More Marriage Evidence Needed?

[Steve Mushero 0]

Hi - I'm American and live with my Chinese wife in China - we've been married for 10 years, hopefully moving to USA this year but for evidence we really only have:

* Marriage Cert from 2010

* Child birth CRBA from 2012

 

In China, we own no property and it's uncommon/hard to have joint lease or bank accounts, so we have little evidence of that despite living together more than 10 years.

 

But given the 10 years of marriage and a child, do we really need more, i.e. do I need to get affidavits or find ways to show we've been sharing rent or school costs, etc.?  We may have a Chinese Hukou that shows us married, too, but that's similar to a marriage certificate and perhaps not that useful.

 

Thanks!

 

[retheem 553]

2 hours ago, Steve Mushero said:

Hi - I'm American and live with my Chinese wife in China - we've been married for 10 years, hopefully moving to USA this year but for evidence we really only have:

* Marriage Cert from 2010

* Child birth CRBA from 2012

 

In China, we own no property and it's uncommon/hard to have joint lease or bank accounts, so we have little evidence of that despite living together more than 10 years.

 

But given the 10 years of marriage and a child, do we really need more, i.e. do I need to get affidavits or find ways to show we've been sharing rent or school costs, etc.?  We may have a Chinese Hukou that shows us married, too, but that's similar to a marriage certificate and perhaps not that useful.

 

Thanks!

 

A child is just evidence both of you are fertile, that's all. More evidence please

[Nitas_man 3,100]

3 hours ago, Steve Mushero said:

Hi - I'm American and live with my Chinese wife in China - we've been married for 10 years, hopefully moving to USA this year but for evidence we really only have:

* Marriage Cert from 2010

* Child birth CRBA from 2012

 

In China, we own no property and it's uncommon/hard to have joint lease or bank accounts, so we have little evidence of that despite living together more than 10 years.

 

But given the 10 years of marriage and a child, do we really need more, i.e. do I need to get affidavits or find ways to show we've been sharing rent or school costs, etc.?  We may have a Chinese Hukou that shows us married, too, but that's similar to a marriage certificate and perhaps not that useful.

 

Thanks!

 

Generally you need evidence that you have lived together at the same location all this time.  Documents that demonstrate you share an address?

[Steve Mushero 0]

3 minutes ago, Nitas_man said:

Generally you need evidence that you have lived together at the same location all this time.  Documents that demonstrate you share an address?

Sadly, these don't really exist - there aren't really joint leases in China and utilities are in the landlords name (very common so you don't screw them up); all payments are digital, receipts have no addresses, so very hard to have docs.  There are also China household registration rules whose address is never where you live (just as companies registered addresses are almost never where their offices are).

 

Maybe finding some docs or mailings to her at the address (in Chinese, of course, invoking the need for certified translations for things like address labels).  We have endless deliveries and may be her tax filings match up, so looking for those.

But given we've been married 10 years and have a 9 year old kid, do people really worry about fraud after such a time?  Might be easier to get a couple affidavits.

[Crazy Cat 39,207]

3 hours ago, Steve Mushero said:

Sadly, these don't really exist - there aren't really joint leases in China and utilities are in the landlords name (very common so you don't screw them up); all payments are digital, receipts have no addresses, so very hard to have docs.  There are also China household registration rules whose address is never where you live (just as companies registered addresses are almost never where their offices are).

 

Maybe finding some docs or mailings to her at the address (in Chinese, of course, invoking the need for certified translations for things like address labels).  We have endless deliveries and may be her tax filings match up, so looking for those.

But given we've been married 10 years and have a 9 year old kid, do people really worry about fraud after such a time?  Might be easier to get a couple affidavits.

 Translations can be done by any person who is fluent in both languages. The requirement for spousal visa is not just to be married a length of time, but to submit evidence of a bona fide relationship.  Do you have a current resident document showing both names?

Edited March 16, 2021 by Lucky Cat

[Nitas_man 3,100]

3 hours ago, Steve Mushero said:

Sadly, these don't really exist - there aren't really joint leases in China and utilities are in the landlords name (very common so you don't screw them up); all payments are digital, receipts have no addresses, so very hard to have docs.  There are also China household registration rules whose address is never where you live (just as companies registered addresses are almost never where their offices are).

 

Maybe finding some docs or mailings to her at the address (in Chinese, of course, invoking the need for certified translations for things like address labels).  We have endless deliveries and may be her tax filings match up, so looking for those.

But given we've been married 10 years and have a 9 year old kid, do people really worry about fraud after such a time?  Might be easier to get a couple affidavits.

Your tax returns show your are married correct?

 

Neither of you share any bank, credit, phone plan, or any form of insurance?  

There is no health plan, public or otherwise, that lists the members of your household?

 

School enrollment records with both parents’ name?  If something happened at school how would they find or contact either of you?

 

I find it difficult to believe that property owners in China lease properties to families with no record of who actually lives there or is leasing it.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Nitas_man

[Steve Mushero 0]

11 minutes ago, Nitas_man said:

Your tax returns show your are married correct?

 

Neither of you share any bank, credit, phone plan, or any form of insurance?  

There is no health plan, public or otherwise, that lists the members of your household?

 

School enrollment records with both parents’ name?  If something happened at school how would they find or contact either of you?

 

I find it difficult to believe that property owners in China lease properties to families with no record of who actually lives there or is leasing it.  

Thanks and I've since found many good guides on this and indeed have my wife named in my will and life insurance policies, plus 401K, and LOTS of travel and things together.  Also the school info is a good idea and doable.

 

And we did file US taxes jointly one year, which I can use, but not afterward as there was no need. She also had SSN for that, but since expired, as no longer allowed for foreign spouses not living in USA. Some folks have mentioned having an SSN helps.

 

In China, there is no realsharing of bank accounts, phone plans, insurance, etc. type of things, by anyone as far as I know; very 'individual' place Though she might be the guarantor on my phone, so I do need to check that.

 

China leases usually to one person, in part due to how taxes work, but standard city lease (used by most people) has one line for that.  Who actually lives where and has license to live where is very complicated in China over decades of history, migrants to city, where city services are accessed, so they are usually all over the place and often not related to where people actually live (one parent i know bought 'apartment' near the school they wanted her go to, and officially live there; I doubt the kid has ever seen it).  Now, where foreigners live is very carefully tracked, so I have that in clear forms; it's that there is no record of where my wife lives that is the issue.

 

 

 

[Crazy Cat 39,207]

4 minutes ago, Steve Mushero said:

She also had SSN for that, but since expired, as no longer allowed for foreign spouses not living in USA.

What does this mean?  SSNs are issued for life.

[Nitas_man 3,100]

25 minutes ago, Steve Mushero said:

Thanks and I've since found many good guides on this and indeed have my wife named in my will and life insurance policies, plus 401K, and LOTS of travel and things together.  Also the school info is a good idea and doable.

 

And we did file US taxes jointly one year, which I can use, but not afterward as there was no need. She also had SSN for that, but since expired, as no longer allowed for foreign spouses not living in USA. Some folks have mentioned having an SSN helps.

 

In China, there is no realsharing of bank accounts, phone plans, insurance, etc. type of things, by anyone as far as I know; very 'individual' place Though she might be the guarantor on my phone, so I do need to check that.

 

China leases usually to one person, in part due to how taxes work, but standard city lease (used by most people) has one line for that.  Who actually lives where and has license to live where is very complicated in China over decades of history, migrants to city, where city services are accessed, so they are usually all over the place and often not related to where people actually live (one parent i know bought 'apartment' near the school they wanted her go to, and officially live there; I doubt the kid has ever seen it).  Now, where foreigners live is very carefully tracked, so I have that in clear forms; it's that there is no record of where my wife lives that is the issue.

 

 

 

SSN’s don’t expire.  They’re issued for life

 

Since she has a SS number although you can’t join assets in China, you can in the US

Didn’t ask if you filed jointly, asked if you filed married.  Your filing status is a reference point


 

 

[SteveInBostonI130 3,319]

How are you living/working in China?  I assume you have residency status there?  Did you have to prove to Chinese authorities that you are married to get that status?  Does your work documentation show where you live?  All these things could be used to show that you are living with your wife.

[Nitas_man 3,100]

The real issue is showing intent to establish US residence by building US ties then demonstrating how you will meet the affidavit of support requirements for your household size.  Three ways:

 

1.  Return before her interview and establish a job and residence, qualify on income

2.  Qualify on assets, easily convertable / cash equivalent

3.  Have a joint sponsor file an affidavit

 

There’s a speed bump proving your US residence or intent to establish US residence, burden on the USC.

[Steve Mushero 0]

9 hours ago, Lucky Cat said:

What does this mean?  SSNs are issued for life.

Not in this case and there was a legal change in how non-residents were treated, with a required renewal for some classes last year, and my wife no longer qualifies, so her SSN/ITIN expired; I was surprised, too.  Of course, it's not really a SSN but an ITIN, as they don't get social security, but used the same way for filing tax forms.

 

We filed jointly a decade ago but not afterward as was not tax-advantageous, so she need not file, thus it expires, via:

 

"As of 31 December 2020, more than one million ITINs that fall into the following three categories are set to expire:

1. ITINs that have not been used on a US federal tax return at least once in the last three consecutive years.
2. ITINs issued before 2013 with middle digits 88.
3. ITINs with middle digits 90, 91, 92, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, or 99 that were assigned before 2013 and have not already been renewed."
    

From:https://www.ecovis.com/global/non-resident-aliens-beware-your-us-itin-may-be-set-to-expire/

[Steve Mushero 0]

9 hours ago, Nitas_man said:

SSN’s don’t expire.  They’re issued for life

 

Since she has a SS number although you can’t join assets in China, you can in the US

Didn’t ask if you filed jointly, asked if you filed married.  Your filing status is a reference point


 

 

She had ITIN (which is SSN for non-American/Green card holders) but we no longer file jointly as no need for her and no tax advantage, so her ITIN expired.  We filed one year jointly, then amended to separately for various very complex international rules on holdings (as we have many offshore companies & investments, and in China).  Since then, there has been no reason for her to file.

 

Just getting the ITIN was a pain as not that many non-residents seem to have them and the Social Security offices got quite confused (in Maine) on the process; we had to shuttle between IRS & SS offices with calls between them to get screens & docs so they could issue it, about 2010.

[HRQX 4,145]

15 minutes ago, Steve Mushero said:

it's not really a SSN but an ITIN

Using the proper terminology from the get-go is important. SSNs never expire. ITINs do expire. SSN is issued by the SSA. ITIN is issued by the IRS.

Valid Range for SSN:
001-01-0001 through 665-99-9999
667-01-0001 through 899-99-9999
750-01-0001 through 763-99-9999
764-01-0001 through 899-99-9999

 

Valid Range for ITIN:
900-70-0000 through 999-88-9999
900-90-0000 through 999-92-9999
900-94-0000 through 999-99-9999

[Steve Mushero 0]

9 hours ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

How are you living/working in China?  I assume you have residency status there?  Did you have to prove to Chinese authorities that you are married to get that status?  Does your work documentation show where you live?  All these things could be used to show that you are living with your wife.

Thanks and yes, have residency here though on work (as if you have spouse-driven residency, cannot work) but I'm listed on her Chinese household registration which is very official (drives all things in China) and will use that.

 

And yes, our employment contracts show our address I'm fairly sure and we'll use those.  Thanks.