God

[Captain Oates 910]

Actually, it is a tricky situation. Reading some of the links in the thread, the law allows us to take a modified oath, but some USCIS officers don't know that and will say that you cannot become a citizen if you don't believe in God.

They are then sent a memo by their superiors after we complain and it all gets sorted out.

However, in the meantime, we are stuck in limbo for another 6 months to a year while the law is asserted.

The question is, are we prepared to go through another exchange of letters and delays with the USCIS in order to stand on principle and the constitution and make things fairer for those who come after us, or do we just go along with it for an easy life ?

I suppose many women just cooked their husband's meals rather than fight for universal suffrage

I suppose many black people just kept a low profile rather than sitting at the front of the bus

The best thing I could give the U.S as a golden hello is to put myself in a bad position in the cause of protecting the constitution. 90% of Americans will give me no credit for that as their adherence to the constitution is lame when it comes to atheists who are equated with criminals and communists and people of no morals. In Europe, atheists are generally seen as thinking people of principle, but that isn't the case here.

Perhaps I should do as the Romans while I am in Rome and if their constitution withers because they won't stand up for it, it's their own fault.

It's a dilemma - why should I care for the constitution when the natives don't ?

But if my naturalization is delayed for 6 months because I won't acknowledge god, and if in the meantime I am deported because of some unfair formality such as a traffic violation which is aggravated by some factor, do I really want to be part of a country that would do that to me ?

Quite a lot to ponder - on balance I think I will risk it and ask for the modified oath. Then at least I will be able to call myself a real American by virtue of something more than just a certificate.

[antda 13]

Hi Saywhat,

Lol....By all means, yes, if you are legally allowed to do so, go ahead and ask for a modified oath! You have every right to do so, and especially more so since you paid for the privillage to be a US Citizen....

They shouldn't assume that just because one person believes in God, that all others have to believe in God...

And isn't there something legal thing that also says that there is a "separation between church and state" too.....

That's fine, that if you want to affirm the oath instead of swear the oath.....

As long as you say some sort of oath, then that should be ok too...

Lol..As for me, I had no problems with the religious aspect of the oath...

However, I did though have problems with a group ceremony....So I asked and explained my need for a private one instead....

And likewise, you can opt for an affirmaion instead of a swearing to God....

Just explain and ask of such when you go for your interview and/or meet with an immigration officer, and hopefully, you won't have any problems with that either...

My point is: The USCIS shouldn't assume that just because one person wants their oath ceremony one way, that another person wants it another way, regardless of what the accomodation is....And yes, if you are legally entitled to any type of accomodation for your oath ceremony...By all means, ask for such! You have every right to do such! Fight for what you believe in (or in your case, not believe in)!

Hope this helps. Good luck with the rest of your journey too and in getting your modified oath too..

Ant

Just doing my research for the ceremony which should be around Christmas time if I manage to pass the English test.

(must remember hood, trunk, fender etc)

I am not religious so I will need to affirm. The oath at the interview sounds pretty godless according to the the USCIS video so that's ok

The oath at the ceremony is my question:

I have seen videos of two hundred people all taking the oath of allegiance and saying 'so help me god'

I suppose I can mention this when I meet the USCIS representative at the ceremony, but do we all stand there at the oath while I say one thing and the others say another ?

I would have to remember the oath if I am not repeating the words of the head honcho who is conducting the ceremony

Anyone any experience of this please ?

thanks

Actually, it is a tricky situation. Reading some of the links in the thread, the law allows us to take a modified oath, but some USCIS officers don't know that and will say that you cannot become a citizen if you don't believe in God.

They are then sent a memo by their superiors after we complain and it all gets sorted out.

However, in the meantime, we are stuck in limbo for another 6 months to a year while the law is asserted.

The question is, are we prepared to go through another exchange of letters and delays with the USCIS in order to stand on principle and the constitution and make things fairer for those who come after us, or do we just go along with it for an easy life ?

I suppose many women just cooked their husband's meals rather than fight for universal suffrage

I suppose many black people just kept a low profile rather than sitting at the front of the bus

The best thing I could give the U.S as a golden hello is to put myself in a bad position in the cause of protecting the constitution. 90% of Americans will give me no credit for that as their adherence to the constitution is lame when it comes to atheists who are equated with criminals and communists and people of no morals. In Europe, atheists are generally seen as thinking people of principle, but that isn't the case here.

Perhaps I should do as the Romans while I am in Rome and if their constitution withers because they won't stand up for it, it's their own fault.

It's a dilemma - why should I care for the constitution when the natives don't ?

But if my naturalization is delayed for 6 months because I won't acknowledge god, and if in the meantime I am deported because of some unfair formality such as a traffic violation which is aggravated by some factor, do I really want to be part of a country that would do that to me ?

Quite a lot to ponder - on balance I think I will risk it and ask for the modified oath. Then at least I will be able to call myself a real American by virtue of something more than just a certificate.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[Captain Oates 910]

Hope this helps. Good luck with the rest of your journey too and in getting your modified oath too..

Ant

Hi Ant

Didn't know there were private ceremonies on request - heck we live and learn

I will be ok with the multitude thing with their Sunday best on - so no problema. They have the ceremonies around the State and sometimes they have em in my town. As long as I don't have to wear one of those big Uncle Sam hats it should be ok.

Some cheerleaders in red white and blue would be good - especially if relatives aren't allowed - then the wifey can't see me taking a sneaky gander !

All I have to do then is steer clear of Arizona until I lose my accent

[antda 13]

Hi Ant

Didn't know there were private ceremonies on request - heck we live and learn

I will be ok with the multitude thing with their Sunday best on - so no problema. They have the ceremonies around the State and sometimes they have em in my town. As long as I don't have to wear one of those big Uncle Sam hats it should be ok.

Some cheerleaders in red white and blue would be good - especially if relatives aren't allowed - then the wifey can't see me taking a sneaky gander !

All I have to do then is steer clear of Arizona until I lose my accent

Saywhat-

Lol..I had to twist their arms and legs, (well, actually I submitted 3-4 pages of legal evidence and a letter explaining about such) for the private ceremony request...But yes, it can be done, very rarely and under extreme circumstances...

Lol..Nevertheless, most people are ok with the group ceremony thing...which is fine too....

I don't know of cheerleaders are there...lol...But you'll have fun watching the Obama video and USCIS speech though...

And no, I don't think you'll have to wear a big uncle sam hat either (unless you want to..lol..)...

By the way, if you want to quote the USCIS with a good argument, as to why you need a modified oath:

The freedom of religion is...

The right to believe in a relgion or the right not to believe in a religion...

(lol..it's in the study guide of civics/history questions...)

Saywhat chooses not to believe in religion. It is there right not to do so, therefore their oath should reflect such...

Hope this helps too. Good luck.

Ant

Edited May 14, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[Nik+Heather 121]

It's a dilemma - why should I care for the constitution when the natives don't ?

I'm a "native" and I care. :)If Nik goes through Naturalization, I think that your experiences will be valuable to us as well!

[Captain Oates 910]

I'm a "native" and I care. :)If Nik goes through Naturalization, I think that your experiences will be valuable to us as well!

Yes you are right - lots of people care about the constitution - if it wasn't for the constitution and the fairness and equality it guarantees, I would be out of here on the next plane. These States that refuse to allow unbelievers to hold State Office or State Employment or even give evidence in court ! are the enemies of the constitution and I am the friend of the constitution. The Fed Gov should sue em.

I will report back in detail as to how it actually goes at the ceremony. The swearing at the interview doesn't involve any references to god - I know that coz I have watched the USCIS video. So it's just the ceremony where I have to get it right.

Have a read of this : >>

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/erbe/2009/02/17/arkansas-5-other-states-ban-atheists-from-public-service-seriously

Edited May 14, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 910]

The black sheep of the family:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstitutions.htm

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

If I were the President of the United States, I would withdraw all troops from outside the US immediately. I would stop animal testing and euthaniation tomorrow. I would raise taxes on the pump and provide free health care for every citizen. I would do so many things that need to be done. But wait . . . I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, because the US is a democracy since 1920 (Britain since 1928), when women were allowed to vote.

Hence many battles can't be won even by the most powerful man of the most powerful nation on Earth: the President of the United States of America.

Politics, by definition, require to compromise, and to solicit votes. Transfer this to a lower scale of our lifes and you'll find out that some fights are not worth fighting. I too don't think that there was some virgin 2011 years ago who had a son and he was named Jesus and that was actually our deity, the creator of the Universe in carne. Hey, I have a M.A. in philosophy and am simply too intelligent to buy such non-sensical nonsense even if it was presented to me on a gold, not silver, platter.

But even though we laugh when the dumb-as-hay Sarah Palin (who made millions this year from her ghost-written book alone -- that tells you something about Americans in general) claims America is a Christian nation, all you need to do is look at the green bucks. "In God we trust." Yep, it's right on there. Do you seriously think that in this nation that guarantees freedom of religion, a Mr. Barack Hussein Obama had become President had he openly stated he is a Muslim or, did not believe in God? Oh my . . . not in a million years, be assured of that.

So while some Americans still fight to teach our school children that humans and dinosaurs lived happily on Earth together a few thousand years ago (after all, God created Earth about 5K years ago), while others want every reference to "God" erased from public places such as schools and universities, where does that leave us poor immigrants? Is it worth the effort and sacrifice necessary to omit God from our Oath? If you don't believe in God in any form, and if even nature as you perceive it is not good enough, then what's the problem, I wonder?

You want to make a stand, and I almost wanted to do the same when I had to get the vaccinations I didn't want. Yes, I could simply have refused based on -- get this -- religious grounds, but that would have slowed my AOS down by 6 to 12 months. So while it disagree with the God reference in the Oath, I feel it's not worth fighting over it.

#### it.

[NickD 202]

Saywhat,

Still feel you are taking that "so help me God" phrase too literally and putting a burden on yourself that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

There is no religious connotation with that phrase, simply means you will try your best to follow the contents of the oath.

If there is a religious connotation with that phrase, you are creating it. So help me God!

[Captain Oates 910]

Saywhat,

Still feel you are taking that "so help me God" phrase too literally and putting a burden on yourself that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

There is no religious connotation with that phrase, simply means you will try your best to follow the contents of the oath.

If there is a religious connotation with that phrase, you are creating it. So help me God!

I know what you are saying guys. There are 300 million people to convert to my way of thinking and I have never even converted anyone - not even in Europe. So raising the issue isn't going to cause anyone to think. It's a lot of effort to gain little -- or more probably nothing at the risk of the USCIS making my life hell (again). When I was single, I did used to go with Catholic girls a lot coz they think the pre marriage stuff is really dirty/evil/guilty and it gives em a great buzz; So I don't think religion is totally without it's uses. Oops touch of English flippancy/facetiousness there, but my research shows its true.

I have this lingering thought that I have a responsibility to do my tiny little bit towards making the US less theocratic and to move them back to the constitution, and I just feel I owe the civil rights movement and the suffrage movement etc a little contribution of my own. I am never going to join happy clappy volunteer groups or a church like the USCIS suggests I do after naturalization, so I can only contribute to the morality pool of the US by adding one drop into this huge ocean we call America (As the CEO of BP might say). It will help me not a bit. It might hinder me. Doing it might help those who come after - but again by an infinitesimal amount if at all. I guess Jefferson stuck his neck out a long way on our behalf by backing these concepts and we are living off his efforts for the rights we do have - but after all, what greater respect can I show the US than to make sure my vows are made sincerely and not by swearing to someone that I don't believe in who is coughing away in the volcanic ash cloud ...

At the same time I acknowledge that most of the other 300 will only be able to read the three sentences that they managed for their English test and therefore I might be the only one who knows the nuances of what I am saying anyway.

It's a two pipe problem dear Watson

[NickD 202]

As a US citizen you can run for the senate, but you will have to say this:

"The Senate Oath of Office:I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

or this if you elect to join the military, think you are too old for that:

"In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Religion was never brought up to us in the immigration process, So help me God.

[Captain Oates 910]

As a US citizen you can run for the senate, but you will have to say this:

"The Senate Oath of Office:I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

or this if you elect to join the military, think you are too old for that:

"In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Religion was never brought up to us in the immigration process, So help me God.

Heck it gets worse:

Hopefully I will be too old to parachute into Iran (next on the list). My granddad was called up in the last draft for the first war coz he was 33 with 5 small kids and they excluded him from the earlier drafts. Then they decided to get anyone and he lasted a couple of months before he was killed. My dad was in Burma during the 2nd round. He was away 6 years. So we are not a pacifist family as such, but we know what the deal is too and we would rather not.

We drove down to the petrified forest State Park near Ellensburg and there was a brass plaque explaining how many millions of years old the fossils were. Someone had taken a knife and scratched hell out of the plaque and written 'WICKED LIES' on it. It was done very angrily and violently

The world is 6k years old according to these dinosaur jockeys.

At least I am just gobby about these matters but these guys are seriously violent against people and property.

There is one thing that the UK is much better at and that is APATHY. The level of APATHY in the UK allows everyone to shrug and say I don't know and I don't care and they live happily ever after. The extraordinary passion and energy and commitment of the American people means that we don't have the protection of apathy. That's why the constitution is so important - without that I would be burned at the stake as non believers used to be before the constitution.

I saw that story of the Colorado military base where people who refused to join a certain church had their training records altered so they were failed on the course and rejected !

It's no joke and it's not just theory and postulating wishy washy ideas off the ceiling - these religious zealots are extremely dangerous people - they can ruin us, break us and if we are abortion doctors they will shoot us in front of our families.

Only a constant assertion of the constitution and adherence to the law can hold the line.

Only people stating their RIGHT not be religious and showing up in statistics of the USCIS etc can stop the the zealots closing in to finish us off in the time honoured method of zealots throughout history

I don't really need to evangelise them any more, I just want to be protected from their demands.. (such as the oath)

[NickD 202]

Do you really understand the meaning of "so help me God", I don't.

Appears early USA Christians objected to this because the interpret it as swearing to God as in http://volokh.com/posts/1233373022.shtml.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/oath attempts to give a legal description of "so help me God" but really doesn't explain the meaning of this four word phrase.

Ironically, this phrase is not at the end of the oath for our highest office, Obama wanted to add it, but received objections both from atheist and legal members that is not in the original constitution. If you recall, Roberts didn't even read the oath correctly, and it was redone in the next day with some issue as to whether a bible was present or not in this private oath.

Swearing swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God, is yet another example of this phrase in even the lowest court of law.

Could be part of our old English common at the time that is difficult to interpret today, I swear to God, would make a lot more sense. Perhaps that phrase should be related to tradition more than anything else.

To say so help me God would be far more appropriate to me if I was sick, hungry, lonely, etc. and couldn't receive any help from my fellow human beings so pleading with a higher entity for help if even such an entity exists. Hey, have to ask for help from somebody. Then making this phrase at the end of a commitment, such as any kind of oath.

You seem to be well versed in the English language, more so than this American that has butchered this language, what does the phrase, "so help me God" mean to you? Are you asking this God to help you abide by this oath? But again, the word "god" does not have to have any religious or spiritual significance. God can be any nation, person, or a spiritual entity that has power over you.

Perhaps the key issue should be the contents of the oath itself. Say for example you are told to bear arms for this country and refused, would the USCIS deport you? They sure legally can, you broke your oath.

Wonder about the freedom they even talk about, from the time I was three years old, was forced to go to a day care center because my mom had to work. Followed by 13 years required to attend schools and six years of active military service. I was already 24 years of age until I finally had a say in my life. But too stupid to even make good decisions, all decisions were made for me, so married the wrong woman and paid dearly for that. Choosing the right woman with experience resulted in having the USCIS over my life for another four years, wondering if they would let me keep her or not. Where is the freedom in that? And if I don't pay my taxes whether I approve of how they spend them or not, would end up in jail. And the war I was stuck with wasn't even for the freedom of this country, just a probable threat just like all the wars we have been in after WW II. And today we are fighting for freedom of countries that don't even want us there.

Nothing makes sense including the phrase, so help me God.

[Captain Oates 910]

Nothing makes sense including the phrase, so help me God.

Interesting point about a naturalized citizen refusing to serve and being deported. Actually, I doubt that because breaking an oath is not a reason to strip someone of citizenship - only fraud during the process plus treason perhaps are grounds. It would be hard to prove because a person could say there was no fraud and they really meant the oath when they made it. I reckon they would charge a person for not answering the draft and impose whatever penalty there is for that. After the punishment, if they were GC they would then be deported but not if they were a citizen. The oath simply puts them on the hook for punishment rather than loss of citizenship. Actually it's superfluous because a GC person 18 to 26 has already signed up for selective service and will be punished /deported

I reckon the Americans are entitled to their own language in their own country so I try and zip it and remain impassive. Occasionally I hear something even on mainsteam news channels like 'He was knocked down by the car and drug along the street' and the pain to my sensibilities is greater than the physical pain of the guy who was 'drug'.

I think I am coming to a sensible compromise. If the officer starts to give me a hard time and says it will delay the process for 6 months or he says I can't become a citizen unless I am a believer in the supreme being, I will give in, say the oath and then fight em afterwards with full power for 5 years. Heck I might even sue em and get half a mill ! If it's easy and there are no threats or delays, I will affirm.

ps If anyone is considering committing a crime - do it in front of a non believer in one of the 5 States (link above) who will not employ non believers, or allow them to run for office, or give evidence in court. The non believers who witness your crime are not allowed to give evidence against you. Unintended consequences or what !

When they came up with that one they must have assumed that unbelievers are bad people and would be giving evidence on behalf of other bad people charged with a crime - if the only witness to the assassination of a Senator from a certain party was a non believer, they would change that law tout suite if no sooner - and then change it back after the trial.

As always, the middle way is the best, and I shall seek to achieve my goal and persist in it until I win, but in a way that carries the minimum risk or inconvenience to myself. Martyrdom is for people with a high pain threshold - not me.

[Christi and Ian 24]

My husband is atheist and will be struggling with this same issue when the time comes. The "just say it, it doesn't mean anything" argument, I find rather ridiculous. My husband would say "so help me tooth fairy" or "so help me Father Christmas" before he ever said, "so help me God".

For the record, I am not an atheist, but I fully support anyone's right to freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

If you're principals tell you not to say it, don't.