Captain Ewok, This Categories Business of Moving Posts Needs to Stop

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

P&R is just linked news stories. The forum should be called "Cut and Paste News." The OP's rarely add their opinion... they just post to align themselves to someone else's writing and don't add anything to it.

It'd be nice to see someone write "Hey, this news story got me thinking about XXX" and start the debate themselves. Instead they just post and wait for people to argue, it's all baiting all the time.

[Darnell 8,478]

yup, that's how I see it also - All Baiting, All the Time

Yay !

Nota.Bene.: 400 more posts to go, after this one !

Edited January 12, 2013 by Darnell

[Penny Lane 8,159]

I've thought for a while that P&R should be re-titled "Hot Topics." Threads about sex, religion, politics and other topics likely to spur heated debate could all go there, leaving OT for stuff of milder discussion.

I support this idea.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I support this idea.

If Eric hadn't ruined Expats, there would have been no need for P&R.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

P&R is just linked news stories. The forum should be called "Cut and Paste News." The OP's rarely add their opinion... they just post to align themselves to someone else's writing and don't add anything to it.

It'd be nice to see someone write "Hey, this news story got me thinking about XXX" and start the debate themselves. Instead they just post and wait for people to argue, it's all baiting all the time.

Way back when, Off Topic was really the only forum where members here could converse, share ideas, share stories and build a rapport with one another. We were a community as many of us became online friends. While it wasn't perfect, there were enough active, mature and level-headed members who kept the trouble-makers in check for the most part. Then the idea came about to create the regional subforums with the hope that members with similar backgrounds could have a place where they felt comfortable conversing with their shared interests. The resulting consequence is that many VJ'ers stopped participating in the Off Topic discussions, which left OT with a higher concentration of trouble-makers who then felt a sense of freedom to go about and be disruptive without too many members publicly admonishing them for their online behavior. The thoughtful discussions and civil debates that focused on current events became rare, so the Politics & Religion forum was created as a splinter from Off Topic with the hopes that somehow Off Topic would return to its golden years of rekindling community among members from different backgrounds.

Many of us who've been here awhile used to engage in the discussions but when there is a high concentration of members who aren't really interested in having a real conversation over a thread that was posted, and instead go around trying to derail or troll any POV or topic they don't like or agree with, there's little room, if any of having a real conversation. There's just not enough level-headed, active participants to have those kinds of conversations on a regular basis. This isn't unique to this site though. If you go to any political website, you'll find the same thing except when that site is heavily moderated.

Sharing an article or a news story goes back to the origins of Off Topic. Saying that P&R has been reduced to just that and implying that it was intentional by the members who post those articles and stories is ignoring the dynamics of what has happened to these boards after some major changes were made in how members would interact with one another, which is unfortunate. Things could be a lot better if the site Administrator would set out to recreate a sense of community outside of immigration related forums.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Lincolns mullet

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Mike, this thread isn't about me and yet both you and Charles have taken it upon yourselves to take personal swipes at me when I intentionally posted this outside the playground, trying to reach out to members who no longer post in OT. You both give good examples of what I'm talking about. There are people in OT that do nothing but antagonize and turn each and every thread into a flame war or personal attack. While I have participated in some of the shenanigans that goes on in OT, there used to be enough level-head posters that kept the playground behavior in check, particularly in a thread that deserves careful thought. Right now, as it stands, it's a pretty much, anything goes, atmosphere where the Moderators haplessly try to keep things civil.

I can tell you there are a quite a few people who have stopped posting in OT or left VJ altogether over this issue.

.......

(this is directed at my intended audience - long time members who have been avoiding posting in OT)

After giving it some thought, I think the best solution would be to have Off Topic split into two forums - one that is for more serious discussions and one for light-hearted topics. The more serious OT forum would then be moderated with the same scrutiny as the upper forums are currently.

I didn't initially respond to your post here, Charles, because for one, you're baiting and trolling this thread. This thread is not about me, for one. Second, if you go back and read the posts I made in that thread, I was trying to get participation in Off Topic back to what it used to be - where enough mature, level-headed members kept the ones who wanted to make it into their own sandbox, in check. Saying that after I had given it some thought and was open to the idea of creating a P&R shows that I was being flexible in trying to find a solution, not that I was ever a fan of it. So we tried it and it hasn't worked. Rebecca-Jo used to bring up this problem with the creation of regional subforums and how they isolated and further divided us.

But since you took upon yourself to quote me, I thought it's more appropriate to quote the full text of my response to Mike and you from that thread.

[Darnell 8,478]

If Eric hadn't ruined Expats, there would have been no need for P&R.

Would it have helped to have active moderation there, at Expats, with the moderator having to approve each post before it shows up?

Other sites do that, but it's a strain on the moderation team.

Or maybe it was just Eric, aye? An anomoly anywhere on the planet, regardless.

[Darnell 8,478]

FWIW, this demographic:

(this is directed at my intended audience - long time members who have been avoiding posting in OT)

why they not post in the upper forums, instead? You know, the basic concept of 'paying it forward' , helping out the noobs, just like someone helped them, prior?

Sure, OT got into a great p|ssing match, with personal attacks and belittlements - but - a human decided to do that, each time. Flawed human, or flawed decision by human, IMO.

Now the art of the veiled personal attack has been honed by some of the members, so a moderator really can't delete or ban because of that - as it's veiled - not so obvious. Good on them for the honing? Still amiss, though - why to even do that?

[Darnell 8,478]

...I was trying to get participation in Off Topic back to what it used to be - where enough mature, level-headed members kept the ones who wanted to make it into their own sandbox, in check. <snip>

Hey ! Why not get some of these mature, level-headed members to become limited moderators, instead? They'd only have rights in OT or P/R, no where else on the board.

IMO, that's the best way to keep that sandbox in check. Isn't it obvious that the current mods are way too busy to do it the way YOU want it done? Get more bodies, say 4 to 6, and make it happen!

[Ban Hammer 12,842]

I didn't initially respond to your post here, Charles, because for one, you're baiting and trolling this thread. This thread is not about me, for one. Second, if you go back and read the posts I made in that thread, I was trying to get participation in Off Topic back to what it used to be - where enough mature, level-headed members kept the ones who wanted to make it into their own sandbox, in check. Saying that after I had given it some thought and was open to the idea of creating a P&R shows that I was being flexible in trying to find a solution, not that I was ever a fan of it. So we tried it and it hasn't worked. Rebecca-Jo used to bring up this problem with the creation of regional subforums and how they isolated and further divided us.

But since you took upon yourself to quote me, I thought it's more appropriate to quote the full text of my response to Mike and you from that thread.

you can try that tactic if you'd like - the fact is, your two statements (which i quoted) contradict each other.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

you can try that tactic if you'd like - the fact is, your two statements (which i quoted) contradict each other.

Charles, this topic is about threads being moved out of P&R. Nitpicking over whether I was ever a fan of P&R isn't adding thing to the discussion Please stop.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

If Eric hadn't ruined Expats, there would have been no need for P&R.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Would it have helped to have active moderation there, at Expats, with the moderator having to approve each post before it shows up?

Other sites do that, but it's a strain on the moderation team.

Or maybe it was just Eric, aye? An anomoly anywhere on the planet, regardless.

ExPats was originally set up because members disagreed with moderation of any sorts and wanted a moderation free environment. That is what they got over on ex-pats - except that some people have difficulty handling such freedom and without any boundaries to keep their posting habits in check, they went overboard. The group then decided that a limited type of moderation would need to be put in place and it was - except that the moderators' abilities were also limited and they were not able to be as effective as they needed to be. The group eventually self-destructed, and the final death blow came when it was invaded by spammers - against whom the moderators with limited abilities were helpless.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Ok, I guess this will probably count as another 'little essay' ,

Many of those participating in the P&R forum view all topics as political in nature if there is any sort of politically based discussion happening in the community, government, etc. It is important to realize - at least for those of us who are moderating and 'organizing' VJ - that the same topic, depending on how it is presented and what information is included in a post - can be 'political' for one thread, but non or apolitical in a different thread. It is the content of the post that determines if it fits into P&R or fits into Off Topic. Just because a topic has had a high political involvement does not mean that everything to do about that topic is now political.

For example - global warming. There was a recent thread that presented the scientific facts about what the different global temperatures were this past year and used the phrase global warming. It was posted in P&R and moved to Off Topic because just using the phrase 'global warming' does not make a topic political. Scientists have long held that global warming is a natural function of our planet. The political aspect comes into play when we discuss how much impact human civilization is having on normal global warming and what we as societies can do to ameliorate the effects caused by both natural global warming and our own influences on the planet. The pros and cons that make it political are the differences between those who believe we have no impact on the climate and those who believe we do. Presenting the facts about the weather is not a political statement. It is a scientific and meteorological one. If the discussion related to posting the information becomes 'Isn't it horrible how much we have affected the environment this year?" then it becomes political. Just posting the article without commentary does not make it so.

There will be topics that become political after discussion starts and they can be moved to - or back to - P&R from Off Topic, just like there are discussions in Off Topic that end up becoming political and they can be moved to P&R. In many ways, anything 'can' become political - but just because it has been political in a different thread, does not necessarily mean it is political in this thread. Context is everything.

Regarding re-addressing the split of Off Topic into P&R and the Games threads, I still believe that the system works. I can see value in re-naming Politics and Religion 'Hot Topics", but then that means everything really needs to start out in Off Topic and then be moved since it is only participation that determines if it becomes a 'hot topic'. Perhaps a modification of the title to "Politics,Religion and Current Affairs" might address the problem. Off Topic does have a nice level of participation and a now friendly group who feels comfortable posting on a wide variety of topics - which is what it should be. "Politics, Religion and Current Affairs" becomes the forum for those who wish to 'debate' issues of concern, but I agree with those above who said in many cases news articles are posted without any sort of discussion or introduction by the OP. These posts often do come across as baiting and the fact the OP remains silent on the issue reminds me of someone throwing a bone in the middle of a pack of dogs, then stepping back to watch what happens. I think PR&CA would work better if people who post an article at least take a stand or present their position on a topic along with the news article. That might also help to foster a more responsible posting behaviour by those who participate there as well as give a more clear idea of the 'intent' for posting the information - and help moderators and organizers determine if it is political or non-political.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Kathryn41

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Regarding re-addressing the split of Off Topic into P&R and the Games threads, I still believe that the system works. I can see value in re-naming Politics and Religion 'Hot Topics", but then that means everything really needs to start out in Off Topic and then be moved since it is only participation that determines if it becomes a 'hot topic'. Perhaps a modification of the title to "Politics,Religion and Current Affairs" might address the problem. Off Topic does have a nice level of participation and a now friendly group who feels comfortable posting on a wide variety of topics - which is what it should be. "Politics, Religion and Current Affairs" becomes the forum for those who wish to 'debate' issues of concern, but I agree with those above who said in many cases news articles are posted without any sort of discussion or introduction by the OP. These posts often do come across as baiting and the fact the OP remains silent on the issue reminds me of someone throwing a bone in the middle of a pack of dogs, then stepping back to watch what happens. I think PR&CA would work better if people who post an article at least take a stand or present their position on a topic along with the news article. That might also help to foster a more responsible posting behaviour by those who participate there as well as give a more clear idea of the 'intent' for posting the information - and help moderators and organizers determine if it is political or non-political.

Thanks, Kathryn, for a well thought out response.

I think we should get rid of P&R and Off Topic and instead have a new forum called, Hot Topic/Current Events. It would be broad enough and vague enough to allow members to create threads containing almost any variety of subject matter and it would make the job of moderating/organizing easier in that forum. It would eliminate the need to move threads except in cases where they may fit better under the other forums on this site. As far as a hot topic going cold - you leave it up to the member participation in that thread. Threads that don't get replies quickly move off the front page. Now if there are VJ'ers who are cushioning their post numbers by resurrecting threads that have moved off the front page - Moderators can stop that behavior by hiding such posts. This would be win-win situation for both Mods and those who actively participate.

If you have any say in the matter, please consider this idea as I sincerely believe it will foster broader participation and invigorate the discussions.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Lincolns mullet