KLL

On 7/28/2020 at 12:27 AM, Kay & Evan said:

I wish you all the best! I would guess if you can get something in writing from the consular in Madrid it would help your case. 
You guys are coming to Chicago too? Small world! Maybe we could meet when you get here. Anyway good luck again!

By the way, in the end we were approved, but after this while process took so long, and after the whole world changed around us, we never went forward with the rest of the process because we were not sure if it would be a good time to move to the US in the midst of the pandemic.  So we will probably apply eventually but use another route, the marriage visa instead of K1.  The idea of moving to the states and my fiance not being able to work for a long time before getting a work permit scared us a bit considering the economic conditions at the time.  We applied in January 2020 before the pandemic spread and after things changed so much we just decided to wait and see.  with K1, once you are approved the clock starts ticking you have a limited time to move to the states before it expires etc. 

20 hours ago, cndrbk said:

@Kay & Evan @KLL

 

hello!

Our situation is a bit different and sorry for posting it. We have a question about civil union Spain and are having a hard time to find an answer.. so I hope you don’t mind asking you our question here

 

I’m trying to file the form I-130 for my partner who’s a resident in Spain. He has a history of civil union in Spain. We’re wondering if we need to include that as his marriage history, or since it seems it’s not really a marriage in Spain, we don’t need to list it as a marriage history. 
 

if you know, please let me know. Or point me to where we can find answers. (Should we contact the US embassy or consulate for a confirmation?)

 

thank you so much in advance!

So I am not sure but I can tell you what happened in our case:  Because I mentioned the Pareja de Hecho as evidence of our relationship, USCIS sent and RFE and asked us to explain this marriage and provide evidence that it was dissolved and that I am free to marry.  I thought this was strange because all of the information I saw on their website said that this was not recognized as marriage.

So in response to the RFE, based on feedback from this thread, I decided to present evidence from the Catalan law which essentially indicates the differences between Pareja de Hecho and actual marriage and also indicated how easily it can be dissolved and the obligations after dissolution etc.  Essentially I wrote a statement that said I was never married and that under catalan law, those that are in a pareja de hecho are free to marry and it automatically dissolves the pareja, according to law. 

I then waited for a response and was sent an approval of our application.  So in the end this was successful.  If I were you I would probably just not provide any indication that he ever had a civil union. It is not a marriage in Spain and is not recognized as a marriage by the USA, but just mentioning it could get you into a complicated situation of having to explain that and hoping your agent agrees.  It could end up delaying your application or perhaps even causing your application to be rejected.  I hope this helps

@Melc  Thanks for the input.  Yes I looked up the law specific to catalunya and it very clearly states that not only does this union dissolve when one or both members get married, but also that someone already in another marriage but separated can enter into a civil partnership (both of which directly contradict the idea that the partnership prevents one from marrying)/  Additionally I read the law and it states that if you cohabitate with an individual for 2 years or for any period of time with a common child, you automatically gain civil partnership status.  It also does not provide the ability to file income taxes jointly, nor does it automatically give financial a widow the assets of the deceased inless a will has been drawn up in advance.  Essentially it is just clearly not a marriage, which is why I included the documentation with my application.

I am jsut going to have a translation of the law along with a statement from my lawyer explaining that this is not a marriage and why and I will explain why I included the document in my submission.  I hope this does the trick.  If not then it will be back to square one and I will most likely start from scratch with CR1.  I wish I had heard more perspectives on this board before making the decision to file K1, but at this point it seems to me that we are so close that it makes no sense to start over.

Again thanks for the advice.

@Kay & Evan  Thanks for the reply.  yeah we were pretty shocked too considering so many people get approved for K1 even though they have only met once or twice in their lives it seems.  We provided a lengthy history of our relationship, starting off with the night we met and then detailing how the relationship progressed up to when and how we decided to marry.  We even both went and visited my family 2 summers ago (btw I am from Chicago too!).  YEs I asked the notary in Barcelona for documentation describing the law and that it is not a marriage or how it is different than marriage or that it does not prevent marriage but they don't seem to have anything helpful.  I think I will go to the consulate and see if I can get some advice on what to include.

Perhaps your pre-emptive  statements about civil partnership may have helped.  I am pretty sure we did something like that as well. At this point its been 6 months so I don't recall.  I am dreading digging back into the stack of 5000 papers to review.  Anyhow, I really appreciate the response and I am happy you guys had a simple procedure.  Best of luck!

Additionally (USCIS POLICY MANUAL) https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-2 :

"In order to be valid for immigration purposes, a same-sex marriage must meet all of the same requirements as an opposite-sex marriage. As with opposite-sex relationships, a civil union, domestic partnership, or other relationship that is not recognized as a legal marriage in the place of celebration is not considered a marriage for immigration purposes."

I also just found another poster on this forum who had the exact same situation as us (also spain, also pareja de hecho) and they were approved for the K1 and are now in the US.  They did not receive a RFE.  SO is there no standard/consistency?  It just depends on the consular officer?  I keep encountering advice that pareja de hecho is not marriage and therefore you cn not get CR1 with it.  Well if thats the case then it logically can not disqualify you from K1.  This is awfully confusing.

Sorry, I just noticed that you did in fact have a timeline on your profile page.  I see you did not get an RFE (unlike us) even though you were in the exact same situation as us.  I am happy that you guys managed to get approved and I see that your wedding is coming soon!  Congrats!  

Hi @Kay & Evan

I just read your post and almost thought I was reading my own words.  I am going through the exact same thing.  The difference being, I received a reply from USCIS and they mentioned that we included this document, and asked for us to prove that the pareja de hecho was dissolved and that we are free to marry.  This is difficult, because from the research we did, pareja de hecho is not marriage or euivalent and does not prevent individuals from marrying.

(here is the link to my thread.  there is quite a variety of conflicting information and advice: https://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/744446-k1-rfe-civil-union/#comments

I was wondering if you could perhaps post your progress as this was about 8 months ago.  Was you K1 approved?  Did you get an RFE like we did?  In the end did you guys move the the US?

Thank you for the reply, it would be very helpful.  I am wondering how I can prove that Pareja de hecho is not marriage and does not prevent us from marrying.

Additionally, I saw statments here that: you can't expect the officer to be an expert in civil  law i countries around the world.  but their own policy manual says otherwise (emphasis mine):

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-g-chapter-2

B. Common Law Marriage

The concept of common law marriage presupposes an honest good-faith intention on the part of two persons, free to marry, to live together as husband and wife from the inception of the relationship. Some states recognize common law marriages and consider the parties to be married. ^[16] In order for a common law marriage to be valid for immigration purposes:

• The parties must live in that jurisdiction; and

• The parties must meet the qualifications for common law marriage for that jurisdiction.

Other states may recognize a common law marriage contracted in another state even if the recognizing state does not accept common law marriage as a means for its own residents to contract marriage.

USCIS recognizes common law marriages for purposes of naturalization if the marriage was valid and recognized by the state in which the marriage was established. ^[17] This applies even if the naturalization application is filed in a jurisdiction that does not recognize or has never recognized the principle of common law marriage.

The officer should review the laws of the relevant jurisdiction on common law marriages to determine whether the applicant and spouse should be considered to be married for purposes of naturalization and when the marriage commenced.

@Pinkrlion  You say this, but I pasted a direct quote from travel.state.gov that says the USCIS that says that it is determined by how it is viewed in the country where it was executed.  Do you have a source for this ?  I am genuinely interested in seeing that because I looked everywhere before I filed and the only thing I saw is :

"At this time, only a relationship legally considered to be a marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place establishes eligibility as a spouse for immigration purposes."

Or on USCIS website:

"USCIS does not recognize the following relationships as marriages, even if valid in the place of celebration:

"Civil unions, domestic partnerships, or other such relationships not recognized as marriages in the place of celebration"

How could I think any different if this is what their own website?  

@geowrian Thanks for this advice, this makes sense to me.  Of course now I regret having submitted this form in the first place, but I honestly do believe that this was no impediment to marriage, and the notary agrees, I spoke with them today.  I just need a way to show that.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I have looked further into this and have reviewed the actual law, and indeed, pareja de hecho in catalunya (where I was living and where this agreement was executed) is not considered marriage, and I found some very interesting aspects about it including:

Section two

Extinction of the stable couple

Article 234-4

Causes of extinction

1. The stable couple becomes extinct for the following reasons:

a) Cessation of cohabitation with rupture of the communal of living.

b) Death or declaration of death of one of the cohabitants.

c) Marriage of any of the cohabitants.

d) Common agreement of the cohabitants formalized in a public deed.

e) Will of one of the cohabitants reliably notified to the other.

2. The extinction of the stable couple implies the revocation of the consents and powers that any of the cohabitants has granted in favor of the other.

additionally:

Article 234-1

Stable couple

Two people living in a community similar to marriage are considered a stable couple in any of the following cases:

a) If the cohabitation lasts more than two uninterrupted years.

b) If during cohabitation, they have a common child.

c) If they formalize the relationship in a public deed.

So essentially if a couple lives together for 2 years, or has a child while living together or officially formalizes the relationship (my case) they are considered to have a stable relationship.  

Also, not only does it not prevent you from marrying, but it is dissolved in the case that one member of the couple marries, if the couple stops living together and stops having a relationship,  or even if one member reliably notifies the other.  As you can see this is nothing like a marriage.  In fact,with this arrangement, the couple can not file taxes jointly, as this is a State (national) law matter and the partnership is filed according to local law of Catalunya.

So, the US gov states clearly that "civil unions" are recognized as marriage by the US only if they are recognized as marriage in the country in which it was executed.  This quite clearly is not recognized as marriage in Catalunya/Spain.  I knew this at the time, which is why I included the document in the first place.  

The problem is that I somehow need to prove this to them.  Luckily I found out that I can dissolve the partnership via an online portal, which I think I will try and do tomorrow.  It is much easier to get into/out of this type of an agreement than a marriage, another fact that shows that this is not recognized as marriage.  The very fact that the law establishing this procedure explicitly states that the relationship is dissolved if one part is married, proves that this agreement does not prevent one from marrying.

I think what I may do is combine both approaches.  One one hand dissolve the relationship, and provide proof of that. I can additionally include a copy of the law which states that this does not prevent me from marrying to show that despite the fact that I did dissolve the relationship, it never prevented me from marrying  in the first place.

At the same time, I have noticed that many here seem to agree that K1 is not the way to go generally if you do not have to (for reasons of separation).  I did look into the aspect of the green card coming later in time and also not being able to work for a period upon entering the country.  Additionally, the increased cost was a fact.  But the reason we chose K! is that we wanted to move to the US as soon as possible, even if it meant my wife having to be there for a short time without the ability to work.  

I think people misunderstood when I said marriage in Spain would take 6 months.  The probelm is not that taking 6 months is such a big deal, it is that the 6 months to get married plus the additional time CR1 would take combined created an extra 1 year delat compared to K1.  Additionally, understand this was pre-covid so there was no way of knowing that k1 would be suspended and cr1 would not be etc.

One poster here stated something to the effect that if I dissolve the relationship, that may show that I was unable to marry at the time I sent the I-129F, therefore disqualifying me.  This makes me nervous, despite the fact that dissolving the relationship according to their request does not in fact prove that I was unable to marry a the time the application was filed.

At this point I am now starting to question if I should still go with K1 despite the fact that I am very close to having this complete.  The idea of starting from scratch and taking another 1-2 years for the process to be completed, when I see it as being very close at this point through K1 seems daunting.  If not for this RFE I feel like we would soon be arranging a visa interview and therefore we would be almost home free.  Another added factor is the suspension of K1 visas due to covid.  So I wil need to research ths before making a final decision.

Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the long winded post.  Hopefully someone at some point can gain something from the discussion.

The reason we went that route were:

A) We were not married 

B) We wanted to get married

C) We wanted to get married in the USA as we were both living outside out country of origin.  Spain is also a headache for all administrative tasks and it would take 6 months to get married and we would surely encounter hurdles a neither of us were from there. It didn't make sense to start a marriage process only to later start a visa process months later when we could take care of the marriage after the visa was granted

D) The K1 process is significantly faster

E) I spoke with friends who went through each process and this was the recommendation

Of course I know many people use K1 because they are separated and one person is living in the US and this allows the person to fly in for the wedding and stay.  This is not my case but it doesn't seem any less appropriate for me.  The only holdup is this civil partnership.  Had this not slowed things down (also covid) we would be in the US shortly.  I don't see why the decision to go for K1 is seen as the issue.  USCIS doesnt seem to see it as an issue.  The issue is the civil partnership.  Which is not a marriage, not in Spain nor USA.  

BUt either way, this is the current state of things.  TO go back to the drawing board and start from scratch wasting perhaps 18 month doesn't seem to solve any problems but rather just creates new problems: wasting time, money, having to gather all the documents and start the packet again from scratch.  It seems much easier/faster to just annul the civil partnership and continue with K1/  In actuality, just providing evidence that civil partnership in Spain does not disqualify us from having the ability to marry SHOULD be sufficient.  But I don't want to risk it so I think I will just go forward with dissolving the partnership, which, because it is not a marriage, seems easy to do.  The only problem is I don't know how much time it will take or if I can do it from abroad.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

@Luckycuds Thanks for the response.  Yes we provided a translation of the stable partnership document , done a professional translator along with a notarized certification of the translation.  Essentially it just says:  In the register of stable couples, there is a record of a stable partnership formed by (names).  That is all this document says, that we are a stable couple.  It is not a marriage, it really isn't even a civil union (which is what is used in countries where same sex marriage is not recognized), it is techinically called "pareja estable" or "parejo de hecho"  : stable partnership.  Spain does not recognize it as a marriage.  In fact this partnership is not even binding outside of Spain. It is literally an administrative formality for gaining access to bureaucratic benefits for stable couples living in Spain.  

I will take your advice and seek a document from my lawyer which states how this partnership is recognized by law in Spain and I will also dissolve the partnership (despite the fact that the law states that if the couple gets married to eachother or if either member gets married outside of the partnership, the partnership is automatically dissolved - meaning it is unnecessary).

You are right, I can not expect the office to be an expert on every country etc, but I would expect maybe they would have a simple list that shows in which countries these relationships are considered marriage, just as they have a list that shows in which countries same sex marriages are recognized etc.

@Boiler I am interested in hearing your reason for this recommendation?  After all this would mean first getting married (which takes time and money) then starting the process again from scratch (and a longer process at that).  I don't see what logic there might be in support of making that decision.  Especially considering how long and difficult it was to gather documents and that we would have to start that process all over again for no reason.  It seems easier to just dissolve the partnership.

@payxibka   Thanks. Yes I have seen this definition, and again, this agreement falls into "domestic partnership" which does not grant the rights that marriage does.  It is a much less formal arrangement and only requires that we have lived together for 6 months. 

Guys, I did not detail the full packet I submitted.  Of course I submitted an affidavit showing intent to marry.  I am not asking for advice on what I should have done.  The past is the past. I am asking for advice on what I should do.  

I am receiving a lot of answers here which, quite honestly, are not helpful and are also quite frankly incorrect.  For example @Orangesapples and @SteveInBostonI130 , saying I should have filed a CR1 visa.  The official statements made by USCIS which I posted above specifically state that civil union is only recognized as marriage by USA for countries that recognize them as marriage.  In Spain civil union is not recognized as marriage ccording to law - as I stated previously.  So, no I should not have filed CR1 visa (spouse visa) as I am not married and my fiance is not my spouse.  That would have been specifically going against their own qualifications as posted on their website.  I would have been rejected for that visa as I am not married. I am not sure why you would be telling me to go against their recommendations. That is not helpful.  Also I understand that most people do K1 for the reason you stated, but considering I am not married and would like to get married, there are 2 options, get married together in the USA with a k1, or get married abroad and then file CR1.  Considering we want to get married in USA and not Europe and that marriage in Europe can take much time, plus that the K1 is a faster route to my fiance's visa, we selected K1 after consulting with an immigration attorney and friends who went through the CR1 and K1 process.  The fact that we are together does not rule out the K1 process as an option by any means.

Additionally @Jorgedig @payxibka and @Luckycuds I am aware that a statement of intent to marry is required, and yes I provided it.  We both signed an affidavit and had it notarized.  Again we spent months researching this and providing all the documentation requested.  I understand that simple statement is all that is "needed."  I also understand thousands of people have gotten approved with as much.  But I have also seen that many people have been denied or have been sent RFEs due to not providing enough documentation. To pretend that all that is "needed" - the bare minimum -  is all that one should send is not really accurate is it.  In fact, from what I have researched, people almost always send more than what is "needed" or "required" to avoid an RFE.  The instructions are very vague and provide a loose list of evidence that could be supplied in support of or as evidence of the relationship and intent to marry etc.  This is why people send plane ticket receipts, photos, documentation of cohabitation, text messages etc etc.  No this process is not "very simple." If it were, there would not be lawyers paid thousands of dollars and forums of thousands of people asking questions and companies that exist solely to provide help to people in the process.  Again, telling me that this is so simple is not helpful.

I asked for advice on what I should do moving forward.  Not what I should have done in the past (which can not be changed) and oversimplification as well as wisdom coming from people who already know I received an RFE and have all the answers looking back in time, but no advice on what should be done now is not helpful.  I already posted that indeed this was not "required" and I posted the reason for my inclusion of the documents.  If you do not have anything to add that can be helpful in terms of how to move forward in this process, I would ask that you do not comment as that is not the purpose of this thread.

Yes you can not "prove" intent.  But you can show evidence of intent and evidence of bonfide relationship status. This is what I intended with this documentation.  You can not prove the relationship either, but you can provide evidence in support of it.  That is the purpose of providing all the documentation requested.

@powerpuff Thank you for your advice.  I am intending to do this, but I am a bit nervous that it will not be complete in time for my deadline.  I was hoping someone might have some advice in regard to if there can be extension granted etc.

Again, I was happy to share my case in order to help people who may be in a similar situation in the future and may need advice, and I also would be happy to receive advice as to what should be done moving forward.  But please for anyone who is just looking to tell me what I should have done in the past, hindsight is 20/20.  Knowing what I know now, even I could tell myself that I should not have included that document despite the fact that I know that I am not married and that I am free to marry as stated in Spanish law.  

Thanks in advanced for any advice anyone can provide.

Agreed it wasn’t required, but one requirement is documenting intent to marry and the no ago de relationship - and given the vagueness as to how u can prove such condition , why would I not include it considering I followed the rules of the game that they set. I confirmed it with their one guidelines as well as the Spanish law. 
 

I was very careful with that. 
 

I am not having a typical wedding with reception and catering etc so without such evidence it seemed I needed something more than merely affidavit to show intent. 

I wanted to give some info here that some might find helpful as I have managed to find helpful here over the K1 process.

I am American and planning to marry my European fiance.  We lived together in Barcelona for 5 years submitted out I-129F at the end of January.  We waited patiently for 5 months, but 2 weeks ago we received an email that we had an RFE letter on our way.  This was very surprising considering our situation is non-typical as far as K1 visas go.  We have been living together for the last 7 years and are living together currently in Europe.  We spent months gathering documents and even felt that we provided a wealth of documentation including plane tickets and rental contracts spanning the last 5 years plus.  We had no idea why the I-129F was not approved.

The RFE arrived the other day and we were shocked to see that the request is due to the fact that we formed a civil union in Spain about 2 years ago.  If anything we felt this would only benefit our case. We provided documentation of the Civil Union (in Spain it is called Pareja de Hecho) to help establish proof of a bonafide relationship and our intent to marry.  Before submitted we searched forums and looked at official government websites.  On travel.state.gov we found the following in a FAQ:

Q: I am in a civil union or domestic partnership; will this be treated the same as a marriage?

A: At this time, only a relationship legally considered to be a marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place establishes eligibility as a spouse for immigration purposes.

Given that Pareja de Hecho is not considered to be a marriage in Spain, I am quite confused.  The RFE asks us to:

"explain this documentation and submit evidence that this civilly registered partnership has been terminated" and that we are free to marry.  

Again, I am confused because according to Spanish law, if one of us is to get married, it automatically annuls the civil union.  It is not a marriage, and people in a civil union in Spain are free to marry.  It is in fact considered a step in the direction of marriage for those couples who are not yet ready to marry.  I am not sure if the officer on the case is not familiar with Spanish law or what, but the US government has stated that this is not recognized as a marriage and therefore it does not prevent us from marrying.  If this was considered to be a marriage, we would have instead applied for IR1.

I wanted to inform people on this forum that this is definitely something that you should look into before filing in order to avoid a set back such as this.  

Additionally I wanted to ask if anyone else has had the same response (or a response the contrary).

Also, I wanted to seek advice from the people on the forum:  Do you think it would be best to annul our civil union and then provide evidence of it, or instead, should we provide evidence that this civil union in Spain does not prevent us from marrying?  According to US law it seems this is dictated by the law of country in which the union was registered.  I am sure I could provide such documentation.  But I am afraid that they will still deny my I-129F or ask for us to annul the union despite the fact that according to their own rules, this is not necessary.  Additionally, we are not in Spain and due to COVID we may not be able to travel there in the coming period in order to cancel our civil union.  Also it may take significant time to cancel the union as this is Spain we are talking about.  We have a deadline of only 2 months to provide this documentation.  So this needs to be taken into account as well.  We spent a ton of time and money and work putting all of this documentation together and we want to make sure we do this right to avoid having to start over again.

Additionally, the RFE asks us to explain how we met.  This is also a surprise because I provided a text (with affidavit) of over one page that explains how we met in detail including the circumstances of meeting as well as the exact date of the meeting and a detailed explanation of how this meeting progresses to a relationship.  I am not sure what more I can provide to explain this.  I can send the same document but with added details, but I am confused as to why this was requested.

Anyhow, thank you for any help you can provide and I hope someone benefits from hearing this example of a reason for RFE so they can avoid this delay.

Thanks!