Harvard professor: U.S. should ban 'authoritarian' homeschooling by Christian parents

[Dashinka 25,898]

Harvard professor: U.S. should ban 'authoritarian' homeschooling by Christian parents
 

A Harvard professor says U.S. officials may want to consider a ban on homeschooling due to its “authoritarian” risks often taken by conservative Christian families.

Elizabeth Bartholet of Harvard Law school discussed the issue for the May/June 2020 issue of Harvard Magazine.

Ms. Bartholet, a public interest professor and Faculty Director of Harvard Law School’s Child Advocacy Program (CAP), warned writer  Erin O’Donnell of  “extreme religious ideologues” among roughly 2 million U.S. homeschoolers.
 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/23/elizabeth-bartholet-harvard-professor-mulls-homesc/

[Randyandyuni 2,682]

This one is actually funny, John Harvard was a Puritan minister, I would think authoritarian conservatism is prett much defined in that job description

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

Freedom is authoritarianism! Government controlling you is the only way to be free!

 

Sounds like desperation. Coercive moves only hasten their ideological demise. They should've learned that from the very religions they're bashing.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds

[Dashinka 25,898]

1 minute ago, Burnt Reynolds said:

Freedom is authoritarianism! Government controlling you is the only way to be free!

 

Sounds like desperation. Coercive moves only hasten their ideological demise. They should've learned that from the very religions they're bashing.

 

 

My thoughts as well.  I also wonder of this professor’s ulterior motives, but that is just my opinion (we need to keep the indoctrination moving forward).  

[yuna628 9,880]

Some thoughts from one who was raised under such doctrines.

 

There are these days some very excellent parents that homeschool their children. They are bright, disciplined students, and their parents have enough education to see to it that they are not lacking in any area. Some of them are more secular-minded in their curriculum and some are definitely religious based. Some are motivated for different reasons and yes some are motivated by the things the Prof. claims. Studies from past and former students do highlight there are great problems in the movement, perhaps as an overwhelming hands-off approach to parenting in general and a lack of interest in actual teaching the child has crept in, and thus computer assisted teaching, unschooling, and co-op schooling has become popular instead of the traditional hardcore book-learning. I am of the older generation of which there was still plenty of problems. The main ones are:

 

1) lack of oversight - the parents were hands off and didn't teach, the kid wanted to learn with desperation and this resulted in the child finding any way they could to gain knowledge and basically 'self teach'. There was no structure or order to learning, and huge gaps in education. You will find a lot of us older generation basically are 'self taught'. Our parents were trying to do right by us, but really weren't into the whole teaching thing... all the while complaining how badly public schools are leaving kids behind, they didn't realize they were falling into the same trap.

 

2) these huge gaps in education became clear once the child became an adult. Studies show that homeschool students may have good affinity for reading and writing and a desire to learn at higher levels, but once they reach a higher level find they have been left far behind. However if they catch up? We can be very impressive compared to our peers.

 

3) Lack of math and science skills. This is an especially difficult one, because some parents do try to teach the kids these, but find it may be over their heads and do not want to accept help elsewhere. Other parents don't want the kids learning these things at all, and depending on the curriculum used very little in these areas are ever spoken about.

 

4) Homeschooling in the right structure can be VERY helpful to kids with learning disabilities. However some homeschoolers struggle with parents that don't want to acknowledge them or try to find ways to overcome such disabilities.

 

5) Social skills. Unless you are of the younger generation that is more focused on ensuring on social skills and participating in activities, many of us have problems in these areas. We used to be looked on with grave scorn. Honestly we don't tend to care about it too much, but some do struggle badly.

 

6) Abuse: studies show it's there and the stories from kids coming out of it are horrible. Because there is little oversight this causes great concern from those who don't understand the movement and lump everyone into the same pot. Still, there is not a lot people can do to stop these abuses which range from physical/sexual to mental and emotional. There is long lasting damage well into adulthood, which has led to suicide and severe difficulty adjusting to life outside the bubble. Any pushback against these abuses has caused the homeschool lobby to employ some hardcore tactics and lawsuits out of fear. They don't want to admit it happens or take any responsibility for oversight to make it better.

 

Like everything in life, homeschooling can be very effective if used correctly. Do it wrong, and you will likely not see the pain it causes behind the scenes until it's too late.

 

 

[Dashinka 25,898]

6 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Some thoughts from one who was raised under such doctrines.

 

There are these days some very excellent parents that homeschool their children. They are bright, disciplined students, and their parents have enough education to see to it that they are not lacking in any area. Some of them are more secular-minded in their curriculum and some are definitely religious based. Some are motivated for different reasons and yes some are motivated by the things the Prof. claims. Studies from past and former students do highlight there are great problems in the movement, perhaps as an overwhelming hands-off approach to parenting in general and a lack of interest in actual teaching the child has crept in, and thus computer assisted teaching, unschooling, and co-op schooling has become popular instead of the traditional hardcore book-learning. I am of the older generation of which there was still plenty of problems. The main ones are:

 

1) lack of oversight - the parents were hands off and didn't teach, the kid wanted to learn with desperation and this resulted in the child finding any way they could to gain knowledge and basically 'self teach'. There was no structure or order to learning, and huge gaps in education. You will find a lot of us older generation basically are 'self taught'. Our parents were trying to do right by us, but really weren't into the whole teaching thing... all the while complaining how badly public schools are leaving kids behind, they didn't realize they were falling into the same trap.

 

2) these huge gaps in education became clear once the child became an adult. Studies show that homeschool students may have good affinity for reading and writing and a desire to learn at higher levels, but once they reach a higher level find they have been left far behind. However if they catch up? We can be very impressive compared to our peers.

 

3) Lack of math and science skills. This is an especially difficult one, because some parents do try to teach the kids these, but find it may be over their heads and do not want to accept help elsewhere. Other parents don't want the kids learning these things at all, and depending on the curriculum used very little in these areas are ever spoken about.

 

4) Homeschooling in the right structure can be VERY helpful to kids with learning disabilities. However some homeschoolers struggle with parents that don't want to acknowledge them or try to find ways to overcome such disabilities.

 

5) Social skills. Unless you are of the younger generation that is more focused on ensuring on social skills and participating in activities, many of us have problems in these areas. We used to be looked on with grave scorn. Honestly we don't tend to care about it too much, but some do struggle badly.

 

6) Abuse: studies show it's there and the stories from kids coming out of it are horrible. Because there is little oversight this causes great concern from those who don't understand the movement and lump everyone into the same pot. Still, there is not a lot people can do to stop these abuses which range from physical/sexual to mental and emotional. There is long lasting damage well into adulthood, which has led to suicide and severe difficulty adjusting to life outside the bubble. Any pushback against these abuses has caused the homeschool lobby to employ some hardcore tactics and lawsuits out of fear. They don't want to admit it happens or take any responsibility for oversight to make it better.

 

Like everything in life, homeschooling can be very effective if used correctly. Do it wrong, and you will likely not see the pain it causes behind the scenes until it's too late.

 

 

Couldn’t you say exactly the same things about public schools and public school teachers?

[yuna628 9,880]

Just now, Dashinka said:

Couldn’t you say exactly the same things about public schools and public school teachers?

To a degree. But I would say that both systems need severe help. We were dirt poor and before computers. My mom had little interest in teaching me, I had a learning disorder, and taught myself. I could see my school books were lacking critical info and would dive deeply into any 'real' info I could find upon chances I got. My parent's position on which religious doctrine of the month to follow changed regularly, and there were huge gaps in curriculum which I had to catch up on as an adult. 

 

For the public school system I'd say there are some of the same problems, but there are good teachers are trying to help these kids but losing them in a system where there is not much hope. The parents are going to be hands off too; but not just in education - in everything. Then you've got inner-city violence and poverty which complicate things. A homeschool kid's life is going to revolve around that education almost 24-7, especially if the parents are very involved in the religious aspect of it. There will be no exposure to other children, in fact they may rarely get outside the house. Girls will be told their only purpose is for keeping a home, and boys will receive little guidance from their father. Children may have trouble actually having the innocence and fun of a child, and will have a difficult time relating to others. Unschooling is even worse. There are a few kind of 'hippie' sects that operate in the same way.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

6 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

Couldn’t you say exactly the same things about public schools and public school teachers?

You could. In fact, my short stint of home school was far better than my other 11 elementary years in public school. At least my mother knew how to deal with ADHD. My teachers basically isolated me from class (won't describe it here) because I'd not sit still, causing me to lash out at them. My daughter goes to a charter school with a separate curriculum with mandatory parental involvement, so our transition to home school for this Wuhan virus hysteria was for the most part seamless. Nonetheless, the curriculum is closely monitored by parents, and even though its very liberal, they are cognizant about where to draw the line. 

 

At any rate, this stuff has little to do with the premise of the topic. There are too many motivated authoritarians involved in the public school system, the more pressures put on them by a high home school populace, the better off it is. 

[laylalex 7,301]

Thank you, yuna, for your input here. My fiance was homeschooled until the age of 16 with his sister because his parents were convinced (rightly, probably) that the educational opportunities in their tiny town weren't going to be sufficient for their children. His dad was an economist (passed away when the kids were almost eight) and taught them arithmetic, reading and some basic scientific principles; their mum took care of art (she's an artist) and pretty much everything else up until that point. Once their dad died, his mum brought in a succession of tutors/teachers to handle lessons for the kids. They were learning in a semi-structured environment, as the teachers knew what they were actually doing and responded to the kids' needs. Alex was very interested in maths, so he got extra maths. His sister was more interested in languages and art, so there were extra French and Italian and German lessons, along with time in the studio with her mother. They were lucky to have been left a little money in trust to be able to fund this, and some family members chipped in. One year was funded by leftover funds from an insurance payout when the roof sagged in, again. I was probably living a more luxurious lifestyle in public school because my parents had moved into a "good" public school system.

 

He and his sister both liked that there was both structure and freedom in their days, time to run around outside and time to focus on what they wanted to do, at paces that worked for them. It also taught them a lot about independence and the importance of speaking up both for help and to say "I need more." They are both forthright people who rarely beat about the bush. They're both very intelligent and personable as well, but I will be honest, they can be a little awkward even still around others. They could have done with more socialization to be frank, in particular his sister who was happy to stay at home with her mother and make art, but when she went to art school it was kind of a disaster -- she'd had no experience of studying and working with people she wasn't related to. Alex benefited from being sent away to boarding school for a couple of years before university to sand off the rough edges, and by all accounts it was a bit of a rough time for him at first. However it did make the transition to university much smoother, comparatively speaking.

 

I read the actual piece in the Harvard mag earlier this week, and thought about posting it myself -- I don't ascribe to a lot of what is said in there, to be honest, and I think it makes some massive generalizations that aren't very useful in explaining the very kind of pitfalls yuna raises far more incisively and from the viewpoint of someone who is "of" homeschooling, not just "in" it, if that makes any sense. I think in particular her reference to a "bubble" is an apt one, and one I have heard many times from Alex and his sister -- they lived in a bubble which sometimes was comforting, and sometimes suffocating. 

[Boiler 47,526]

I believe home schooling in the UK is very rare, I never met anybody who had been home schooled.

 

US seems different and I can sort of understand why, my default would be to attending a school except in unusual circumstances.

 

Mind you I do tend to think of my favourite College in these circumstances, Evergreen, not to be confused with Everclear even though it appears the faculty may be consuming a lot of it.

 

[laylalex 7,301]

4 hours ago, Boiler said:

I believe home schooling in the UK is very rare, I never met anybody who had been home schooled.

 

US seems different and I can sort of understand why, my default would be to attending a school except in unusual circumstances.

 

Mind you I do tend to think of my favourite College in these circumstances, Evergreen, not to be confused with Everclear even though it appears the faculty may be consuming a lot of it.

 

Al is the only person he knows except his sister who was homeschooled. Apparently in Scotland if you never have your kids in state school, you don't need to seek permission to homeschool at all -- you only need permission to withdraw kids from school and then start teaching at home. As I said he liked the experience but he was pretty insistent his own daughter go to primary school, even though the school in her village is kind of meh. 

[Dashinka 25,898]

9 hours ago, Boiler said:

I believe home schooling in the UK is very rare, I never met anybody who had been home schooled.

 

US seems different and I can sort of understand why, my default would be to attending a school except in unusual circumstances.

 

Mind you I do tend to think of my favourite College in these circumstances, Evergreen, not to be confused with Everclear even though it appears the faculty may be consuming a lot of it.

 

Funny story, back in my university days, I worked as a custodian in the dorms.  One Sunday morning we were picking up the trash on the various floors and found one trash room with seven empty bottles of Everclear.  My colleague and I wondered where the dead bodies were. Apparently, there were none that we ever found out about, but someone definitely had a fun time.

[Ban Hammer 14,297]

some of the brightest people i've known were home schooled. 
there are pluses and minuses to either one - if the parents are involved, then home schooling is the best option.

[yuna628 9,880]

4 hours ago, Ban Hammer said:

some of the brightest people i've known were home schooled. 
there are pluses and minuses to either one - if the parents are involved, then home schooling is the best option.

Agreed. Unfortunately there are groups of parents being involved but the education is lacking because they really don't know what they are doing and want the child to not *learn* anything, and there are groups of parents that aren't interested in the responsibility of teaching at all. That is often some of what very concerned individuals get angry about when talking about homeschoolers. We're all lumped into the same pot, but there is extremely little that is done or can be done to help those kids that are in the 'bad' types of families. The biggest advocate group for homeschooling does not want to acknowledge these issues, agree to any sort of even the smallest oversight, or assist kids in these families that have had their life destroyed.

[Burnt Reynolds 5,058]

Speaking of learning..

 

Do abortion advocacy groups acknowledge in their pitches the idea of not having abortions? Abortion being bad? Killing your offspring? The health and psychological implications?

 

Do drug legalization advocates promote the litany of problems drugs cause and that people shouldn't do them?

 

Advocacy groups are set up specifically for the promotion of an idea/cause, so there's no rationality to the idea that they promote ideas counter to what they're advocating for. Successful advocacy groups simply don't do it in reality because it makes no sense. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Burnt Reynolds