God

[Captain Oates 910]

Just doing my research for the ceremony which should be around Christmas time if I manage to pass the English test.

(must remember hood, trunk, fender etc)

I am not religious so I will need to affirm. The oath at the interview sounds pretty godless according to the the USCIS video so that's ok

The oath at the ceremony is my question:

I have seen videos of two hundred people all taking the oath of allegiance and saying 'so help me god'

I suppose I can mention this when I meet the USCIS representative at the ceremony, but do we all stand there at the oath while I say one thing and the others say another ?

I would have to remember the oath if I am not repeating the words of the head honcho who is conducting the ceremony

Anyone any experience of this please ?

thanks

Edited May 12, 2010 by saywhat

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I don't know the answer to this (and I'm a long way off) but I also wanted to add --

As you're also British and therefore entitled to retain your UK passport, are you also planning to remove the "renounce all allegiances, citizenships..."? or does that HAVE to be said?

I, like you, am non-religious and also because I plan on keeping my Aussie and UK passports I can't help but feel like I'm lying by saying what I don't truly mean (or getting into shite if I simply don't "say" it).

[Captain Oates 910]

I don't know the answer to this (and I'm a long way off) but I also wanted to add --

As you're also British and therefore entitled to retain your UK passport, are you also planning to remove the "renounce all allegiances, citizenships..."? or does that HAVE to be said?

I, like you, am non-religious and also because I plan on keeping my Aussie and UK passports I can't help but feel like I'm lying by saying what I don't truly mean (or getting into shite if I simply don't "say" it).

Good point - as you know, the UK government gets round this by saying it's a verbal oath and doesn't count so I can keep my UK passport

But your question is about the sincerity of the oath. On a practical basis, the oath does let us out of the god thing, but makes no allowance for the allegiances.

I guess we have to break it down:

Would I fight for the U.S. if it decided to invade the UK and waterboard the Queen and hang the Prime Minister? No is the answer.

Therefore I have to lie or not become a citizen ? The only way I can square this is to say to myself that I would immediately renounce my US citizenship if the U.S. did anything like that against the U.K.

By doing that mental gymnastics, I tell myself that my intention is to not have allegiance to the UK at any time during my US Citizenship, but would resume that allegiance and renounce my US Citizenship, should that become necessary.

It's a politician's trick which I am playing on my own conscience, but allows me to take the oath and express my intentions AT THE TIME. The point is that things can change so getting married or taking this oath does not bind us as permanently as having a tattoo or having a tooth out.

Incidentally, US Citizens fought for the British during both world wars and BEFORE the US came into the wars.

ps I am 62 and a national class marksman with a rifle since 1967 - but I am hoping the yankees wont parachute me into Iran

Edited May 13, 2010 by saywhat

[Bobby+Umit 161]

If you wish to omit "so help me God" from your process, you are perfectly free to do so.

You can discuss this with the USCIS rep - they will tell you not to say those words, and will cross them out from the form you sign.

Not sure about giving up previous citizenship - you can read here.

[Captain Oates 910]

If you wish to omit "so help me God" from your process, you are perfectly free to do so.

You can discuss this with the USCIS rep - they will tell you not to say those words, and will cross them out from the form you sign.

Not sure about giving up previous citizenship - you can read here.

yes but how does it work in a hall of 300 people ?

are we all given different cards so different people can be heard mumbling different words ?

how does it work in practice ?

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

That is your problem? Seriously?

God is a substitute term for something to fear. So if you are a child and you did wet your bed again and your mom tells you "you better did not wet your bed again so help you God" it means nothing else than that she will get the paddle out and whip your butt until it's glowing red.

If you associate the word God for an older, Caucasian male with whitish-gray, yet long hair and a medium sized pen*s, your brain is f*cking with you. God can be nature, the One, or simply your mom, holding the paddle. God does not means a carpenter born to a virgin or anything like it.

Why creating a problem that doesn't exist? More worrysome is the Oath of Allegiance itself. Ready to drop a bomb on your parents' house in case of war? 'Cause that's what you swearing to do. That's something to worry about. F*gg the God thingi . . .

[Captain Oates 910]

Yes but how does it go at the ceremony ?

The USCIS website has a video of 300 of the huddled masses taking the oath - and they are repeating what the guy says and talking in tongues..

What do the 'others' do ? How do they affirm ? Do they do it in back room while the religious are all together and repeating the oath ?

That's the answer I seek

PS I just found that one of President Obama's ancestors (obviously on his mother's side) were a couple from Yorkshire - what fun I can have with that. If the Americans knew the implications of that, they would be happy to settle for Kenya I bet. Birthers or Tykers ?

[NickD 202]

Original oath:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Modified oath lets you state you do not want to perform combative or non-combative services for religious purposes so you can leave those two out, for other religious or non-religious reasons, "so help me God", may also be left out. But you have to send a letter with proof of your convictions to the USCIS to make any of these changes. Is it worthwhile?

We had this debate with my wife, particularly on bearing arms for this country, war with Venezuela is more likely, but hopefully we have leadership that will no longer pit an 18 year old against another 18 year old, my history and will go directly against the leadership, Hugo comes to mind that is causing severe suffering for his own people. But wife did admit she would fire back at terrorists if they were at our front door shooting at her, me, or her daughter.

Oath ceremony is strictly lip sync service, at your interview, you will read the oath aloud and sign it, makes you wonder why they even bother with the oath service, just another very long trip. I really don't know if they cross out the parts you prove you don't like.

Contradictory anyway, no replies from Obama, Feingold, nor Obey on this subject, got the USCIS saying one thing, and the DOS saying another, wife is forced to maintain citizenship in Colombia if she wants to visit her mom. All these 1,525 government agencies formed mostly in the last 40 years is stupid, at one time, only could make recommendations to congress, now they are dictators making laws that congress is not even aware of.

So the USCIS says she has to renounce her Colombia citizenship, DOS is saying she has to maintain it, if she wants to visit her mom, but they don't dare use the word "citizenship", use "nationality" instead like that makes any difference in terms of the bottom line. She has to maintain Colombian citizenship if she wants to visit her mom. She left Colombia at 18 years of age and wanted to be a citizen of Venezuela. But the way things are today, doesn't want any part of Venezuela except for all of her friends and her son we are still trying to get out of there. DOS is more interested in the middle east and Africa today for issuing visas.

So we are dealing with a screwed up government, our own whose right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing. As an 18 year old natural born citizen of this county, and this is MY country, had three choices since I didn't have a dad to send me to Harvard. Take an oath to die for my country, go to jail, or run off to Canada, I elected to take an oath to die for my country. Can't say this about our leadership that I really consider to be the real traitors of this country, Regan for selling ourselves to foreign countries, draft dodger, Bush for getting us involved in the middle east that wasn't a problem, but he did serve this country, Clinton for selling us to the Chinese drastically hurting our economy, another draft dodger, and that spoiled brat Bush kid, another draft dodger that faked an unnecessary war. Granted, this time he did go for the leadership of Iraq,but the other 650,000 other that were killed, well that was just collateral damage. I haven't made any sense out of Obama yet, but certainly do not believe we should be sending billions to Afghanistan to build there infrastructure when MY country is falling apart.

As a natural born USC, you do have the right to speak out your mind, but its understood, can do the same as a naturalized citizen and do have the power of one vote. Wouldn't sweat the oath, more like taking one day at a time and disagree at that time if it should come up. Disagreeing doesn't do any good, nor does writing letter after letter and even using stern logic in your say. God is no problem, just about as many people on this earth have their own definition of what God is, use your own, that is not defined by anyone. Bearing arms can be a problem, but heard nothing about my wife's concern about protecting Hugo. She kind of hopes he will be struck by lightning for the damage he has incurred on her son and friends in her former country.

[warlord 72]

No one will hear what you say. In my oath ceremony you had 300 people saying everything at totally different times, some spoke slower, others faster, others just mouthed the words and others didn't even say anything. I always add a s to the end to make it gods. Don't worry it won't make any difference if you say it or not...

[Captain Oates 910]

Getting nearer guys but I still don't know how it's done for people who wish to affirm rather than swear.

(My mother told me never to swear in public)

I understand I will be in a big hall with a cross section of the world's uprooted adventurers like me, but I don't know how I remember the words of affirmation - it's easy for t'others as they try and repeat what the lord's designate is saying up there - but my question is - do they give you a card to read from ?

Has anyone any personal experience of how it goes ? So far I don't think anyone has.

Edited May 13, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 910]

Modified oath lets you state you do not want to perform combative or non-combative services for religious purposes so you can leave those two out, for other religious or non-religious reasons, "so help me God", may also be left out. But you have to send a letter with proof of your convictions to the USCIS to make any of these changes. Is it worthwhile?

I don't think that is so Nick - I know you need written stuff from your church/religious teacher etc to get out of the army stuff - but for simply wanting to delete 'god' in the oath, I don't see any requirement to 'prove' I am an atheist - How would I do that anyway? Atheists don't have a church to certify that they don't believe in god... I could send em a you tube link of my teacher on religious issues - Mr Bill Maher...

Imagine - 'we require you to prove you don't believe in god'

No, affirmation is available on demand (or civilized and affable request if you are English)- but it's the mechanics of how that works at the service - oops I mean ceremony, that I am interested in.

[Filipinawife0210 15]

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.

[Jenn! 918]

What? Non-USCs are not allowed to speak badly about the president or U.S. policy?

[Filipinawife0210 15]

What? Non-USCs are not allowed to speak badly about the president or U.S. policy?

True.....I agree with you there, but that's not the "meat and potatoes" of my post. I just want to know why they want to be US citizens if they are so ready to renounce said citizenship. Tens of thousands take the same oath every year, and are willing to lay down their lives to defend that oath, and what it signifies. The religious aspect is a seperate issue, and I totally understand the question there, so don't think I question of the validity of those concerns. Plain and simple, if they have to lie to themselves to take the oath, they shouldn't be taking it.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Filipinawife0210

[Justine+David 218]

Um...Jenn's right. If you think that the only people who talk badly about America are Americans, you are living in a fantasy world...no one will get arrested for saying that they don't like the president.

Personally, once David gets citizenship, I'm thinking of getting UK citizenship when we move over there in a few years. David has said that he will choose the side that he believes is doing the "right" thing, should the two countries come to war. However, apparently the UK has been upgraded again to a "special relationship" as Obama called up Cameron (new Prime Minister) instead of the "special partnership" that Obama talked about with Brown, the outgoing PM, so doesn't look like we'll be going to war anytime soon.

For me, yeah, I will choose sides for who is right. With the likes of former President Bush being elected (really American people? I blame myself. I was young and naive when I voted for him in 2004 as an 18 year old), I could imagine some bad antics occurring... although I would probably work to get rid of him first.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Justine+David