Trump shifts blame to violent video games, movies in gun violence discussion

[Keith & Arileidi 437]

 

 

"We have to look at the Internet, because a lot of bad things are happening to young kids and young minds, and their minds are being formed,” said Trump during a meeting in the days after the shooting. “And we have to do something about maybe what they’re seeing and how they’re seeing it. And also video games. I’m hearing more and more people say the level of violence on video games is really shaping young people’s thoughts. And then you go the further step, and that’s the movies. You see these movies, they’re so violent and yet a kid is able to see a movie if sex isn’t involved, but killing is involved. Maybe they have to put a rating system for that.”

 

https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/8/17095178/who-is-going-trump-video-games-meeting-white-house

 

 

Worst president ever! 

 

 

 

 

[Cyberfx1024 7,978]

2 hours ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

 

 

"We have to look at the Internet, because a lot of bad things are happening to young kids and young minds, and their minds are being formed,” said Trump during a meeting in the days after the shooting. “And we have to do something about maybe what they’re seeing and how they’re seeing it. And also video games. I’m hearing more and more people say the level of violence on video games is really shaping young people’s thoughts. And then you go the further step, and that’s the movies. You see these movies, they’re so violent and yet a kid is able to see a movie if sex isn’t involved, but killing is involved. Maybe they have to put a rating system for that.”

 

https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/8/17095178/who-is-going-trump-video-games-meeting-white-house

 

 

Worst president ever! 

 

 

 

 

It is part of the problem though you have to admit that.

 

 

 

Where you been at man we missed you around here?

[bcking 3,157]

As a former avid gamer I have to say yes I think it is part of the problem. A small part, but it definitely contributes. TV, Movies and Games all desensitize everyone to violence and make it seem "normal".

 

I think he should also apply this reasoning to sexism and misogyny. When young men see on television that older successful men can make disparaging comments towards women and get away with it by calling it "locker room talk", and ultimately become President...it really reinforces that speaking that way is okay, and ultimately perhaps acting that way is okay as well.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 hours ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

 

 

"We have to look at the Internet, because a lot of bad things are happening to young kids and young minds, and their minds are being formed,” said Trump during a meeting in the days after the shooting. “And we have to do something about maybe what they’re seeing and how they’re seeing it. And also video games. I’m hearing more and more people say the level of violence on video games is really shaping young people’s thoughts. And then you go the further step, and that’s the movies. You see these movies, they’re so violent and yet a kid is able to see a movie if sex isn’t involved, but killing is involved. Maybe they have to put a rating system for that.”

 

https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/8/17095178/who-is-going-trump-video-games-meeting-white-house

 

 

Worst president ever! 

 

 

 

 

i say bs. other countries have the same access to video games/violent movies.

my son is a gamer, and we both enjoy the goriest most violent horror movies. we've been watching them together for years. he's extremely passive and nonviolent.

if trump wants to talk about unnecessary violence and disrespect for life, maybe he should look at the trophy law he just reversed. does trump think it's healthy for rich people to be able pay to slaughter a living thing? his sons seem to love it.

[Keith & Arileidi 437]

27 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

It is part of the problem though you have to admit that.

 

 

 

Where you been at man we missed you around here?

No it's not. 

Infact this has been studied a number of times.

And ...

videogames that we play in the US are usually sold world wide. 

Soo...

Good riddance to that bad coaralation. 

 

Working and school mostly. 

 

[smilesammich 10,727]

and what does trump mean  "Maybe they have to put a rating system for that" there is a ratings system for video games. and for music. and for movies.

[bcking 3,157]

50 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

and what does trump mean  "Maybe they have to put a rating system for that" there is a ratings system for video games. and for music. and for movies.

How effective are those rating systems really? 

 

For video games you can buy everything online now. A 15 year old knows how to input their date of birth to make them 18+ or whatever the rating system requires.

 

57 minutes ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

No it's not. 

Infact this has been studied a number of times.

And ...

videogames that we play in the US are usually sold world wide. 

Soo...

Good riddance to that bad coaralation. 

 

Working and school mostly. 

 

It has been studied a lot.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/Supplement_2/S142

 

Here is a review from 2017 in Pediatrics.

 

"It is also important to understand that no single risk factor causes a child or adolescent to behave aggressively or violently. Instead, it is the accumulation of risk factors and the relative lack of protective factors that lead to aggressive and violent acts.^8–10 We do not contend that media violence is the only or, in most cases, even the primary causal risk factor for aggressive or violent behavior in youth. However, the research consistently supports the hypothesis that it is one of the risk factors and that it is not the smallest of them. Importantly, it is one of the few risk factors that can be modified with little cost to parents or to society in general."

 

I agree with you on the implications of looking at other places outside of the USA. Video games are fairly ubiquitous, especially in "first world" countries. I'm not aware of any studies that suggest that the US consumes more "violent" video games than say South Korea, Canada, UK etc... Yet our rates of violence are higher. That further supports that it is typically not the causal risk factor, but that doesn't mean it isn't one of many risk factors.

Edited March 8, 2018 by bcking

[smilesammich 10,727]

9 minutes ago, bcking said:

How effective are those rating systems really? 

 

For video games you can buy everything online now. A 15 year old knows how to input their date of birth to make them 18+ or whatever the rating system requires.

 

It has been studied a lot.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/Supplement_2/S142

 

Here is a review from 2017 in Pediatrics.

 

"It is also important to understand that no single risk factor causes a child or adolescent to behave aggressively or violently. Instead, it is the accumulation of risk factors and the relative lack of protective factors that lead to aggressive and violent acts.^8–10 We do not contend that media violence is the only or, in most cases, even the primary causal risk factor for aggressive or violent behavior in youth. However, the research consistently supports the hypothesis that it is one of the risk factors and that it is not the smallest of them. Importantly, it is one of the few risk factors that can be modified with little cost to parents or to society in general."

 

I agree with you on the implications of looking at other places outside of the USA. Video games are fairly ubiquitous, especially in "first world" countries. I'm not aware of any studies that suggest that the US consumes more "violent" video games than say South Korea, Canada, UK etc... Yet our rates of violence are higher. That further supports that it is typically not the causal risk factor, but that doesn't mean it isn't one of many risk factors.

i remember trying to get into R rated movies as a teen and only got away with it once or twice. i had to get older friends to buy tapes with explicit lyrics. and for my own son, when i was buying him gta, the kid selling the game to me at game stop said 'you do know this game has players sell drugs and you can get prostitutes and stuff - are you okay with that?'- he wouldn't have sold the game to my son without my approval.  i mean, i know kids can override settings on online purchases but an involved parent has safeguards in place so their kid can't make those changes to their accounts if the parent doesn't want them to/allow it. parental involvement or lack there of is the main risk, imo. i find it odd that trump has a young son and has no idea that there are ratings systems on video games already.

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

4 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i remember trying to get into R rated movies as a teen and only got away with it once or twice. i had to get older friends to buy tapes with explicit lyrics. and for my own son, when i was buying him gta, the kid selling the game to me at game stop said 'you do know this game has players sell drugs and you can get prostitutes and stuff - are you okay with that?'- he wouldn't have sold the game to my son without my approval.  i mean, i know kids can override settings on online purchases but an involved parent has safeguards in place so their kid can't make those changes to their accounts if the parent doesn't want them to/allow it. parental involvement or lack there of is the main risk, imo. i find it odd that trump has a young son and has no idea that there are ratings systems on video games already.

 

 

Do you really think Trump is in any way involved in what toys/games his young son gets? I'm sure if he does buy any presents for him it is through an intermediary person. I doubt even Melania really goes "shopping" for gifts. They probably both tell someone else to buy things. This isn't a dig at Trump, just the likely reality of having a wealthy businessman father, worse that he is older and has already raised a set of significant older children, and even worse because he is President and is therefore even more limited in what he can do for his son (and what he has time to do).

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/190225/digital-and-physical-game-sales-in-the-us-since-2009/

 

In 2016 just 26% of video game sales were in physical form. The safeguards are much harder to enforce online, so that is 3/4 of video game sales with weaker safeguards. Even the physical store sales though it would really depend on the parent, and the sales person. I doubt every sales person would say what that person said to you. Some may say "This game is rated mature, are you okay?", and some would say nothing and assume that since you are there with your child purchasing the game that you have already given your approval.

 

Movie theaters I do think are better at enforcing their rating scales. Though once the movie goes to DVD the same issue comes up again since I imagine the statistics on DVD sales are somewhat similar to video games (if not worse).

Edited March 8, 2018 by bcking

[yuna628 9,534]

My husband and I have been avid gamers since little kids (him more than me.. afterall he can make them). Never had a single desire to murder anyone. I was kept to age appropriate games growing up, but my husband mostly obtained whatever games he wanted. He loves Halo, I love GoW. My best friend loves CoD. He loves GTA and I like Saint's Row. Most of these games are extremely violent. We all understand fantasy from reality, but we were also raised to have respect for life - both human and animal. Again I believe the behavior towards guns in general (even in gun owning countries) are very different than in America. There's a healthy sort of respect for it, an understanding and caution of it's limits, and a respect for life. It used to be like that in America to a degree, but that time has long been surpassed. And of course, there is limited access to weapons in other countries.

 

Japan and other countries consume far more video games and violent media than the US. Yet they too have a much different outlook on violence and guns. and of course their access to guns are restricted. That being said, I have known a lot of kids that consume vast amounts of violent media. This alone does not instill a change in a child. When parents refuse to become involved in their child's lives, to parent, to understand the current rating system, to even learn technology or try to play a game - it should not be surprising what the child learns is appropriate behavior. I have also seen many children that are unstable and mostly left to such devices with no supervision, in order to 'calm them'... which is mostly a code word for parents not parenting.

 

Rating systems imo - from movies to music to games, are useless. A kid can obtain a video game that is above his age limit in seconds from a variety of methods, and if he couldn't, a parent will surely buy them no problem. A parent that truly parents, spends time with their kids, instills values, and joins in activities will know readily what media consumption is age appropriate for their child's maturity level. Raise the kid a certain way (or not raise them at all) and give them pretty free access to weapons, and don't be surprised at the end result.

 

29 minutes ago, bcking said:

How effective are those rating systems really? 

 

For video games you can buy everything online now. A 15 year old knows how to input their date of birth to make them 18+ or whatever the rating system requires.

 

It has been studied a lot.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/Supplement_2/S142

 

Here is a review from 2017 in Pediatrics.

 

"It is also important to understand that no single risk factor causes a child or adolescent to behave aggressively or violently. Instead, it is the accumulation of risk factors and the relative lack of protective factors that lead to aggressive and violent acts.^8–10 We do not contend that media violence is the only or, in most cases, even the primary causal risk factor for aggressive or violent behavior in youth. However, the research consistently supports the hypothesis that it is one of the risk factors and that it is not the smallest of them. Importantly, it is one of the few risk factors that can be modified with little cost to parents or to society in general."

 

Have any of these studies looked at kids from other countries that consume the same or far more violent media than comparable American kids culturally and come to the same conclusion? I can't stress more how the consumption of violent games and anime is ingrained culturally in places like Japan. The lines of fantasy and reality is blurred severely in a way that would seem strange to Americans there.

 

I mean this is an old talking point we've been hearing for so long. We've had congressional hearings about this junk from time to time. Psychologists have come out in favor for and against. We have this same conversation every time an event happens. The NRA performs a big 'whataboutism' and politicians come running. I could point out hundreds of links about video games and school shootings: including this one from the very conservative NR  or this one from WaPo  or these two from Reason that are just as skeptical as I am about video games being the culprit.

 

6 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i remember trying to get into R rated movies as a teen and only got away with it once or twice. i had to get older friends to buy tapes with explicit lyrics. and for my own son, when i was buying him gta, the kid selling the game to me at game stop said 'you do know this game has players sell drugs and you can get prostitutes and stuff - are you okay with that?'- he wouldn't have sold the game to my son without my approval.  i mean, i know kids can override settings on online purchases but an involved parent has safeguards in place so their kid can't make those changes to their accounts if the parent doesn't want them to/allow it. parental involvement or lack there of is the main risk, imo. i find it odd that trump has a young son and has no idea that there are ratings systems on video games already.

 

 

I don't find it odd at all.... sadly I don't think he's very hands-on as a parent. He's likely going to fit into the category of so many parents that pop out the babies and spend little time thinking about them afterwards. So maybe he should ask Melania about it.. she has been fairly protective of her son thus far.

[bcking 3,157]

2 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

My husband and I have been avid gamers since little kids (him more than me.. afterall he can make them). Never had a single desire to murder anyone. I was kept to age appropriate games growing up, but my husband mostly obtained whatever games he wanted. He loves Halo, I love GoW. My best friend loves CoD. He loves GTA and I like Saint's Row. Most of these games are extremely violent. We all understand fantasy from reality, but we were also raised to have respect for life - both human and animal. Again I believe the behavior towards guns in general (even in gun owning countries) are very different than in America. There's a healthy sort of respect for it, an understanding and caution of it's limits, and a respect for life. It used to be like that in America to a degree, but that time has long been surpassed. And of course, there is limited access to weapons in other countries.

 

Video game consumption has become essentially as ubiquitous as movie/television consumption. Obviously the vast majority of people who consume "violent content" aren't going to become murderers. That isn't required for there to be an association. Most people who play violent video games won't become murderers, that is a fact.

 

Similarly, the majority of people who smoke cigarettes will NOT get lung cancer. That may be an uncomfortable thing to hear, considering everything we hear about smoking causing cancer. Your relative risk of lung cancer is increased substantially from smoking, but if you look at absolute risk fewer than 10% (I believe) or smokers will get cancer. Most will not.

 

10 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Have any of these studies looked at kids from other countries that consume the same or far more violent media than comparable American kids culturally and come to the same conclusion? I can't stress more how the consumption of violent games and anime is ingrained culturally in places like Japan. The lines of fantasy and reality is blurred severely in a way that would seem strange to Americans there.

 

Since my patients don't consume any form of media (they are babies), it isn't an area of research I'm that familiar with to be honest. 

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/122/5/e1067 - A study written by the first author of the review I posted earlier (Craig Anderson). He compared American kids to Japanese kids. It was consistent across cultures (though a relatively small population of students).

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20192553 - Here is a meta-analysis on the topic. From their discussion of their results, specifically on cultural differences (VGV = video game violence).

 

"Second, the VGV effects are significant in Eastern as well as Western cultures. There are hints that VGV effects may be larger in Western than Eastern cultures, but these occur only in nonexperimental studies. Indeed, in experimental studies all three outcome variables for which there were sufficient studies (aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, and aggressive affect) yielded slightly larger effects in Eastern studies, though none approached statistical significance. In the few nonexperimental cases in which culture yielded a significant moderator effect, it was unclear whether the difference should be attributed to cultural differences in vulnerability or to the use of different measures."

 

18 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I mean this is an old talking point we've been hearing for so long. We've had congressional hearings about this junk from time to time. Psychologists have come out in favor for and against. We have this same conversation every time an event happens. The NRA performs a big 'whataboutism' and politicians come running. I could point out hundreds of links about video games and school shootings: including this one from the very conservative NR  or this one from WaPo  or these two from Reason that are just as skeptical as I am about video games being the culprit.

 

Politicians, and to a lesser extend the lay public, tend to misuse science all the time. For the lay public it is typically due to shoddy reporting on the studies, that jump to massive conclusions and try to summarize results in ways that make the results sound larger than they are. To some extent some researchers are partly responsible, because they seek the attention that will come with media attention on their study.

 

Scientists in general try to take a very measured approach, which doesn't fit well in politics and media. Politicians want to hear "This does that" or "This is the cause of that", and not "This may contribute, but is not necessary and sufficient to cause that" because that makes their job harder. Risk factors are just risk factors, and in most cases the majority of people exposed to a risk factor will STILL not have the outcome in question (Majority of gamers won't become mass murderers). You have to way how substantial of a risk you think it is, with the difficulties involved in regulating the risk. Is it worth targeting video games and significantly culling the violence in them? Studies have shown benefits from video games, as well as potential risks...so it is a difficult decision.

 

I'm much happier as a scientist than I would be as a policy maker I imagine. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, smilesammich said:

i say bs. other countries have the same access to video games/violent movies.

my son is a gamer, and we both enjoy the goriest most violent horror movies. we've been watching them together for years. he's extremely passive and nonviolent.

if trump wants to talk about unnecessary violence and disrespect for life, maybe he should look at the trophy law he just reversed. does trump think it's healthy for rich people to be able pay to slaughter a living thing? his sons seem to love it.

Just because you're a great mom and stay involved doesn't mean everyone is.  I allowed my kids to game a bit and watch R rated movies, but supervised it early on.  My son had amazing game skills, blew me away.  

 

But... many parents let the games and movies do the babysitting, and I'm sure you'd agree this is not the same as your method.

 

Games today are FAR more graphic and violent than in the past.  I've heard teens saying they were "going to go all GTA4" on someone who crossed them.

 

Movies, too.  Cursing, killing, blood, gore, etc.  We've all become desensitized to it.  It's the new norm. And I feel it plays a part in what people with few morals feel is acceptable. 

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Ban video games. And poodles.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Just now, spookyturtle said:

Ban video games. And poodles.

Not poodles.  They are hypoallergenic. 

[-Trinity- 513]

My two cents: I think it's the same thing with cannabis. There already has to be something off in a person's mind, and vigorously gaming/smoking weed triggers that person mind.

 

Some people can smoke cannabis their entire life and never get affected by it, and some people do. Same thing with alcohol.