the California house was sitting vacant seems to have done the trick.  

I always wondered why auto companies put a pass through cover over the fuel pump inside the fuel tank.  I for one would not want a technician pulling out a failed pump into the passenger compartment spilling fuel on the carpet/upholstery.  

 

As I have said many times, I am not anti-EV, and I believe there is a market for them, and they are very exciting to drive.  Contrary to the belief of some though, they are not emission free (saw a Tesla driver here in MI with a "ZeroEM" plate and laughed).  One thing California does is regulate heavy hydrocarbons that come off a vehicle, well currently they ignore these emissions for EVs, but they are still there off-gassing from the tires, carpeting, upholstery, adhesives, etc.  I am also against any government subsidies for EVs, let them stand on their own and people will buy them.  And I am against the movement to 100% EVs particularly by the government bodies, EVs will find their place as they move from early adopters to the more mainstream customers.

 

I cannot remember if I posted this, but it is an interesting tale of a road-trip in an EV with a time limit imposed.

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/electric-car-four-day-trip-more-time-charging-sleeping