Minneapolis Shooting [spelling in title corrected]

[Ban Hammer 14,873]

1 hour ago, S2N said:

 

Ignoring the specifics of the agency involved, I think the normal expectation would be you shoot at the tires not the person if you think they’re trying to ram you.

 

no, the normal expectation would be to know something about firearms and how ineffective that tactic would be:
- this isn't a hollywood movie, where every cop is an olympic level pistol shooter who always hits what he aims at.  
- the tires presented a smaller profile than the driver and were obscured by the vehicle - take a tape measure and see how far you are from the front of a 
vehicle before you can even see the tires.
- shooting tires out does not stop the vehicle and is not a time sensitive way to end the threat
- bullets ricochet - shooting at tires will result in bullets that miss (and reference the first point - there's a lot, look up the percentage of misses in officer
shootings) and you'll have everyone within 200 yards in danger.

Edited yesterday at 04:30 PM by Ban Hammer

[Crazy Cat 46,040]

23 minutes ago, S2N said:

If a reasonable person in his position knowing all the facts he did would reach the same conclusion, then it’s authorized.

Well said......

Life doesn't happen in slow motion......Officers have to make split-second decisions....in real time.

Edited yesterday at 03:44 PM by Crazy Cat

[Boiler 48,466]

The one thing there is no shortage of is of video coverage, the wife had got out to film, now we can guess why, unlikely expecting the outcome.

[S2N 652]

6 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

no, the normal expectation would be to know something about firearms and how ineffective that tactic would be:
- this isn't a hollywood movie, where every cop is an olympic level pistol shooter who always hits what he aims at.  
- the tires presented a smaller profile than the driver and were obscured by the vehicle - take a tape measure and see how far you are from the front of a 
vehicle before you can even see the tires.
- shooting tires out does not stop the vehicle and is not a time sensitive way to end the threat
- bullets ricochet - shooting at tires will result in bullets that miss (and reference the first point - there's a lot, look up the percentage of misses in officer
shootings) and you'll have everyone within 100 years in danger.

And that’s something his defense counsel could argue to investigators. We don’t just take government agents at their word that it was the only option.
 

I disagree with that point of view and think it’s overly permissive to the government, but I understand that it’s an argument made in good faith.

 

The entire point of my comments is that I think a rush to judgment on either side isn’t warranted based on what’s come out, and that it’s healthy to be skeptical of anyone when they have taken a life, but especially the government.
 

Just now, Crazy Cat said:

Well said......

Yes, what his state of mind would have been assuming he was rationale is what matters. The fact that he was dragged makes it more likely he was not thinking rationally through no fault of his own; which increases the chances of it not being legal on the part of the government even if he wouldn’t have any culpability. That goes to what I was hinting at earlier — there’s likely more reforms needed.

Why did ICE have an officer who had been dragged by a car doing house-to-house visits on a street in an area that was known to be hostile? That’s a reasonable question to ask.

[Crazy Cat 46,040]

21 minutes ago, S2N said:

Why did ICE have an officer who had been dragged by a car doing house-to-house visits on a street in an area that was known to be hostile?

Why did the woman go there to interfere with federal law enforcement actions?  Why do Walz and Frey defy federal law?  Why was MPD barred from helping ICE in this "known" hostile neighborhood? Lots of reasonable questions to be answered.  There needs to be accountability......in Minnesota.

Edited yesterday at 04:09 PM by Crazy Cat

[Boiler 48,466]

Hopefully he has lawyered up,the world we live in, but I do not see a case to answer. No prosecutor is taking this on.

[Dashinka 26,434]

1 hour ago, S2N said:

I’m sure there is as well.
 

I also don’t think there’s any evidence he was hit yet, unless something has come out in the last 24 hours that I missed. The videos I’ve seen seem to suggest he wasn’t, but hoping to get more so there’s a full accounting, wherever that lands.

 

Its also looks like he was dragged in a routine traffic stop last year. That probably had an impact on his state of mind which would of course impact the analysis here.

 

My initial thought on this is that it could go either way on legality, but there’s probably a more systemic problem this represents. The loss of one life is a tragedy, but if there’s reforms that can come from it, that’s where the investigation comes into play.

A great example of LE reforms happened a few years ago not far from where I live.  A low speed chase resulted in an officer/deputy being killed by a driver when the officer was requested to lay out spike strips to take out the tires of the fleeing suspect.  The officer was clear of the general area (in a field off the side of the road), but apparently the driver saw the strips and veered toward the officer to avoid them, hitting and killing the officer.  Now the LE agency does not use spike strips anymore except under special circumstances.

[S2N 652]

28 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

Why did the woman go there to interfere with federal law enforcement actions?  Why do Walz and Frey defy federal law?  Why was MPD barred from helping ICE in this "known" hostile neighborhood? Lots of reasonable questions to be answered.  There needs to be accountability......in Minnesota.

Sure; no disagreement there.

 

But typically the expectation is the government is held to a higher standard when it takes a life, since there’s functionally no recourse when a LEO decides to use deadly force.

 

The federal courts can handle the State/Federal jurisdiction questions and the role the deceased had in it will be handled in the overall investigation.

 

1 minute ago, Dashinka said:

A great example of LE reforms happened a few years ago not far from where I live.  A low speed chase resulted in an officer/deputy being killed by a driver when the officer was requested to lay out spike strips to take out the tires of the fleeing suspect.  The officer was clear of the general area (in a field off the side of the road), but apparently the driver saw the strips and veered toward the officer to avoid them, hitting and killing the officer.  Now the LE agency does not use spike strips anymore except under special circumstances.

Yes. This. Even if the officer isn’t personally culpable to the point of a crime, it doesn’t mean that as an agent of the  government he acted correctly, legally, or in this best manner. There have been more federal shootings even in the last week, probably because federal officers have been in the streets interacting more with people than they’re accustomed to.

 

Using this investigation as a way to see if there’s more general reforms would be useful.

[Dashinka 26,434]

52 minutes ago, S2N said:

And the question is not whether he believed that. Given the fact he was dragged at a traffic stop, I’m pretty sure he did. That’s awful and a tragedy.

 

The question is if a reasonable third-party would believe that. From what has come out, I don’t think there’s enough evidence to make that conclusion yet. It’s also hampered by the fact that reasonable people of goodwill can and do disagree, which like I said, is why we have investigations, grand juries, and juries.

 

The taking of life by the government is always a tragedy, even when justified, because it’s the use of the supreme power of the state against someone with no recourse. A full investigation doesn’t just take his word that he was afraid for his life/serious injury. It looks to see if that belief is justified. That’s what we need to take place now.

What really makes this tragedy even more sad is when politicians on both sides (Noem is terrible when flying off the cuff, Trump is too early in his assessment, and Walz and Frey are just trying to whip up more dissent) jump to conclusions before the investigation has been concluded.  I am fine with the DOJ/FBI doing it as there are enough decent field agents that will not make this political, so like you, I have also cautioned waiting for the investigation to conclude.

[Crazy Cat 46,040]

1 minute ago, S2N said:

Using this investigation as a way to see if there’s more general reforms would be useful.

Here is a suggested reform:  Don't interfere with federal law enforcement actions.  Take your grievance to the courts.

[Dashinka 26,434]

34 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

Why did the woman go there to interfere with federal law enforcement actions?  Why do Walz and Frey defy federal law?  Why was MPD barred from helping ICE in this "known" hostile neighborhood? Lots of reasonable questions to be answered.  There needs to be accountability......in Minnesota.

Like I mentioned earlier, why are the leftist activists even protesting ICE?  Are they enforcing laws they made up?  The protests belong with members of Congress to change any laws people feel are unjust.  Of course this has to be political and in this case one person is gone, and the other faces a major upheaval.  

[S2N 652]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

Here is a suggested reform:  Don't interfere with federal law enforcement actions.  Take your grievance to the courts.

Sure, but federal law doesn’t authorize the death penalty for interfering with federal officers.

 

A bit tongue in cheek, but LEO’s are held to a higher standard than the public. If there’s a systemic reform that can help here, that’s a positive thing. I don’t think anyone thinks this woman’s death was a good thing. If there’s a way to avoid it in the future. That’s positive.

[Ban Hammer 14,873]

6 minutes ago, S2N said:

Sure, but federal law doesn’t authorize the death penalty for interfering with federal officers.

 

the driver was not shot for "...interfering with federal officers."

[S2N 652]

10 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Like I mentioned earlier, why are the leftist activists even protesting ICE?  Are they enforcing laws they made up?  The protests belong with members of Congress to change any laws people feel are unjust.  Of course this has to be political and in this case one person is gone, and the other faces a major upheaval.  

I live in an area that had increased ICE presence: I don’t think the protestors are doing anything positive, but the ICE presence is actually impacting legal immigrants as well. The gripe is that they’re going beyond the laws Congress wrote or enforcing them in a reckless way that puts US citizens at risk for detention or at the very least economic loss. Not that any of the protestors in the streets could explain it that way.

 

As an example, I’m friends with a few local Central American immigrants who are naturalized citizens that work in upscale bars around me. They uber to and from work now rather than driving because they’re afraid of getting detained because the push in our area has been very broad and they don’t have passports even if naturalized. Ubering to work today as a restaurant worker, even if well paid, isn’t economically sustainable.

 

I don’t see the solution as getting physically between LEO’s and houses (that’s stupid for any number of reasons), but the grip is that there’s a very strong sense in local *legal* immigrant communities that the people who came here legally are also at risk.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,506]

1 hour ago, Ban Hammer said:

no, the normal expectation would be to know something about firearms and how ineffective that tactic would be:
- this isn't a hollywood movie, where every cop is an olympic level pistol shooter who always hits what he aims at.  
- the tires presented a smaller profile than the driver and were obscured by the vehicle - take a tape measure and see how far you are from the front of a 
vehicle before you can even see the tires.
- shooting tires out does not stop the vehicle and is not a time sensitive way to end the threat
- bullets ricochet - shooting at tires will result in bullets that miss (and reference the first point - there's a lot, look up the percentage of misses in officer
shootings) and you'll have everyone within 200 yards in danger.

100% shooting out tires is Hollywood.