Master’s Degrees Are the Second Biggest Scam in Higher Education

[laylalex 7,293]

Quote

Last week, the Wall Street Journal published a troubling exposé on the crushing debt burdens that students accumulate while pursuing master’s degrees at elite universities in fields like drama and film, where the job prospects are limited and the chances of making enough to repay their debt are slim. Because it focused on MFA programs at Ivy League schools—one subject accumulated around $300,000 in loans pursuing screenwriting—the article rocketed around the creative class on Twitter. But it also pointed to a more fundamental, troubling development in the world of higher education: For colleges and universities, master’s degrees have essentially become an enormous moneymaking scheme, wherein the line between for-profit and nonprofit education has been utterly blurred. There are, of course, good programs as well as bad ones, but when you scope out, there is clearly a systemic problem.

https://slate.com/business/2021/07/masters-degrees-debt-loans-worth-it.html

 

Very interesting interview. I have several friends who did MFAs in film and TV at some of the biggest schools for those degrees (USC, Columbia, NYU) and only one of them actually landed a "real" job in the industry that makes decent money. The one who went to Columbia teaches high school English in Manhattan. The one who went to NYU ended up going to Wall Street, so I guess at least he can pay the loan back? Meanwhile most of the people I know in the business didn't get any formal education in it at all. 

 

PhD's I can see the value of, especially if you want to go into academia but also in other niche areas. My husband has "only" a Masters, which was fine at the time he got it in his field, but he is convinced he has been held back by not having a doctorate. But as a terminal degree I think a Masters is a great way to end up spending a lot of money quickly without a great path to paying it off. MBAs are probably an exception, but not always.

[TBoneTX 45,497]

In engineering fields, one can often (if not typically) go straight from a BS to a PhD, with an MS the intermediate stop for someone whose grades are marginal.

 

BS = we know what this is

MS = More of the Same

PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper

[Neonred 3,575]

Wow, things must have changed over the years.

 

Before I went to dental school I was a geology major and was in the Masters program at USC (the other one, Layla).

I got free tuition and a stipend.  For that I had to "teach" one or two (can't remember as it was so long ago) geology 101 labs each week.  

Was actually a lot of fun, and even got my own office.

 

I still remember some of the "dumb as a box of rocks" football players I had, and a couple of girls that said they would do "ANYTHING" if I would give them a passing grade!

Edited July 18, 2021 by Neonred

[carmel34 3,639]

Having spent my entire career in higher education, I only agree with some of the opinions expressed in the article.  There are many for-profit master's degrees that are not useful for employment purposes, but also many that are.  In some fields, to get a promotion or a higher paying job, a master's is a requirement.  This is particularly true in applied, professional fields such as an MBA, master's of accounting (for CPA), social work (necessary in most states for licensure), computer engineering, etc.  The problem in my opinion is that students are misinformed and do not think ahead and weigh the costs of the degree vs. the potential income.  This ROI calculation may appear to be common sense, but so many students do not understand what they are getting into with their limited knowledge of supply and demand.  Should the government do more regulation of these low or negative ROI master's degrees?  Or should the students be more responsible and accountable for their (sometimes very stupid) decisions?  My son in law did a law degree a few years back and piled up more than $200,000 in student loans, then couldn't find a full-time job as an attorney, so now he's a school teacher earning $60,000 a year.  That's on him for making the decision.  Yes, I agree that for-profit, online programs that are of low quality, should be under greater scrutiny, but there are many very helpful master's degrees with a great ROI that lead to much higher lifetime earnings.  So I disagree that all master's degrees should be stereotyped as scams.

Edited July 18, 2021 by carmel34

[Boiler 45,657]

So many jobs that never needed higher education at great cost now do for whatever reason. Seems sometimes a selection tool for hiring.

 

One easy solution would not be to have these weird rules about Student loans and bankruptcy.

[Dashinka 24,589]

7 hours ago, carmel34 said:

Having spent my entire career in higher education, I only agree with some of the opinions expressed in the article.  There are many for-profit master's degrees that are not useful for employment purposes, but also many that are.  In some fields, to get a promotion or a higher paying job, a master's is a requirement.  This is particularly true in applied, professional fields such as an MBA, master's of accounting (for CPA), social work (necessary in most states for licensure), computer engineering, etc.  The problem in my opinion is that students are misinformed and do not think ahead and weigh the costs of the degree vs. the potential income.  This ROI calculation may appear to be common sense, but so many students do not understand what they are getting into with their limited knowledge of supply and demand.  Should the government do more regulation of these low or negative ROI master's degrees?  Or should the students be more responsible and accountable for their (sometimes very stupid) decisions?  My son in law did a law degree a few years back and piled up more than $200,000 in student loans, then couldn't find a full-time job as an attorney, so now he's a school teacher earning $60,000 a year.  That's on him for making the decision.  Yes, I agree that for-profit, online programs that are of low quality, should be under greater scrutiny, but there are many very helpful master's degrees with a great ROI that lead to much higher lifetime earnings.  So I disagree that all master's degrees should be stereotyped as scams.

The only thing I disagree with you is that this is all about for profit programs.  There is a lot of mis-information out there in all venues of higher education.

[Boiler 45,657]

I do not see how it can keep going, sooner of later there has to be a clear out, perhaps when Student loans are restricted.

[seekingthetruth 1,248]

3 hours ago, Dashinka said:

The only thing I disagree with you is that this is all about for profit programs.  There is a lot of mis-information out there in all venues of higher education.

What I don't get is how these wealthy universities can run for profit programs when they are supposed to be non-profit and pay no taxes?  They have billions in the endowment funds yet the tuitions for all programs keep sky-rocketing.

 

Scroll down this list to get to the details.

 

https://thebestschools.org/features/richest-universities-endowments-generosity-research/

[yuna628 9,680]

Well the husband knows plenty of persons with masters that don't seem to be able to find their way out of a paper bag. But for what it's worth he does have a degree education that we are still paying for, but it has given him many opportunities in the United States. I think he will probably teach eventually, and that's what his instructors had wanted him to do, back when they suggested him to go for a PhD. It might have been a nice thing to obtain, but I think he can teach just fine without it.

 

18 minutes ago, seekingthetruth said:

What I don't get is how these wealthy universities can run for profit programs when they are supposed to be non-profit and pay no taxes?  They have billions in the endowment funds yet the tuitions for all programs keep sky-rocketing.

 

Scroll down this list to get to the details.

 

https://thebestschools.org/features/richest-universities-endowments-generosity-research/

It takes a lot to run a university, pay (and sometimes underpay the staff), buy the latest tech (costs have skyrocketed), and of course pump most of the billions into sports programs. Some colleges are getting a massive dump of money this year from 'covid relief' funds and let me tell you they are running with it. Husband is being instructed to spend a scary amount this year. It always amazes me how some colleges can bleed money on ridiculous items but do not have the finances to make simple repairs or improvements for staff.

[seekingthetruth 1,248]

51 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

It always amazes me how some colleges can bleed money on ridiculous items but do not have the finances to make simple repairs or improvements for staff.

Or reduce tuitions!

[Dashinka 24,589]

9 hours ago, yuna628 said:

Well the husband knows plenty of persons with masters that don't seem to be able to find their way out of a paper bag. But for what it's worth he does have a degree education that we are still paying for, but it has given him many opportunities in the United States. I think he will probably teach eventually, and that's what his instructors had wanted him to do, back when they suggested him to go for a PhD. It might have been a nice thing to obtain, but I think he can teach just fine without it.

 

It takes a lot to run a university, pay (and sometimes underpay the staff), buy the latest tech (costs have skyrocketed), and of course pump most of the billions into sports programs. Some colleges are getting a massive dump of money this year from 'covid relief' funds and let me tell you they are running with it. Husband is being instructed to spend a scary amount this year. It always amazes me how some colleges can bleed money on ridiculous items but do not have the finances to make simple repairs or improvements for staff.

I often wonder how many university counselors suggest to a student that they might be better served by not pursuing a very expensive bachelors, or higher level program?

[seekingthetruth 1,248]

20 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I often wonder how many university counselors suggest to a student that they might be better served by not pursuing a very expensive bachelors, or higher level program?

I'm a fan of Mike Rowe.  I first saw the WSJ article about Columbia when he posted it.

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe

 

 

[Dashinka 24,589]

14 minutes ago, seekingthetruth said:

I'm a fan of Mike Rowe.  I first saw the WSJ article about Columbia when he posted it.

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe

 

 

Mike Rowe is great.  I know a lot of folks that said the heck with college, and are now earning six figures doing things like plumbing, or HVAC and never accumulated massive debt along the way.

[yuna628 9,680]

5 hours ago, Dashinka said:

I often wonder how many university counselors suggest to a student that they might be better served by not pursuing a very expensive bachelors, or higher level program?

I like to think that the average counselor working for a college is going to have the interest of the student at heart, maybe there are some that are bad but I don't think all of them. My husband knew what he wanted when he entered university and there certainly wasn't anyone that was going to change his mind. The problem was there just wasn't a snowball's chance to get a job in his area with those skills, but plenty of other places around the world that would want it. If I'd had the money back in the day I'd have pursued the degree in art I wanted. Likely wouldn't have put it to job use, but can't say for certain, as there's plenty of online entrepreneurship these days. My uncle did the art degree, and it weirdly came in useful for a completely different career. I'd strongly encourage kids these days to try community and technical colleges... the problem is that some of these places are crumbling and don't have support they need. They are having to complete with the bright shiny object of universities that offer the latest, greatest, and flashy experience. Look at it this way - would you want to take a rusted Dodge RAM for a test drive, or a sexy Bugatti? Chances are a kid has no clue what they actually want but the here and now and happenin' looks interesting. Others might not want to be a HVAC mechanic or plumber - where do they fit in?

[Nature Boy 2.0 8,376]

On 7/18/2021 at 6:17 AM, Neonred said:

Wow, things must have changed over the years.

 

Before I went to dental school I was a geology major and was in the Masters program at USC (the other one, Layla).

I got free tuition and a stipend.  For that I had to "teach" one or two (can't remember as it was so long ago) geology 101 labs each week.  

Was actually a lot of fun, and even got my own office.

 

I still remember some of the "dumb as a box of rocks" football players I had, and a couple of girls that said they would do "ANYTHING" if I would give them a passing grade!

well did they get As