N-400: How many days spent outside the US?

[*FishF00D* 45]

Hey all,

 

I'm about to file my N-400 application but I'm curious to know how other people counted their travel days. The instructions say to count how many days you were outside of the US for over 24 hours -- so, does that mean we don't include "travel days?" (ex. If I took a flight at Noon from New York to Canada, does that "day" count toward my total?)

I've made ~10 trips out of the US in the last 5 years, so whether or not I include my travel days will change my total count by 20 days.

 

Thank you!

[OldUser 6,890]

5 minutes ago, Charlene/Neale said:

Hey all,

 

I'm about to file my N-400 application but I'm curious to know how other people counted their travel days. The instructions say to count how many days you were outside of the US for over 24 hours -- so, does that mean we don't include "travel days?" (ex. If I took a flight at Noon from New York to Canada, does that "day" count toward my total?)

I've made ~10 trips out of the US in the last 5 years, so whether or not I include my travel days will change my total count by 20 days.

 

Thank you!

I would count travel days. You get out of the US in that day.

 

20 days is nothing, in 5 years scope. Do you not pass the physical presense test if you count those days as a whole day?

[*FishF00D* 45]

I still pass the physical presence test (each trip was less than 1 month long) but I wanted to be accurate in my count relative to whatever border-crossing data they'll check it against.

[OldUser 6,890]

Found this thread:

 

 

[OldUser 6,890]

"USCIS will count the day that an applicant departs from the United States and the day he or she returns as days of physical presence within the United States for naturalization purposes"

 

From https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-d-chapter-4

 

 

[Mike E 11,741]

31 minutes ago, Charlene/Neale said:

Hey all,

 

I'm about to file my N-400 application but I'm curious to know how other people counted their travel days. The instructions say to count how many days you were outside of the US for over 24 hours -- so, does that mean we don't include "travel days?" (ex. If I took a flight at Noon from New York to Canada, does that "day" count toward my total?)

I've made ~10 trips out of the US in the last 5 years, so whether or not I include my travel days will change my total count by 20 days.

 

Thank you!

I counted:

 

days away = date of return minus date of departure 

 

so for example if I departed 11/14/2021 and returned 11/16/2021 then because 15 - 14 = 2 that is 2 days away.  
 

This is more conservative  than  USCIS policy;

 

“USCIS will count the day that an applicant departs from the United States and the day he or she returns as days of physical presence within the United States for naturalization purposes”

 

USCIS policy would thus say: 

 

16 - 14 -1   = 1  day away, even though I was outside the USA on 3 separate days, 2  of those days I was also in the USA.  
 

 

Then I went to my interview and the ISO insisted that both the day of departure and day of return counted as away from the USA. 
 

So for  example if I wrote 2 days away, the ISO insisted it was 3 days away (which breaks USCIS policy).  
 

Since this unlawful discrepancy was not material to my case, because I had well the require 5 * 366 / 2 = 915 days of physical presence no matter which of the 3 ways we calculated it, I agree to sign off of on his changes.  

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mike E

[OldUser 6,890]

@Charlene/Neale I think either way IO may recalculate your days as they wish. You just have to briefly explain your methodology of counting days if they ask you to. Either way you pass the test, so maybe stick with USCIS policy and give them the print out if they question it 😀

Edited November 2, 2022 by OldUser

[Lil bear 4,252]

53 minutes ago, OldUser said:

I would count travel days. You get out of the US in that day.

 

20 days is nothing, in 5 years scope. Do you not pass the physical presense test if you count those days as a whole day?

You do NOT count travel days. Part day in the US is considered IN the US not out 

[Lil bear 4,252]

24 minutes ago, OldUser said:

@Charlene/Neale I think either way IO may recalculate your days as they wish. You just have to briefly explain your methodology of counting days if they ask you to. Either way you pass the test, so maybe stick with USCIS policy and give them the print out if they question it 😀

This is one area where the IO does not have discretion. Part day in is considered a full day in by USCIS calculations 

[OldUser 6,890]

3 minutes ago, Lil bear said:

This is one area where the IO does not have discretion. Part day in is considered a full day in by USCIS calculations 

Read @Mike E response.

[da95826 387]

If you were in the USA for any period of time in a day, even just one minute, it is not counted as time out of the USA. So only days where all 24 hours are out of the USA are counted against your continuous residency.

[Lil bear 4,252]

5 hours ago, OldUser said:

Read @Mike E response.

My own experience a few months ago for my N400 interview  is that the computer software calculates the number of days from DHS/CBP records and the IO just advises any differences from what you had put on the form. No way of arguing with the system 

[Mike E 11,741]

3 hours ago, Lil bear said:

My own experience a few months ago for my N400 interview  is that the computer software calculates the number of days from DHS/CBP records and the IO just advises any differences from what you had put on the form. No way of arguing with the system 

And yet this software accepts a trip like:

 

11/16/2022 to 11/17/2022

 

Since both days are in the  USA  it should reject the entry. 
 

Online is good for one thing: it produces faster interviews. But it is riddled with bugs.  
 

The trust in the infallibility of software is amusing. It has been mathematically proven  that in general software cannot be proven to work.  It’s much worse when the software is clearly written with out formal engineering design behind it.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mike E

[*FishF00D* 45]

8 hours ago, Mike E said:

And yet this software accepts a trip like:

 

11/16/2022 to 11/17/2022

 

Since both days are in the  USA  it should reject the entry. 
 

Online is good for one thing: it produces faster interviews. But it is riddled with bugs.  
 

The trust in the infallibility of software is amusing. It has been mathematically proven  that in general software cannot be proven to work.  It’s much worse when the software is clearly written with out formal engineering design behind it.  

 

That's a good point as well - software can be difficult to navigate, especially with stipulations like how being in the US at all in a given day counts as "in" the us. I guess there must be some margin for error on the counts then!

 

I guess like you said in one of your earlier posts, as long as the amount of days spent out of the US doesn't make a material difference to your application then a small in-discrepancy in the count can probably be easily explained and understood. Appreciate all the feedback!

 

 

 

[Mike E 11,741]

Epilogue

 

My wife filed her N-400 online this week and I today I downloaded the PDF N-400 the online form.generated

 

And the form uses this formula for calculating days of absence:

 

days absent = (date of return minus date of departure)  minus 1

 

So for example, we had a trip when we departed the U.S. January 14, and returned January 17.  January 14, 15, 16, 17, are 4 days. Two of those days were partially the U.S. (January 14 and 17), and 2 of those days were completely outside the U.S. (January 15 and 16).

 

And the form calculated that as 2 days of absence, which fits USCIS published policy. 👍

 

So if you are on the margin with physical presence, it appears that you would be advised to use the electronic form as then the USCIS arguments are with its own IT staff and not you.