God

[Captain Oates 910]

My husband is atheist and will be struggling with this same issue when the time comes. The "just say it, it doesn't mean anything" argument, I find rather ridiculous. My husband would say "so help me tooth fairy" or "so help me Father Christmas" before he ever said, "so help me God".

For the record, I am not an atheist, but I fully support anyone's right to freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

If you're principals tell you not to say it, don't.

I am warming to the idea of winning by not being simplistic about this:

This youtube explains the idea.

http://www.in3.info/ynFSpITsUjNct/9206-Tiger-wmv/

Edited May 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Christi and Ian 24]

The link leads me to a website in Spanish!

[Captain Oates 910]

The link leads me to a website in Spanish!

yes my son lives in tenerife..

but there are no words anyway so the picture tells the story...

try this :

There are more ways to skin a cat than buying a cat skinning machine

Edited May 16, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 910]

This is how to swear an oath

I could do it this style which might be the most effective way to get em to drop it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqXHbPeJciI

[NickD 202]

What else can I say, "so help me God", is the ending phrase of just about any oath except the presidential oath and has been that way for the last 230 some odd years, like in "God we trust" on our money. Ha, if you don't like God on your money, you can give it to me.

Both my wife and me were baptized Roman Catholic, while after I did get my marriage annulled for the simple fact I wanted every tie with my ex ended, getting this done in Colombia is impossible, a very corrupt church in that country. But even at that, we broke away from that faith. The concept of a merciful God demanding the execution of his own son is a little too much for both of us and to save all of mankind. In a study of ancient religions, nothing supernatural is present, all was written during the knowledge of the time. But do consider Jesus to be a great philosopher that was responsible for the guidelines of this country. And this country was really great at one time. Even my wife's brother broke away from his church and became a Protestant minister. I really like him and I do bow my head when we pray together, okay, so I am a hypocrite, but family comes first, religion after. He is not even trying to convert either of us.

My own family has split up into different beliefs, can't really judge if they are right or wrong, and don't even want to judge, this is my family and I respect their beliefs and don't push mine. Nevertheless, was born into this world with no choice of my own and a fantastic world it is loaded with miracles that man had nothing to do with. Birth is one of them that man had nothing to do with, even amazed when peeling a banana, that man didn't have anything to do with either. Man has made discoveries, but the ingredients were provided to us, the very computer you are using to communicate with me and others is made from sand off a beach, isn't that some kind of miracle as well as the rest of the millions of discoveries?

Is this all an accident of nature, or was it planned by some Creator? I tend to believe it was not an accident, nor is the love I have for my wife, meeting her was a miracle. I tend to believe this Creator has yet to reveal either a supernatural being or perhaps even a group of such persons. Whoever, whatever, that is my God.

I am pleased to live in a country based on Christian principles but those Christian principles are going to hell and have been in particularly in recent years. One example is our principle of separate from religion from state that is not followed in a practical sense. The neighbor that lives behind me is a minister, a nice guy and all that, but when I looked up is home in public property taxes, he is tax exempt. I feel that is not right, is having a lot of remodeling done to his home and drives a very nice car, he should be paying taxes as well of the rest of the churches. This is not separation from religion and state, and again unanswered question from our leaders, will do anything to get votes even though its against the US constitution.

I don't mine saying "so help me God", after an oath, a tradition of our nation, and it has to be my God, not yours or anyone else's. Do not feel that I am being a hypocrite on the subject.

And it appears to me, saywhat, you are using everyone else's god besides your own. we all have a god, whether it be a beer, your deepest, inward thoughts, a banana, or even that thingy hanging between your legs

[Captain Oates 910]

I don't mine saying "so help me God", after an oath, a tradition of our nation, and it has to be my God, not yours or anyone else's. Do not feel that I am being a hypocrite on the subject.

And it appears to me, saywhat, you are using everyone else's god besides your own. we all have a god, whether it be a beer, your deepest, inward thoughts, a banana, or even that thingy hanging between your legs

Heck that last one would be useful next time the Jehovah's come round. Explaining that particular god should be fun. I don't think it would be a good god at my age as it's centrality to my being is waning, and if I had a god, it wouldn't be a gimmer god. When they told my dad they were Jehovah's witnesses, he would reply 'Why, what has he done ?'

A god is a force that created the world and everything in it. Darwen (an Englishman and therefore credible) wrote that bananas etc evolved to be attractive to creatures who would eat them and spread their seeds along with manure. There is no motive and it's not mystical, it's just what works that's all. On that basis, my god would have to be 'what works' - and even that has no motive behind it because bananas didn't sit down and design themselves to be tasty, they evolved by virtue of what works - bit by bit. Bananas were not as tasty 100 million years ago - it's gradual. Intelligent design ? How come I have an ingrowing toenail on my right big toe and so did my mother - could it be the creator didn't design humans perfectly ? A nine for effort - but needs to complete the work carefully. Or perhaps my toenail was to 'test' me. Humans are not designed as well as the average Honda - otherwise there would be no doctors or hospitals.

None of us can get our heads round infinity, and getting our heads round what is gradually possible in 3.5 billion years - 3,500,000,000 years, 42,000,000,000 months - is too much for most people and therefore they put an angelic smile on their faces and turn it all over to a mystery man with a benign smile who will protect them with a cloak of love - even if they work in the twin towers or are held in auswitz.

It's too much of a stretch for me to say that my god is 'what works', although it's close. There is no immorality in that because I rate myself more ethical and moral and caring than many religious people - people like Mohammed Atta for instance, or the camp guards at Auswitz, the vast majority of whom were religious and so would have no problem taking the oath.

[NickD 202]

Heck that last one would be useful next time the Jehovah's come round. Explaining that particular god should be fun. I don't think it would be a good god at my age as it's centrality to my being is waning, and if I had a god, it wouldn't be a gimmer god. When they told my dad they were Jehovah's witnesses, he would reply 'Why, what has he done ?'

A god is a force that created the world and everything in it. Darwen (an Englishman and therefore credible) wrote that bananas etc evolved to be attractive to creatures who would eat them and spread their seeds along with manure. There is no motive and it's not mystical, it's just what works that's all. On that basis, my god would have to be 'what works' - and even that has no motive behind it because bananas didn't sit down and design themselves to be tasty, they evolved by virtue of what works - bit by bit. Bananas were not as tasty 100 million years ago - it's gradual. Intelligent design ? How come I have an ingrowing toenail on my right big toe and so did my mother - could it be the creator didn't design humans perfectly ? A nine for effort - but needs to complete the work carefully. Or perhaps my toenail was to 'test' me. Humans are not designed as well as the average Honda - otherwise there would be no doctors or hospitals.

None of us can get our heads round infinity, and getting our heads round what is gradually possible in 3.5 billion years - 3,500,000,000 years, 42,000,000,000 months - is too much for most people and therefore they put an angelic smile on their faces and turn it all over to a mystery man with a benign smile who will protect them with a cloak of love - even if they work in the twin towers or are held in auswitz.

It's too much of a stretch for me to say that my god is 'what works', although it's close. There is no immorality in that because I rate myself more ethical and moral and caring than many religious people - people like Mohammed Atta for instance, or the camp guards at Auswitz, the vast majority of whom were religious and so would have no problem taking the oath.

Satwhat, still comparing yourself with other people, eh? You, like me, and everyone else is totally unique. Can only suggest that you follow your conscious and convections. Well aware of the Jehovah's, after my divorce, had this not so bad looking woman coming around week after week trying to convert me, and that book she was carrying was the explicit word of God. No, I didn't make advances toward her, a woman like that would drive me nuts.

My present wife is a keeper and keeping her was more important to me than anything else. The greatest thing she ever said to me, is that I am the best thing that ever happened to her in her entire life. Immigration was secondary to us, if rejected, I was fully prepared to leave this country. Looked at the USCIS as a game, but they are making the rules, and sometimes that made up the rules as we were playing the game. I'll play your game, you want evidence, I've evidence, you want proof, I've got proof. The problem my wife had with the oath was bearing arms for this country, she doesn't like to kill people, but the odds of being called to duty for a 53 year old woman are kind of nil, so we got through that.

[Captain Oates 910]

Well aware of the Jehovah's, after my divorce, had this not so bad looking woman coming around week after week trying to convert me, and that book she was carrying was the explicit word of God. No, I didn't make advances toward her, a woman like that would drive me nuts.

Actually this is the most demonic thing I have ever done in my life >

I was divorced and living alone for the first time in 14 years in a 1 bedroom apartment in a bad area . Thrown out from my wife and kids for an 18 year old boy she fancied - we were 36.

It was November in Yorkshire - dark, wet, horrible. A knock on the door and an angel of beauty stood there - with a bible. Of course I asked her in and she read me some superstitious drivel while I nodded politely.

The next week I was under my car on a 'ferret board' - like a skateboard with castors. I was laid on my back when a pair of legs appeared upside down. It was her and she asked if she could read me some more from the bible. She did while I looked up her dress all the while. After that I decided it was the fiery pit for me - nobody can enter the kingdom after that. So my opinions now cannot possibly get me in a worse position than I am in already.

I had a pal who used to go to christian camps in the country - man they were creeping under the tents all night long and bonking like rabbits ! Could be I have missed out on a lot by not being religious. I mean David Koresh was getting some and then some !

Perhaps I shouldn't be so pedantic and practise my philosophy of 'whatever works'

PS my wife was very religious and still is..

Edited May 17, 2010 by saywhat

[NickD 202]

Actually this is the most demonic thing I have ever done in my life >

I was divorced and living alone for the first time in 14 years in a 1 bedroom apartment in a bad area . Thrown out from my wife and kids for an 18 year old boy she fancied - we were 36.

It was November in Yorkshire - dark, wet, horrible. A knock on the door and an angel of beauty stood there - with a bible. Of course I asked her in and she read me some superstitious drivel while I nodded politely.

The next week I was under my car on a 'ferret board' - like a skateboard with castors. I was laid on my back when a pair of legs appeared upside down. It was her and she asked if she could read me some more from the bible. She did while I looked up her dress all the while. After that I decided it was the fiery pit for me - nobody can enter the kingdom after that. So my opinions now cannot possibly get me in a worse position than I am in already.

I had a pal who used to go to christian camps in the country - man they were creeping under the tents all night long and bonking like rabbits ! Could be I have missed out on a lot by not being religious. I mean David Koresh was getting some and then some !

Perhaps I shouldn't be so pedantic and practise my philosophy of 'whatever works'

PS my wife was very religious and still is..

LOL, we call that board on casters or those little wheels, a creeper. Think I went totally insane by buying another boat and just got off of mine adding brakes to the trailer. I enjoy going out on a moonless night and staring at the stars. Also love the North star when flying at night, nature and our heavenly bodies positivity amaze me, and I wonder why I am even here. Wanted to see the stars in Colombia, but it was cloudy all week while we were there. I didn't find peace in chasing all over Bogota with my wife trying to renew her passport so she could visit her mom. I find peace in nature and wonder how it was created. I do not find peace in reading the bible or sitting in a church and definitely not with dealing with the USCIS, of the EPA, or OSHA, or the IRS, or the ERA, of the DOS, or the FAA, or the FCC, or at airports. Was thinking about buying 40 acres of woods right on Lake Superior, but then would have to deal with the DNR and another tax assessor. Boating is fun in Lake Superior or Michigan, just run into the US Coast Guard, a great bunch of guys. Not fun in the smaller inland lakes where the DNR is more interested in whether you have a fishing license or not, and look for any faults.

As a kid, I found some 1 by 12" and built a ten foot skiff and paddled all over our lake without a life preserver, do that today, and would end up in jail. Hey, you got to be safe!

When I asked my wife about buying a boat, she said yes yes yes, this is my forth, is her first, but making dang sure I am following all of the regulations.

I find my God in nature and with my wife and dog. That was the God our forefathers had in mind in forming this great country. What happened?

Would enjoy meeting you, old chap.

[Captain Oates 910]

Lot of thinking in Common there Nick

Next time I am in Minnesota (In summer), I will look you up - I have been been there but that was another adventure.

Anyway, best close the thread now before the mods close it for us...

See you around the forums

Alan

[NickD 202]

Without giving the initial date of your green card, nor whether you are applying for marriage or the five year, could ask when you could apply for the N-400. Same question asked a zillion times, but if you asked it, we would be back on topic. Just found an interesting post for a change, so far, very friendly, no personal attacks, so maybe the mods will give us a break.

But good to hear questions or comments about the oath for USC, and could to have it questioned, the oath is the end of the journey, and it should be questioned. Many aspects of our government should be questioned, not simply blindly obeyed. This is the concept that formed this country, all men (and women) were created equal, and all should have a say in how we are governed. Actually I prefer not to be governed.

[Captain Oates 910]

Without giving the initial date of your green card, nor whether you are applying for marriage or the five year, could ask when you could apply for the N-400. Same question asked a zillion times, but if you asked it, we would be back on topic. Just found an interesting post for a change, so far, very friendly, no personal attacks, so maybe the mods will give us a break.

But good to hear questions or comments about the oath for USC, and could to have it questioned, the oath is the end of the journey, and it should be questioned. Many aspects of our government should be questioned, not simply blindly obeyed. This is the concept that formed this country, all men (and women) were created equal, and all should have a say in how we are governed. Actually I prefer not to be governed.

My three years as a GC holder living with USC spouse throughout is up in November so I can submit the n400 3 months early in August but not qualify for the interview until November. I need to have the photos done within 30 days of the n400,so the ones i got done recently are useless as Walgreen's put the date on the back.

Yes I like VJ as it's conducted nice and sweet for the most part - we all get tetchy from time to time but most folk mend their ways when it's mentioned they are going OTT. Not like in 'another place'.

[NickD 202]

My three years as a GC holder living with USC spouse throughout is up in November so I can submit the n400 3 months early in August but not qualify for the interview until November. I need to have the photos done within 30 days of the n400,so the ones i got done recently are useless as Walgreen's put the date on the back.

Yes I like VJ as it's conducted nice and sweet for the most part - we all get tetchy from time to time but most folk mend their ways when it's mentioned they are going OTT. Not like in 'another place'.

Your original question was when could you request the modified oath, the only conceivable time is right before you say the oath out loud and before you sign it at your interview. You are the first one to ask this question, difficult to say what comes afterwards. Would your IO simply cross out God? Or the entire phrase, So help me, God?

My step daughter could have applied last Tuesday, talked to her about it, was too busy at college with finals, moving, and stuff like that. Soon she will be 21 years of age. I normally let my own kids handle things like this, adults and all that, but could very easily fill out the form for her and definitely make out the check for $675.00 that she cannot do.

I handled all of immigration, when I asked my wife to marry me, she handled all the legal matters in both Venezuela and Colombia as I was dead lost, not only with the language, but with their laws as well. So figured I should handle that here. We had a monthly club of seven other USC males that married women from Latin America, three of the husbands had the attitude that since they wanted to come here, they could do all the paperwork. That was difficult for them, not only a legal language barrier, but dealing with our government agencies. They were calling me quite frequently for questions, my wife and daughter were very happy I handled that burden for them. But they did study the forms before we submitted them. Wife's IO went through the form and even asked her why she answered some questions the way she did. Can't get by that.

[Captain Oates 910]

Your original question was when could you request the modified oath, the only conceivable time is right before you say the oath out loud and before you sign it at your interview. You are the first one to ask this question, difficult to say what comes afterwards. Would your IO simply cross out God? Or the entire phrase, So help me, God?

My step daughter could have applied last Tuesday, talked to her about it, was too busy at college with finals, moving, and stuff like that. Soon she will be 21 years of age. I normally let my own kids handle things like this, adults and all that, but could very easily fill out the form for her and definitely make out the check for $675.00 that she cannot do.

I handled all of immigration, when I asked my wife to marry me, she handled all the legal matters in both Venezuela and Colombia as I was dead lost, not only with the language, but with their laws as well. So figured I should handle that here. We had a monthly club of seven other USC males that married women from Latin America, three of the husbands had the attitude that since they wanted to come here, they could do all the paperwork. That was difficult for them, not only a legal language barrier, but dealing with our government agencies. They were calling me quite frequently for questions, my wife and daughter were very happy I handled that burden for them. But they did study the forms before we submitted them. Wife's IO went through the form and even asked her why she answered some questions the way she did. Can't get by that.

Just realised that I do NOT understand the process. I assumed I could affirm.

I watched the video of the interview on the USCIS website and one has to raise one's hand and swear - but no mention of god...

Then I read part 13 of the n400 and that allows swearing or affirming and again no reference to god

Then part 14 of the n400 sets out the oath of allegiance and suddenly this time god is mentioned and no opportunity to affirm is mentioned.

I am ignorant as to whether asking (at the time of the interview) to affirm at THE CEREMONY later, will cause USCIS to kick me into the slow line for an individual ceremony... Given their occasional discrimination against unbelievers (as noted in previous cases), this slow timing could be deliberate in order to discourage people from claiming the first amendment.

Anyone know ? (through experience)whether individual ceremonies are required for affirmers ?

this is the video of the interview and test>>

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=76574bbe6cb97210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=d6369ddf801b3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD