Is it ethical to purchase an EV lithium battery powered vehicle?

[Mike E 11,727]

On 6/16/2022 at 3:09 AM, Dashinka said:

Keep in mind that solar panels do not last forever either.  As to the electric cost, I am curious if you know if the $700/month was because of the EV, or if it is the norm for your area?  I know here, the monthly bill in June/July/August is around $200 (we use gas for heat unless of course the Dems get their way).  Most EVphiles don't really get into how much their electric bill goes up after they buy an EV, they just say it is less than the cost of gas which I agree it usually is, but the savings alone does not allow for break even very quickly.

It has been eye opening shopping for homes in AZ.  A high percentage (over 10 percent) of homes have solar panels and most of those have a leased solar panel arrangement.
 

Scam 1: Sellers expect buyers to take over the lease for which they have to qualify with a credit pull.  As a retiree with zero taxable income I would never qualify so in my offers I’ve told the seller they have to convey their home unencumbered to me.  
 

I told one seller to cancel the lease and tell the solar company to come collect their garbage. The panel companies won’t repossess the panels: the lease contract comes with a cancellation for fee clause and the homeowner is left with useless eyesore.  Can you imagine leasing a car where if you stopped paying the lease the dealer comes to your garage, removes the engine and cements the car to your garage floor? Well that’s the solar panel lease business model.  
 

Scam 2: I had a roof inspection on one of these homes.  It turns out roofers don’t install solar panels on roofs and solar panel companies aren’t good at roofing.  
 

Problems include causing leaks when improperly fastening solar panels to roofs or leaving insufficient space between the bottom of the panel and the top of the roof to service the roof tiles (clay / concrete tiles tend to come loose or break) 

 

Scam 3: people with solar panels are often paying crazy electric bills. Electricity in most of Arizona is a 1/5th what it is of California and so I would expect significantly lower electric bills. But one home with panels had bills in excess of $500 a month.  There’s no actual evidence solar works and as noted in this thread, the panels degrade over time. 
 

If you want solar, invest in a company that manages large commercial arrays of panels and sells electricity to utilities. Your investment should be 25 times your annual electric bill. Use the dividends and/or share appreciation to pay your electric bill: withdraw 4 percent annually from your investment.  If this investment can’t sustain itself to to cover your electric bills then you know even commercial solar isn’t practical.  
 

EVs are ethical.  Residential solar is not ethical.  

Edited June 17, 2022 by Mike E

[Dashinka 23,375]

9 hours ago, Neonred said:

German car makers were late to put in cup holders.

Yeah, it is interesting, the German carmakers actually focused on what a car is for, transportation.

[Dashinka 23,375]

27 minutes ago, Mike E said:

It has been eye opening shopping for homes in AZ.  A high percentage (over 10 percent) of homes have solar panels and most of those have a leased solar panel arrangement.
 

Scam 1: Sellers expect buyers to take over the lease for which they have to qualify with a credit pull.  As a retiree with zero taxable income I would never qualify so in my offers I’ve told the seller they have to convey their home unencumbered to me.  
 

I told one seller to cancel the lease and tell the solar company to come collect their garbage. The panel companies won’t repossess the panels: the lease contract comes with a cancellation for fee clause and the homeowner is left with useless eyesore.  Can you imagine leasing a car where if you stopped paying the lease the dealer comes to your garage, removes the engine and cements the car to your garage floor? Well that’s the solar panel lease business model.  
 

Scam 2: I had a roof inspection on one of these homes.  It turns out roofers don’t install solar panels on roofs and solar panel companies aren’t good at roofing.  
 

Problems include causing leaks when improperly fastening solar panels to roofs or leaving insufficient space between the bottom of the panel and the top of the roof to service the roof tiles (clay / concrete tiles tend to come loose or break) 

 

Scam 3: people with solar panels are often paying crazy electric bills. Electricity in most of Arizona is a 1/5th what it is of California and so I would expect significantly lower electric bills. But one home with panels had bills in excess of $500 a month.  There’s no actual evidence solar works and as noted in this thread, the panels degrade over time. 
 

If you want solar, invest in a company that manages large commercial arrays of panels and sells electricity to utilities. Your investment should be 25 times your annual electric bill. Use the dividends and/or share appreciation to pay your electric bill: withdraw 4 percent annually from your investment.  If this investment can’t sustain itself to to cover your electric bills then you know even commercial solar isn’t practical.  
 

EVs are ethical.  Residential solar is not ethical.  

A $500/month electric bill with solar panels on the roof?  Amazing!

[Neonred 3,461]

7 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Yeah, it is interesting, the German carmakers actually focused on what a car is for, transportation.

What really bugs me is people that treat their cars like a dumpster.  My ex-wife and my wife's daughter fall into that category. 

 

Hop into the passenger seat and there is no place to put your feet.  Papers, food wrapers, old Starbucks cups etc.  Makes me sick.

 

At the begining of the pandemic my wife's daughter and family came down from Boston to live with us until the virus problem "blew over"... oh what a story for another time.  We decided to clean their Ford Explorer.  It was GROSS.  I asked when was the last time they washed and cleaned their 3 year old Explorer.  Uh, never.  And they have two toddlers so you can imagine what the back seats were like.

[Dashinka 23,375]

3 minutes ago, Neonred said:

What really bugs me is people that treat their cars like a dumpster.  My ex-wife and my wife's daughter fall into that category. 

 

Hop into the passenger seat and there is no place to put your feet.  Papers, food wrapers, old Starbucks cups etc.  Makes me sick.

 

At the begining of the pandemic my wife's daughter and family came down from Boston to live with us until the virus problem "blew over"... oh what a story for another time.  We decided to clean their Ford Explorer.  It was GROSS.  I asked when was the last time they washed and cleaned their 3 year old Explorer.  Uh, never.  And they have two toddlers so you can imagine what the back seats were like.

Run into a few of those folks myself.  Back in my high school days, I worked at my father's funeral home, and part of my job was keeping the cars clean.  Occasionally, one of the employees would ask me to wash a their car, and some of them were absolutely gross.

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,330]

4 hours ago, Dashinka said:

Run into a few of those folks myself.  Back in my high school days, I worked at my father's funeral home, and part of my job was keeping the cars clean.  Occasionally, one of the employees would ask me to wash a their car, and some of them were absolutely gross.

I have taken some cars in on trade that I was disgusted to pull into the trade in area. How some people live like that is beyond me 

[yuna628 9,542]

4 hours ago, Neonred said:

What really bugs me is people that treat their cars like a dumpster.  My ex-wife and my wife's daughter fall into that category. 

 

Hop into the passenger seat and there is no place to put your feet.  Papers, food wrapers, old Starbucks cups etc.  Makes me sick.

 

At the begining of the pandemic my wife's daughter and family came down from Boston to live with us until the virus problem "blew over"... oh what a story for another time.  We decided to clean their Ford Explorer.  It was GROSS.  I asked when was the last time they washed and cleaned their 3 year old Explorer.  Uh, never.  And they have two toddlers so you can imagine what the back seats were like.

My dad is like that. Every car he's ever had ends up looking a mess. As a salesman he practically lived out of his cars, and would he clean them? Nope. And then one day came the mouse! There's this guy on youtube that has car cleaning videos, it's weirdly therapeutic.

[beloved_dingo 1,939]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Neonred said:

You could move on down to Florida.  We don't have mountains here.  Already have plenty of agriculture and shopping malls too!

It always cracks me up when I've driven past the little "monument" in rural Florida marking the highest elevation in the state. It's a whopping 350 feet above sea level. 😂

[Neonred 3,461]

2 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

It always cracks me up when I've driven past the little "monument" in rural Florida marking the highest elevation in the state. It's a whopping 350 feet above sea level. 😂

I'm at my place in the Keys right now.  When we built, the builder brought in fill so that the land under the house would be 3' above sea level.

 

During hurricane Irma we had a 6' storm surge so there was 3' of water under the house (it's a stilt house for that very reason).

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,330]

2 hours ago, Neonred said:

I'm at my place in the Keys right now.  When we built, the builder brought in fill so that the land under the house would be 3' above sea level.

 

During hurricane Irma we had a 6' storm surge so there was 3' of water under the house (it's a stilt house for that very reason).

I retract my statement not wishing people ill will 

[Neonred 3,461]

10 minutes ago, Nature Boy 2.0 said:

I retract my statement not wishing people ill will 

When you coming down?

[TBoneTX 43,422]

7 hours ago, Neonred said:

When you coming down?

When he learns to spell?   

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

17 hours ago, Neonred said:

What really bugs me is people that treat their cars like a dumpster.  My ex-wife and my wife's daughter fall into that category. 

 

Hop into the passenger seat and there is no place to put your feet.  Papers, food wrapers, old Starbucks cups etc.  Makes me sick.

 

At the begining of the pandemic my wife's daughter and family came down from Boston to live with us until the virus problem "blew over"... oh what a story for another time.  We decided to clean their Ford Explorer.  It was GROSS.  I asked when was the last time they washed and cleaned their 3 year old Explorer.  Uh, never.  And they have two toddlers so you can imagine what the back seats were like.

Jump into my truck, and it's as pristine as it was on day one, 99% of the time.  She does the inside, I do the outside.  

[LIBrty4all 3,749]

17 hours ago, Mike E said:

 

EVs are ethical.  Residential solar is not ethical.  

I agree with most of what you post here, but I just cannot get  behind this statement.  I'd love to hear your support for this hypothesis.

[Dashinka 23,375]

4 hours ago, LIBrty4all said:

Jump into my truck, and it's as pristine as it was on day one, 99% of the time.  She does the inside, I do the outside.  

You haven’t trained her to also do the outside?