Baltimore mayor vetoes $15 minimum wage bill

[Dakine10 5,452]

2 hours ago, OriZ said:

lol, someone making $15 an hour for flipping burgers will have no incentive to ever improve or do anything else. Why bother? They're getting paid plenty to do a job that doesn't take much. Well I guess that's one way to lower tuition costs though

   We'll get to see this over the next 4 years in Colorado as voters were in favor of a minimum wage hike to $12 an hour.  Right now, $12 an hour probably would barely cover rent in the Denver area. By 2020 it won't. I don't see any way in hell that not being able to afford anything except living accommodations would be an incentive to stay in a $12 an hour job. 

    

[yuna628 9,995]

12 hours ago, ccneat said:

I love food, people getting excited about restaraunt chains makes me sad.

Overall if I could go to a local place with good food, I'd do that rather than a chain, and we do pretty often. But if he's looking for a steak dinner that's not terribly expensive vs a steak dinner at the famous place on main street for about $45 per plate... well we can only afford so much.

4 hours ago, OriZ said:

lol, someone making $15 an hour for flipping burgers will have no incentive to ever improve or do anything else. Why bother? They're getting paid plenty to do a job that doesn't take much. Well I guess that's one way to lower tuition costs though

That begs the question though, does anyone have any incentive to improve or do anything else in any job regardless of pay? What is there to improve upon in a burger flipping job exactly no matter what the pay? I still believe that if a person is treated well in their job, and they are paid more - the business is more likely to see better customer service.

3 hours ago, OriZ said:

I have had at least two close members of the family work in those places, one actually worked at BK for years and made his way up to a manager. I know what goes on there. It's not a difficult job, sorry.

..And no it's not a difficult job of course. Take our local Chick-Fil-A, Five Guys, or Sonic. I don't really know if the people there get paid more than the BK or McD's, but they do seem to be treated better, and they do seem to be genuinely helpful and friendly. I don't think any of the kids that work there (and many of those kids are actually married not always fitting into the bored teenager trying to earn quick $s on the side trope) think to themselves that there is anything to improve, they just do their job and get them done well. I'd really like it if they could be paid well, because they deserve it. And yes, it can be stressful for those kids during rush times... the lines often goes out the door and into the parking lot for inside, and the drive-thru line can back up well into the street.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

20 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Overall if I could go to a local place with good food, I'd do that rather than a chain, and we do pretty often. But if he's looking for a steak dinner that's not terribly expensive vs a steak dinner at the famous place on main street for about $45 per plate... well we can only afford so much.

 

Yes cost is an issue..

That begs the question though, does anyone have any incentive to improve or do anything else in any job regardless of pay? What is there to improve upon in a burger flipping job exactly no matter what the pay? I still believe that if a person is treated well in their job, and they are paid more - the business is more likely to see better customer service.
 

And I am more likely to shop or use that companies services.  

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by ccneat

[OriZ 3,165]

6 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

   We'll get to see this over the next 4 years in Colorado as voters were in favor of a minimum wage hike to $12 an hour.  Right now, $12 an hour probably would barely cover rent in the Denver area. By 2020 it won't. I don't see any way in hell that not being able to afford anything except living accommodations would be an incentive to stay in a $12 an hour job. 

    

You quote me talking about $15 an hour, and then post a reply about $12 an hour in a real expensive area? Makes sense to me.

 

Regarding the rest of it I'll quote Albert Einstein: 'Problems cannot be solved with the same mindset that created them'.

 

5 hours ago, yuna628 said:

Overall if I could go to a local place with good food, I'd do that rather than a chain, and we do pretty often. But if he's looking for a steak dinner that's not terribly expensive vs a steak dinner at the famous place on main street for about $45 per plate... well we can only afford so much.

That begs the question though, does anyone have any incentive to improve or do anything else in any job regardless of pay? What is there to improve upon in a burger flipping job exactly no matter what the pay? I still believe that if a person is treated well in their job, and they are paid more - the business is more likely to see better customer service.

..And no it's not a difficult job of course. Take our local Chick-Fil-A, Five Guys, or Sonic. I don't really know if the people there get paid more than the BK or McD's, but they do seem to be treated better, and they do seem to be genuinely helpful and friendly. I don't think any of the kids that work there (and many of those kids are actually married not always fitting into the bored teenager trying to earn quick $s on the side trope) think to themselves that there is anything to improve, they just do their job and get them done well. I'd really like it if they could be paid well, because they deserve it. And yes, it can be stressful for those kids during rush times... the lines often goes out the door and into the parking lot for inside, and the drive-thru line can back up well into the street.

What there is to improve is to work your way up within the company, become a branch manager, go further than that. There is also room for improvement in other areas and using it as a stepping stone on the way to a different/better/higher paying job, which is how most treat the fast food industry today, it's not meant as a career for most people. But if people make a "livable wage" in such an easy job, some, I'm not saying all as I'm sure some will still strive for more, but for some this will be enough and they will have no reason or motivation to try and advance whether within the company or elsewhere. Which is why I also said half jokingly it would be one way to lower tuition.

 

I also believe if a person is treated fairly they will be much more productive. I have always believed people should be treated nicely, not shouted at, not stressed out, I believe people should be allowed to use their phones when they need to, go to the bathroom when they need to, have longer lunch breaks, be allowed to use the internet if they need/want to all as long as they still get their job done in a timely manner. The 5 guys here is actually known for hiring ex felons, to give them another chance since most places don't. Even the manager himself is one after having worked his way up, and now most of his employees are as well. I have no issue with that. So this is not about not wanting people to get paid or treated fairly, but I don't think forcing a $15 an hour wage down everyone's throats is the answer, people need to earn that not just be handed it. It won't do them any favors nor the rest of us.

 

8 hours ago, ccneat said:

Okay so now we have a different argument:

Flipping burgers is easy and does not take much. By giving me a living wage you have taken away any incentive I have left to take on harder jobs. This is a variation on tht argument that people are poor because they are lazy or they choose to be poor.

 

Here is the thing: Folks making 40 an hour Are not working 4x times as hard 4x as long.nor do they have 1/4 the conditions , 1/4 the opportunity to improve themselves.   So why the difference in wage? Skill,  training and opportunity.

 

I have seen folks working for minimum wage. These are hard jobs, dirty jobs, sometimes hard on your body or phsyce, They clean fish, change our grandparents diapers, teach  our disabled children mop our floors. And that is not counting the excluded groups picking  our crops and waiting tables.

 

So pointing out that some people may like this work or less responsibility does not  make the moral or economic case for paying them less. We should be happy those folks do our dirty work.

Nobody is pitting anyone against anyone. The only one making the arguments you keep bringing up is you, not anybody else here. Nobody said the poor are lazy or that they choose to be poor. Yet another deflection instead of addressing the issue that we keep bringing up, I have seen no solution from anybody here in 8 pages of thread so far, and that is the fact if you raise minimum wage, the price of many things goes up accordingly, so in reality how are you helping these people? And worse, you're hurting other groups, like not only the non working poor but also those barely scraping by that might not be considered poor because they make a little more than min wage, but now they'll be able to afford less because you're only taking care of one group of people and not looking at the big picture. There are other groups of people and they are all important, they all matter equally. 

 

Like I said before, I want at least as much as the next person to see everybody earning a decent wage and making a decent living, and no amount of vilifying is going to change that. Just yesterday in a different thread I wrote I don't think anybody should be homeless. Nobody. I never forget where I came from and even moreso I never forget where my wife came from because admittedly she's had it much worse than me. All the people you mention, yes they do very important work. I'd be the last to look down on anybody because of how much money they have or where they work. I've done hard work myself, besides the military which is hard work with hardly no pay, I also worked in a catering company where it was basically a whole day for one event, you show up hours before, unload and put together everything, get everything ready with food, then you do the waiting, then take everything apart and load everything back. And of course 100 degree weather was no excuse to slack. I also worked in a company in Israel where I assembled and calibrated thermal imaging cameras. We worked 5 days a week but oftentimes we would work an extra 6th day, and at least 3 out of the 5, and sometimes all 5, were from 7am till 10pm. The days that were not were till 5pm. For that job I was basically paid the equivalent of just under $10 an hour(and keep in mind the COL there is generally higher than most places in the US to start with), so excuse me if I'm not particularly sympathetic to the plight of mostly young people with their whole life ahead of them working 40 hours a week in one of the simplest jobs there are, demanding $15 an hour. No, they're not worth quite that much. FTR I think there are other jobs, that pay alot more, that are also not as challenging as some jobs, it's not that I have anything against this one job in particular. I respect any job and any person working it, every person is useful and has their moments and their purpose in life(have you ever heard the song Moments by Emerson Drive? I make sure to have it in my playlist every day because I do know it is easy to get lost and forget that everybody is important and no one is expendable). However, knowing what I know about the fast food business you will never convince me there is much in it that's hard or difficult or challenging in any way shape or form, and the fact they still manage to screw so much up often makes me wonder how they even tie their own shoes. 

 

I'm not saying I would not want some people to get paid more, but what I'm saying is that's not the government's business. People tend to think that businesses are just evil and do what they can to rip their customers off while making money hand over fist. That could not be further from the truth. As a business owner, I can tell you most of them(I'm not talking about large corporations that are usually also monopolies thanks to the government, that have been around for a long time and have CEOs making millions, as those are the minority of businesses) work hard every day, have put alot into their business and their work, and one of the main rewards is and should be your independence. As it is taxes have become a 3 month long yearly fiasco, the least the government can do is stay out of other people's business(no pun) and allow them to make their own decisions, including how much to pay someone. Once the government starts meddling it usually does more harm than good. The government isn't the one that had to put all that time and effort into it. What's going to end up happening even in situations where they don't raise prices is some might choose to do nothing(few), but others will either cut the working force, because if they need to pay people more, they're going to pay less people, so you have more unemployed. For some, the burden might be too big and they will close their doors so what was this you said about taxpayer services? I think they will only increase. No matter how you flip it(pun intended), a $15 min wage just makes no sense. I have so far seen nothing that addresses the core issues with this. It doesn't solve the wage problem, it doesn't solve the price problem, talk about it is nothing but political hogwash. 

[Dakine10 5,452]

2 hours ago, OriZ said:

You quote me talking about $15 an hour, and then post a reply about $12 an hour in a real expensive area? Makes sense to me.

 

Regarding the rest of it I'll quote Albert Einstein: 'Problems cannot be solved with the same mindset that created them'.

 

  I don't know what the cost of living is in Baltimore, but the mayor did campaign on a $15 dollar an hour minimum wage. I doubt the mayor had an epiphany all of a sudden. My reply about $12 dollars an hour here is just to your contention that raising the minimum wage would eliminate the incentive for people to go further. Whether it's $12 or $15, it wouldn't. Not here.

[TBoneTX 49,701]

Two TOS-violating posts have been removed -- the first for "Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Forums," and the second for "Make comments in a Post either direct or implied toward another member that are purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, harass, insult, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users."

[TBoneTX 49,701]

[Mod hat off]

Largely overlooked during this discussion are two points, both regarding work ethic:

1.  Any job is a good job.

2.  "No matter how good a job I do, I can always do a better one."

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

7 hours ago, OriZ said:

You quote me talking about $15 an hour, and then post a reply about $12 an hour in a real expensive area? Makes sense to me.

 

Regarding the rest of it I'll quote Albert Einstein: 'Problems cannot be solved with the same mindset that created them'.

 

What there is to improve is to work your way up within the company, become a branch manager, go further than that. There is also room for improvement in other areas and using it as a stepping stone on the way to a different/better/higher paying job, which is how most treat the fast food industry today, it's not meant as a career for most people. But if people make a "livable wage" in such an easy job, some, I'm not saying all as I'm sure some will still strive for more, but for some this will be enough and they will have no reason or motivation to try and advance whether within the company or elsewhere. Which is why I also said half jokingly it would be one way to lower tuition.

 

I also believe if a person is treated fairly they will be much more productive. I have always believed people should be treated nicely, not shouted at, not stressed out, I believe people should be allowed to use their phones when they need to, go to the bathroom when they need to, have longer lunch breaks, be allowed to use the internet if they need/want to all as long as they still get their job done in a timely manner. The 5 guys here is actually known for hiring ex felons, to give them another chance since most places don't. Even the manager himself is one after having worked his way up, and now most of his employees are as well. I have no issue with that. So this is not about not wanting people to get paid or treated fairly, but I don't think forcing a $15 an hour wage down everyone's throats is the answer, people need to earn that not just be handed it. It won't do them any favors nor the rest of us.

 

Nobody is pitting anyone against anyone. The only one making the arguments you keep bringing up is you, not anybody else here. Nobody said the poor are lazy or that they choose to be poor. Yet another deflection instead of addressing the issue that we keep bringing up, I have seen no solution from anybody here in 8 pages of thread so far, and that is the fact if you raise minimum wage, the price of many things goes up accordingly, so in reality how are you helping these people? And worse, you're hurting other groups, like not only the non working poor but also those barely scraping by that might not be considered poor because they make a little more than min wage, but now they'll be able to afford less because you're only taking care of one group of people and not looking at the big picture. There are other groups of people and they are all important, they all matter equally. 

 

Like I said before, I want at least as much as the next person to see everybody earning a decent wage and making a decent living, and no amount of vilifying is going to change that. Just yesterday in a different thread I wrote I don't think anybody should be homeless. Nobody. I never forget where I came from and even moreso I never forget where my wife came from because admittedly she's had it much worse than me. All the people you mention, yes they do very important work. I'd be the last to look down on anybody because of how much money they have or where they work. I've done hard work myself, besides the military which is hard work with hardly no pay, I also worked in a catering company where it was basically a whole day for one event, you show up hours before, unload and put together everything, get everything ready with food, then you do the waiting, then take everything apart and load everything back. And of course 100 degree weather was no excuse to slack. I also worked in a company in Israel where I assembled and calibrated thermal imaging cameras. We worked 5 days a week but oftentimes we would work an extra 6th day, and at least 3 out of the 5, and sometimes all 5, were from 7am till 10pm. The days that were not were till 5pm. For that job I was basically paid the equivalent of just under $10 an hour(and keep in mind the COL there is generally higher than most places in the US to start with), so excuse me if I'm not particularly sympathetic to the plight of mostly young people with their whole life ahead of them working 40 hours a week in one of the simplest jobs there are, demanding $15 an hour. No, they're not worth quite that much. FTR I think there are other jobs, that pay alot more, that are also not as challenging as some jobs, it's not that I have anything against this one job in particular. I respect any job and any person working it, every person is useful and has their moments and their purpose in life(have you ever heard the song Moments by Emerson Drive? I make sure to have it in my playlist every day because I do know it is easy to get lost and forget that everybody is important and no one is expendable). However, knowing what I know about the fast food business you will never convince me there is much in it that's hard or difficult or challenging in any way shape or form, and the fact they still manage to screw so much up often makes me wonder how they even tie their own shoes. 

 

I'm not saying I would not want some people to get paid more, but what I'm saying is that's not the government's business. People tend to think that businesses are just evil and do what they can to rip their customers off while making money hand over fist. That could not be further from the truth. As a business owner, I can tell you most of them(I'm not talking about large corporations that are usually also monopolies thanks to the government, that have been around for a long time and have CEOs making millions, as those are the minority of businesses) work hard every day, have put alot into their business and their work, and one of the main rewards is and should be your independence. As it is taxes have become a 3 month long yearly fiasco, the least the government can do is stay out of other people's business(no pun) and allow them to make their own decisions, including how much to pay someone. Once the government starts meddling it usually does more harm than good. The government isn't the one that had to put all that time and effort into it. What's going to end up happening even in situations where they don't raise prices is some might choose to do nothing(few), but others will either cut the working force, because if they need to pay people more, they're going to pay less people, so you have more unemployed. For some, the burden might be too big and they will close their doors so what was this you said about taxpayer services? I think they will only increase. No matter how you flip it(pun intended), a $15 min wage just makes no sense. I have so far seen nothing that addresses the core issues with this. It doesn't solve the wage problem, it doesn't solve the price problem, talk about it is nothing but political hogwash. 

I don't know where to start, but let me try to be respectful of folks time.

 

I bring up intra-class struggle   because I see it, even on this site, and it's morally wrong. It doesn't make me less wrong that bring it up or more right that i repeat myself.

 

Creating a regulatory structure to protect those at the bottom is supported by the law. Maybe you are looking for some sort of libertarian utopia that does not exist. I never said business small or large were greedy or evil, those folks have to do their job to hold down costs.

 

We can discuss protecting mom and pop stores and still help large corporations do the best for society.  

[Dakine10 5,452]

56 minutes ago, ccneat said:

Maybe you are looking for some sort of libertarian utopia that does not exist.

   That's the problem all libertarians face. 

[Dashinka 26,709]

1 hour ago, Dakine10 said:

   That's the problem all libertarians face. 

I think this applies to almost everyone.

[Dakine10 5,452]

57 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I think this applies to almost everyone.

  Feel free to think what you want. However it's telling that here in the Libertarian rhetoric capital of the world, the Libertarian party gets ~3% of the popular vote. Not the most successful concept if you ask me. 

[IAMX 3,055]

9 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

  I don't know what the cost of living is in Baltimore, but the mayor did campaign on a $15 dollar an hour minimum wage. I doubt the mayor had an epiphany all of a sudden. My reply about $12 dollars an hour here is just to your contention that raising the minimum wage would eliminate the incentive for people to go further. Whether it's $12 or $15, it wouldn't. Not here.

Then we take California's 15 min wage statewide law.. which I'm sure will go over well in 70% of the state where the cost of living is a fraction of that in the Bay Area and LA Metro. Can't reason with the left. 

[Dakine10 5,452]

13 minutes ago, SRVT said:

Then we take California's 15 min wage statewide law.. which I'm sure will go over well in 70% of the state where the cost of living is a fraction of that in the Bay Area and LA Metro. Can't reason with the left. 

  You have your home city as Calgary. You probably know that Alberta is also soon to be a $15/hr minimum. The left must be a ubiquitous presence. Although I have to say, for the many years I spent in Alberta, it was always the most conservative province.

[yuna628 9,995]

11 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

  I don't know what the cost of living is in Baltimore, but the mayor did campaign on a $15 dollar an hour minimum wage. I doubt the mayor had an epiphany all of a sudden. My reply about $12 dollars an hour here is just to your contention that raising the minimum wage would eliminate the incentive for people to go further. Whether it's $12 or $15, it wouldn't. Not here.

Baltimore's cost of living can be quite high, even though there is a great deal of poverty.

To break it down:

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/baltimore

Even this link is low-ballin' it. Property taxes and water rates can be extremely high. We currently have a problem with a lot of fraud and error billing going on with the water dept. If you want to buy a huge fixer-upper home (and there's homes aplenty like that) you can find good deals. But quality of life in the inner city, and property values are pretty terrible though they have slowly been creeping up.

The minimum wage only was raised to $9.25 in 2017, after being fairly flat for a very long time.

It's hard to quantify Baltimore - travel down one road of Charles Street and you could be in abject poverty one minute to stately mansions and expensive high-rises in another. The ulta-rich downtown high-rises in the very heart of the city are ridiculous prices but surrounding them are beautiful old brownstones that are burnt out and rotting to the ground.

 

You can see in this link http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/24510 how even for one adult the current minimum wage won't cut it for a single mom or even just one single person. Most women decide to go into nursing careers to stay barely afloat.

 

TBH I find the argument about raising the wage means less productive work is silly. A job is a job. As TB pointed out any job is a good job (though some jobs aren't good jobs simply because of how the employee is treated in those jobs). Why does a job in the food service industry have to just be viewed as some 'placeholder' or 'non-serious' job? Because it's viewed as not really difficult to those in other industries? Or beneath them? I often feel sometimes like if the minimum wage was $1, people would complain about raising it to $2, or even $5! A young man I know  used to work at the local Pizza Hut, and he was also assistant manager there. He can't make it on the assistant manager salary alone - even though he loves Pizza Hut and pizza in general and would be content working there as his sole job so he could be close by and take care of his mom. Maybe that just seems like an unrealistic not striving for better type of idea. But why does everyone have to fit into the same box you want them to be in?

[Dashinka 26,709]

3 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

  Feel free to think what you want. However it's telling that here in the Libertarian rhetoric capital of the world, the Libertarian party gets ~3% of the popular vote. Not the most successful concept if you ask me. 

I guess I don't keep score like that, but what I was getting at is people of all ideologies tend to espouse a utopian concept of their respective ideologies.  Just because more people vote for them, doesn't mean they are any more realistic.