Dual citizenship conflicting with Oath of Allegiance

[USC4SPOUSE 506]

I think you’re overthinking it. There’s no harm in that. 
the way I understand it the US does not mention or recognize dual citizenship. To the US you are a US citizen. If you hold any other nationalities, they just sort of look the other way. 
 

[Daisy.Chain 317]

The US naturalization oath is very clear...you RENOUNCE other allegiances. My husband had to think hard before taking it. Those words are hard to say, and as a Christian, he wasn't willing to swear to something that wasn't truthful. He decided to do it.

 

He never had to hand over his previous passport from another country etc/hasn't been an issue other than that he pays the Us tourist travel tax ($10) when traveling internationally because he has to fly IN on his US passport. But it is something you will morally have to decide for yourself.

[Daisy.Chain 317]

Also, our plans are for any future kids we have to be dual citizens. The US doesn't recognize (or prohibit) dual-citizenship. But when naturalizing, I think there is no other way to interpret the oath than what it says (renounce all allegiances etc).

[JER2020 28]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:55 AM, Timona said:

 

I think you are taking it way too deep as I had already mentioned to @JER2020 in another thread.

As already mentioned, some countries allow dual citizenship. Which country are you from? We can start from there.

 

I dont know what a true Kenyan means but you need to take it down a notch. Its a forum and I shared with a broader audience to hear other peoples thoughts, not the same one that chases me down the threads lol. You already shared your opinion once on a different thread as you well said, thank you,

 

On 5/25/2021 at 9:02 PM, USC4SPOUSE said:

I think you’re overthinking it. There’s no harm in that. 
the way I understand it the US does not mention or recognize dual citizenship. To the US you are a US citizen. If you hold any other nationalities, they just sort of look the other way. 
 

Good point, it 100% is speaking to that aspect, the wording just makes it feel deeper lol Thank you.

Edited May 27, 2021 by JER2020

[JER2020 28]

On 5/25/2021 at 9:37 PM, Daisy.Chain said:

The US naturalization oath is very clear...you RENOUNCE other allegiances. My husband had to think hard before taking it. Those words are hard to say, and as a Christian, he wasn't willing to swear to something that wasn't truthful. He decided to do it.

 

He never had to hand over his previous passport from another country etc/hasn't been an issue other than that he pays the Us tourist travel tax ($10) when traveling internationally because he has to fly IN on his US passport. But it is something you will morally have to decide for yourself.

I am a Christian myself and appreciate you understanding and sharing your experience. As you said one does have to give it thought because words have meaning and weight. We're not all the same, but there's a reason why USCIS accommodates a few revisions to the oath for the sake of peace of mind of the applicant and clear conscience.  Spain does not recognize that renunciation so to them it has no effect. As someone just said, it just means to the US you are only a US citizen. I have a feeling one day this will be modified, in a near future and even be made optional.

[JER2020 28]

On 5/25/2021 at 9:53 AM, retheem said:

@Timonareply to this like a fellow Kenyan lol

Do you mind me asking how does a Kenyan respond to questions?

[Daisy.Chain 317]

9 minutes ago, JER2020 said:

I am a Christian myself and appreciate you understanding and sharing your experience. As you said one does have to give it thought because words have meaning and weight. We're not all the same, but there's a reason why USCIS accommodates a few revisions to the oath for the sake of peace of mind of the applicant and clear conscience.  Spain does not recognize that renunciation so to them it has no effect. As someone just said, it just means to the US you are only a US citizen. I have a feeling one day this will be modified, in a near future and even be made optional.

Well...it depends on how seriously you take your promise. I only see one way to interpret:

"I  hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"

 

 

Now, PRACTICALLY speaking, I've never heard of the "entirely renouncing" being ENFORCED, which makes me think it's a personal decision!

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Daisy.Chain

[JER2020 28]

On 5/25/2021 at 4:05 PM, ajomr said:

Hi all, thanks so much for your replies.

Just to be clear:

1. I have no debate as to whether I want dual citizenship or not. I intend to maintain dual citizenship and I know for sure that it is perfectly fine, legal, etc with respects to policy with both Israel and the United States. So no doubts there.
2. I'm pretty confident, given the replies to this post and also from my online research, that taking the oath as written will not affect my Israeli citizenship and most likely everything will be fine and I'll be able to keep both citizenships. Although the oath text does seem like it is negating my Israeli citizenship, it will not have any affect.

My only question is whether anyone knows of cases where someone has requested to modify the oath text so that it doesn't sound like you are giving up an existing citizenship.

From what I see, it is possible to request modifications for certain circumstances (as I mentioned in original post) but I'm curious whether anyone knows of cases where modifications where made to accommodate dual citizenship.

 

I know I sound like I'm being a pain in the butt, and after everything is said and done, I'll probably just accept the oath as is and be done with it

But if it's perfectly fine to adjust it, I'd rather go that route. 

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in the future  there won't be some crazy administration running the country and deciding "hey you took an oath that you renounce your citizenship to all other countries, so you're in violation of your oath".

That's all I'm saying... 🦔

Hey, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have been working through this dilemma myself. I think we understand the admin side of it, but its the fact you give your word importance. An oath is an oath, for those who just want a US passport at all costs and don't care what they have to say to get it, different story and I respect that.

 

As you well said, an oath is binding, and if in the future an administration wants to hold you to your oath, who can say that it wont happen? Its a concern based in fear and thats where the problem came in. I had to ask God to give me peace about it, whether it is to take it or to just cancel my N400 application and call it a day.

 

I dont like the line about renouncing and abjuring to any sovereignty to which I am subject to. I wish they would specify it is talking about the nations lol. It is just too overbroad. 

 

I will probably ask to wave the bearing of arms, I dont mind non-combatant service. The work of national importance under civilian direction is crazy too because that could be just anyone in the private sector with a project that government votes that is of national importance and then I HAVE to serve to it. Just crazy.

[JER2020 28]

4 minutes ago, Daisy.Chain said:

Well...it depends on how seriously you take your promise. I only see one way to interpret:

"I  hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"

 

 

Now, PRACTICALLY speaking, I've never heard of the "entirely renouncing" being ENFORCED, which makes me think it's a personal decision!

 

Yes so renunciation cannot be accomplished by just an oath. For instance, in Spain, if I wanted to renounce, there is an entire process I would have to follow and even stand before a judge that will dictate on my case and strip me of that nationality. This oath is only for the purposes of US law and does not require for you to show proof of renouncing to anything. Just accept that while in the US you will be only recognized by the government and its laws, as a US citizen. They also hope that you  will remain loyal and be loyal primarily to the US. Anything USCIS related, I am sure you're familiar with the nature of all their questions, they are heavily political and anti-communist. So this is their main motivation in making you take that oath, to protect the foundation on which the US was built and if you intend to become naturalized, they hope you will renounce to allegiance to a communist/socialist  nation you may be coming from.

[Timona 3,943]

1 hour ago, JER2020 said:

I dont know what a true Kenyan means but you need to take it down a notch. Its a forum and I shared with a broader audience to hear other peoples thoughts, not the same one that chases me down the threads lol. You already shared your opinion once on a different thread as you well said, thank you,

 

Good point, it 100% is speaking to that aspect, the wording just makes it feel deeper lol Thank you.

 

I was responding to the OP of that particular thread when I saw you joined OP's thread and had just posted slightly above. So I just mentioned you. I was not chasing you nor replying to you directly.

No offense taken, nonetheless. 

[Savva 222]

Here is the OFFICIAL SOURCE (US Department of State) and everything you need to know about dual citizenship, hope it helps

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html

[ajomr 0]

6 minutes ago, Savva said:

Here is the OFFICIAL SOURCE (US Department of State) and everything you need to know about dual citizenship, hope it helps

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html

😄 this info actually confirms my discomfort with the language of the oath:

 

from first line in paragraph 3:

"Dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country."

 

but I gather from the comments here that no one so far has asked to modify the oath text based on this, so I won't make a fuss about it and just take the oath as is.

 

[Sartre 123]

On 5/24/2021 at 10:54 PM, ajomr said:

Towards the end of the N-400 form — Part 12, item 47  — it asks whether the applicant is willing to take the "Oath of Allegiance" at the oath ceremony.

Part of the oath is declaring that I will "...absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been subject or citizen."

I'm a citizen of another country and I know for certain that it is perfectly fine with both countries to be a dual citizen, and neither country will require that I relinquish either citizenship.

I've found a couple of sources online saying that even though the oath does seem to very clearly state that you're basically giving up any prior or current citizenship with any other country, that this will not affect my current citizenship with the country where I'm from.

However, I do feel very uneasy with taking an oath with this language.

Firstly, if I don't have to, it is actually very important to me to keep my foreign citizenship.

Secondly, it very much sounds like I'm being untruthful when taking the oath, if I do plan on having dual citizenship. 

 

I have read that it is possible to request to change the language of the oath in some ways, but those seem to pertain to other things (like alternative text to saying "so help me god").

 

I'm wondering if anyone who has dual citizenship and has gone through this, or knows with a very high degree of certainty can advise.

 

Thanks!

 

My spouse is a citizen of three continents (European, North American and South American) and has absolutely no problems swearing allegiance to each country.  I am a citizen of two countries and soon I will be a citizen of three countries.  How my spouse deals with the dilemma is by entering each country of citizenship with the passport of that country (required by law) and at that point he is loyal to that country.  The only time it would present a conundrum is if there were major conflicts (war, skirmishes, etc) between the countries. Without sounding relativistic the love and allegiance for each country are always present no matter where my spouse is, but the laws and allegiance  are  followed wherever my spouse is living.  I would not ponder the issue too much or be perplexed by the thought of being loyal to two or more countries.  Follow your responsibilities you have for each country well while in that country. 

[Sartre 123]

16 minutes ago, Sartre said:

My spouse is a citizen of three continents (European, North American and South American) and has absolutely no problems swearing allegiance to each country.  I am a citizen of two countries and soon I will be a citizen of three countries.  How my spouse deals with the dilemma is by entering each country of citizenship with the passport of that country (required by law) and at that point he is loyal to that country.  The only time it would present a conundrum is if there were major conflicts (war, skirmishes, etc) between the countries. Without sounding relativistic the love and allegiance for each country are always present no matter where my spouse is, but the laws and allegiance  are  followed wherever my spouse is living.  I would not ponder the issue too much or be perplexed by the thought of being loyal to two or more countries.  Follow your responsibilities you have for each country well while in that country. 

I meant to add the discussion on the Supreme Court rulings on dual citizenship.  Basically a person can be loyal to two or more countries. The link below will provide some guidance to what you are seeking and also steer you to additional research.

 

https://citizenpath.com/dual-citizenship-in-the-us/

 

[Sartre 123]

On 5/25/2021 at 12:15 PM, ajomr said:

Hi Timona,

Thanks for your guidance on this.

I have Israeli citizenship (full disclosure: not to turn this into a political issue, I was hesitant to write which country I'm from especially due to the recent events. I feel depressed and honestly rather ashamed of what is happening there 😕)

That being said, I prefer not to give up my Israeli citizenship, and I know for certain that it is perfectly fine with both countries that I hold this dual citizenship.

I know I'm probably reading too much into this oath thing, and what I found from my online research has said this, more or less.

But with the future being unknown, I'd rather not make declarations that I know are not true, or declarations of renouncing citizenship to Israel.

I'm convinced that I'm not the first to deal with this dilemma, so I'm wondering if there are any ways to work around this without creating too much complication for myself.

Do you realize the United States Supreme Court ruled on dual citizenship and why Congress or the State Department cannot take away ones citizenship based on an Israeli, Afroyin versus Rusk.  Just google it and you will be put at ease.