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imm1234

Has anyone filed under the 4 year 1 day rule without a lawyer?

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My parents are eligible to file under the 4 year and 1 day rule next week. We have spoken to 2 attorneys and they said my parents are eligible (they left the country for 15 months after filing for a re-entry permit in person before leaving, but they have been maintaining continuous residence since Jan 2015, they had left for health treatments abroad as they didn’t have health insurance here in the US at the time) 

 

One out of town attorney was too expensive to retain and one said they could just attend the interview with my parents, so wouldn’t have to pay their firm the expensive filing fees.

 

We can file the n400 without issues, but I have read that sometimes USCIS agents aren’t aware of the 4 year and 1 day rule and will reject the application. There is also no place on the application to clarify that we are filing under the 4 year and 1 day rule as opposed to the 5 years rule. 

 

Has anyone filed and received their citizenship under this rule with no issues? Without retaining an attorney? Is there a way to attach a letter or addendum stating our intent to file under this rule when we file the n400 online?

 

Thank you!

 

 

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FYI, it's still a filing under the 5-year rule, they're filing on the basis of having been LPRs for 5 years.


Entry on VWP to visit then-boyfriend 06/13/2011

Married 06/24/2011

Our first son was born 10/31/2012, our daughter was born 06/30/2014, our second son was born 06/20/2017

AOS Timeline

AOS package mailed 09/06/2011 (Chicago Lockbox)

AOS package signed for by R Mercado 09/07/2011

Priority date for I-485&I-130 09/08/2011

Biometrics done 10/03/2011

Interview letter received 11/18/2011

INTERVIEW DATE!!!! 12/20/2011

Approval e-mail 12/21/2011

Card production e-mail 12/27/2011

GREEN CARD ARRIVED 12/31/2011

Resident since 12/21/2011

ROC Timeline

ROC package mailed to VSC 11/22/2013

NOA1 date 11/26/2013

Biometrics date 12/26/2013

Transfer notice to CSC 03/14/2014

Change of address 03/27/2014

Card production ordered 04/30/2014

10-YEAR GREEN CARD ARRIVED 05/06/2014

N-400 Timeline

N-400 package mailed 09/30/2014

N-400 package delivered 10/01/2014

NOA1 date 10/20/2014

Biometrics date 11/14/2014

Early walk-in biometrics 11/12/2014

In-line for interview 11/23/2014

Interview letter 03/18/2015

Interview date 04/17/2015 ("Decision cannot yet be made.")

In-line for oath scheduling 05/04/2015

Oath ceremony letter dated 05/11/2015

Oath ceremony 06/02/2015

I am a United States citizen!

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https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartD-Chapter3.html

"An applicant who is required to establish continuous residence for at least 5 years and whose application for naturalization is denied for an absence of one year or longer, may apply for naturalization four years and one day after returning to the United States to resume permanent residence."

 

Have they been denied in the past?

Edited by geowrian

Timelines:

Spoiler

AOS (I-485 + I-131 + I-765):

9/25/17: sent forms to Chicago

9/27/17: received by USCIS

10/4/17: NOA1 electronic notification received

10/10/17: NOA1 hard copy received. Social Security card being issued in married name (3rd attempt!)

10/14/17: Biometrics appointment notice received

10/25/17: Biometrics

1/2/18: EAD + AP approved (no website update)

1/5/18: EAD + AP mailed

1/8/18: EAD + AP approval notice hardcopies received

1/10/18: EAD + AP received

9/5/18: Interview scheduled notice

10/17/18: Interview

10/24/18: Green card produced notice

10/25/18: Formal approval

10/31/18: Green card received

 

K-1:

Spoiler

I-129F

12/1/17: sent

12/14/17: NOA1 hard copy received

3/10/17: RFE (IMB verification)

3/22/17: RFE response received

3/24/17: Approved!

3/30/17: NOA2 hard copy received

 

NVC

4/6/2017: Received

4/12/2017: Sent to Riyadh embassy

4/16/2017: Case received at Riyadh embassy

4/21/2017: Request case transfer to Manila, approved 4/24/2017

 

K-1

5/1/2017: Case received by Manila (1 week embassy transfer??? Lucky~)

7/13/2017: Interview: APPROVED!!!

7/19/2017: Visa in hand

8/15/2017: POE

 

 

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29 minutes ago, geowrian said:

https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartD-Chapter3.html

"An applicant who is required to establish continuous residence for at least 5 years and whose application for naturalization is denied for an absence of one year or longer, may apply for naturalization four years and one day after returning to the United States to resume permanent residence."

 

Have they been denied in the past?

 

No, they’ve never filed before. They received their GC in 2012 and had maintained continuous residency until 2013 when they had to leave for 15 months after filing for a re-entry permit. My mother had begun chemo treatments abroad and was advised against traveling by her physicians until her treatment ended.

 

It doesn’t make sense to be denied and then file again after 4 years and 1 day because why would they want anyone to pay the filing fees twice? Knowing they’d get rejected the first time around?

 

 

Edited by imm1234

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30 minutes ago, imm1234 said:

No, they’ve never filed before. They received their GC in 2012 and had maintained continuous residency until 2013 when they had to leave for 15 months after filing for a re-entry permit. My mother had begun chemo treatments abroad and was advised against traveling by her physicians until her treatment ended.

 

It doesn’t make sense to be denied and then file again after 4 years and 1 day because why would they want anyone to pay the filing fees twice? Knowing they’d get rejected the first time around?

Then they don't meet the qualifications for the 4 year + 1 day provision nor the regular 5 year rule at this time. They will become eligible - assuming everything else is in order - at 5 years after their return to the US.

 

Correct. I don't think anybody is suggesting that they file only to get denied then apply again. That provision is usually used when somebody's case was not quite so clear cut that continuous residency was broken, or they didn't know about it and filed anyway. It doesn't make sense to file for naturalization just to get denied & qualify under that provision.

Edited by geowrian

Timelines:

Spoiler

AOS (I-485 + I-131 + I-765):

9/25/17: sent forms to Chicago

9/27/17: received by USCIS

10/4/17: NOA1 electronic notification received

10/10/17: NOA1 hard copy received. Social Security card being issued in married name (3rd attempt!)

10/14/17: Biometrics appointment notice received

10/25/17: Biometrics

1/2/18: EAD + AP approved (no website update)

1/5/18: EAD + AP mailed

1/8/18: EAD + AP approval notice hardcopies received

1/10/18: EAD + AP received

9/5/18: Interview scheduled notice

10/17/18: Interview

10/24/18: Green card produced notice

10/25/18: Formal approval

10/31/18: Green card received

 

K-1:

Spoiler

I-129F

12/1/17: sent

12/14/17: NOA1 hard copy received

3/10/17: RFE (IMB verification)

3/22/17: RFE response received

3/24/17: Approved!

3/30/17: NOA2 hard copy received

 

NVC

4/6/2017: Received

4/12/2017: Sent to Riyadh embassy

4/16/2017: Case received at Riyadh embassy

4/21/2017: Request case transfer to Manila, approved 4/24/2017

 

K-1

5/1/2017: Case received by Manila (1 week embassy transfer??? Lucky~)

7/13/2017: Interview: APPROVED!!!

7/19/2017: Visa in hand

8/15/2017: POE

 

 

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2 minutes ago, geowrian said:

Then they don't meet the qualifications for the 4 year + 1 day provision nor the regular 5 year rule at this time. They will become eligible - assuming everything else is in order - at 5 years after their return to the US.

 

Correct. I don't think anybody is suggesting that they file only to get denied then apply again. That provision is usually used when somebody's case was not quite so clear cut that continuous residency was broken, or they didn't know about it and filed anyway. It doesn't make sense to file for naturalization just to get denied & qualify under that provision.

 

We had two different immigration attorneys (through face to face consultations) confirm that they are eligible to apply under the 4 year and 1 day rule. I was just wondering if anyone on this forum had applied under this rule by themselves with no complications.

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10 minutes ago, imm1234 said:

We had two different immigration attorneys (through face to face consultations) confirm that they are eligible to apply under the 4 year and 1 day rule. I was just wondering if anyone on this forum had applied under this rule by themselves with no complications.

I hope others chime in, but you have it directly from the horse's mouth in the link above. that's the USCIS policy manual that they use when adjudicating the N-400.


Timelines:

Spoiler

AOS (I-485 + I-131 + I-765):

9/25/17: sent forms to Chicago

9/27/17: received by USCIS

10/4/17: NOA1 electronic notification received

10/10/17: NOA1 hard copy received. Social Security card being issued in married name (3rd attempt!)

10/14/17: Biometrics appointment notice received

10/25/17: Biometrics

1/2/18: EAD + AP approved (no website update)

1/5/18: EAD + AP mailed

1/8/18: EAD + AP approval notice hardcopies received

1/10/18: EAD + AP received

9/5/18: Interview scheduled notice

10/17/18: Interview

10/24/18: Green card produced notice

10/25/18: Formal approval

10/31/18: Green card received

 

K-1:

Spoiler

I-129F

12/1/17: sent

12/14/17: NOA1 hard copy received

3/10/17: RFE (IMB verification)

3/22/17: RFE response received

3/24/17: Approved!

3/30/17: NOA2 hard copy received

 

NVC

4/6/2017: Received

4/12/2017: Sent to Riyadh embassy

4/16/2017: Case received at Riyadh embassy

4/21/2017: Request case transfer to Manila, approved 4/24/2017

 

K-1

5/1/2017: Case received by Manila (1 week embassy transfer??? Lucky~)

7/13/2017: Interview: APPROVED!!!

7/19/2017: Visa in hand

8/15/2017: POE

 

 

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26 minutes ago, geowrian said:

I hope others chime in, but you have it directly from the horse's mouth in the link above. that's the USCIS policy manual that they use when adjudicating the N-400.

 

The page that you link on the USCIS site had a footnote that led me to a website that said 

 

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&node=se8.1.316_15

 

 

(ii) For period in excess of one (1) year. Unless an applicant applies for benefits in accordance with §316.5(d), absences from the United States for a continuous period of one (1) year or more during the period for which continuous residence is required under §316.2 (a)(3) and (a)(5) shall disrupt the continuity of the applicant's residence. An applicant described in this paragraph who must satisfy a five-year statutory residence period may file an application for naturalization four years and one day following the date of the applicant's return to the United States to resume permanent residence. An applicant described in this paragraph who must satisfy a three-year statutory residence period may file an application for naturalization two years and one day following the date of the applicant's return to the United States to resume permanent residence.

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Understood. And I'm not doubting that as written under the code. But the policy guide still applies and people have been denied under those circumstances in accordance with the policy (a quick google search finds a number of these cases).

Could one argue the policy? Possibly.


Timelines:

Spoiler

AOS (I-485 + I-131 + I-765):

9/25/17: sent forms to Chicago

9/27/17: received by USCIS

10/4/17: NOA1 electronic notification received

10/10/17: NOA1 hard copy received. Social Security card being issued in married name (3rd attempt!)

10/14/17: Biometrics appointment notice received

10/25/17: Biometrics

1/2/18: EAD + AP approved (no website update)

1/5/18: EAD + AP mailed

1/8/18: EAD + AP approval notice hardcopies received

1/10/18: EAD + AP received

9/5/18: Interview scheduled notice

10/17/18: Interview

10/24/18: Green card produced notice

10/25/18: Formal approval

10/31/18: Green card received

 

K-1:

Spoiler

I-129F

12/1/17: sent

12/14/17: NOA1 hard copy received

3/10/17: RFE (IMB verification)

3/22/17: RFE response received

3/24/17: Approved!

3/30/17: NOA2 hard copy received

 

NVC

4/6/2017: Received

4/12/2017: Sent to Riyadh embassy

4/16/2017: Case received at Riyadh embassy

4/21/2017: Request case transfer to Manila, approved 4/24/2017

 

K-1

5/1/2017: Case received by Manila (1 week embassy transfer??? Lucky~)

7/13/2017: Interview: APPROVED!!!

7/19/2017: Visa in hand

8/15/2017: POE

 

 

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8 hours ago, imm1234 said:

 

No, they’ve never filed before. 

It doesn’t make sense to be denied and then file again after 4 years and 1 day because why would they want anyone to pay the filing fees twice? Knowing they’d get rejected the first time around?

 

 

Sometimes people apply for naturalization without awareness of their own eligibility (or rather, lack of eligibility). Your question is legitimate but that's because you're seeking info beforehand. A surprising number of people do not.

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19 hours ago, imm1234 said:

My parents are eligible to file under the 4 year and 1 day rule next week. We have spoken to 2 attorneys and they said my parents are eligible (they left the country for 15 months after filing for a re-entry permit in person before leaving, but they have been maintaining continuous residence since Jan 2015, they had left for health treatments abroad as they didn’t have health insurance here in the US at the time) 

 

One out of town attorney was too expensive to retain and one said they could just attend the interview with my parents, so wouldn’t have to pay their firm the expensive filing fees.

 

We can file the n400 without issues, but I have read that sometimes USCIS agents aren’t aware of the 4 year and 1 day rule and will reject the application. There is also no place on the application to clarify that we are filing under the 4 year and 1 day rule as opposed to the 5 years rule. 

 

Has anyone filed and received their citizenship under this rule with no issues? Without retaining an attorney? Is there a way to attach a letter or addendum stating our intent to file under this rule when we file the n400 online?

 

Thank you!

 

 

I think this will still be under the 5 year rule when selecting on the N400 form. I will leave it to chime in on the eligibility part of your concern. Good you are doing your due diligence ahead of time so you don't get blindsided later. Good luck.

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Most prudent would be to wait one more year before filing.


Entry on VWP to visit then-boyfriend 06/13/2011

Married 06/24/2011

Our first son was born 10/31/2012, our daughter was born 06/30/2014, our second son was born 06/20/2017

AOS Timeline

AOS package mailed 09/06/2011 (Chicago Lockbox)

AOS package signed for by R Mercado 09/07/2011

Priority date for I-485&I-130 09/08/2011

Biometrics done 10/03/2011

Interview letter received 11/18/2011

INTERVIEW DATE!!!! 12/20/2011

Approval e-mail 12/21/2011

Card production e-mail 12/27/2011

GREEN CARD ARRIVED 12/31/2011

Resident since 12/21/2011

ROC Timeline

ROC package mailed to VSC 11/22/2013

NOA1 date 11/26/2013

Biometrics date 12/26/2013

Transfer notice to CSC 03/14/2014

Change of address 03/27/2014

Card production ordered 04/30/2014

10-YEAR GREEN CARD ARRIVED 05/06/2014

N-400 Timeline

N-400 package mailed 09/30/2014

N-400 package delivered 10/01/2014

NOA1 date 10/20/2014

Biometrics date 11/14/2014

Early walk-in biometrics 11/12/2014

In-line for interview 11/23/2014

Interview letter 03/18/2015

Interview date 04/17/2015 ("Decision cannot yet be made.")

In-line for oath scheduling 05/04/2015

Oath ceremony letter dated 05/11/2015

Oath ceremony 06/02/2015

I am a United States citizen!

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On 1/20/2019 at 8:55 AM, EM_Vandaveer said:

Most prudent would be to wait one more year before filing.

 

Definately, but unfortunately my grandmother lives abroad and her health is getting progressively worse and my father would like to spend time with her before she passes away, instead of having to run back to the US so his continuous residency isn’t broken. Otherwise they would have waited 4 years and 9 months to file. And of course with the current political situation, they would like to file for their citizenship sooner than later.

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15 hours ago, imm1234 said:

 

Definately, but unfortunately my grandmother lives abroad and her health is getting progressively worse and my father would like to spend time with her before she passes away, instead of having to run back to the US so his continuous residency isn’t broken. Otherwise they would have waited 4 years and 9 months to file. And of course with the current political situation, they would like to file for their citizenship sooner than later.

You’re aware that average processing time for N400 is around 10 months now, plus the usual wait for an oath ceremony? 

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What is their timeline for wanting to visit? And how long do they want to go?


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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