I need serious help. 1st marriage of hubby called marriage fraud

[shemarienp 0]

he was never even questioned about it and had no idea she'd done time for it until we found out a week prior to the interview while researching.

What, exactly, were you researching one week prior to the interview that went so wrong? Did you have a premonition that it was not going to go well?

We knew there were going to be problems relating to the first marriage, but we didn't know what we were in for. That was really our fault; we just figured, hey we are honest people, we are going to be ok. We did some prep but didn't realize, or didn't face, just how serious it could be. I am not someone well-versed with immigration. Well, now we sure are facing it and I am trying to learn all I can.

We are going over the first marriage with a fine toothed comb, and he is very detailed. I feel like he is definitely being honest and open about it.

[nycgirl 13]

Why should we make it so difficult for people to immigrate to this country?

As for my marriage not actually being their business, it sure didn't seem like it in that interview. She even thought my religion was her business and said she didn't believe that my parents had no problem with me becoming a Muslim.

What happened to 'give me your poor, your tired, your hungry...'? Immigrants were useful to America when this country was being built, but now that it's been built, who needs 'em, right? Not saying that you're saying that, I'm talking about the attitude there seems to be about immigrants. Instead of treating immigrants like human beings, immigration treats them like trash washing up on our shores. And then they treat citizens who marry immigrants like people who have married beneath their class. Perhaps I am just angry because of how things are going for us, and maybe I'm looking at things from a skewed perspective, but there IS a problem with immigration and how we treat immigrants in this country.

Face the facts. Immigrants with "red flags" from "high fraud" countries get a hard time. Immigrants with no "red flags" from "low fraud" countries get an easier time. You husband's case is the former. What you are experiencing is not an "immigration" problem, its a knee jerk reaction from the government to a FRAUD problem. AS for questions about your religion and your family....they are VERY normal questions. Heck, they can even ask you about your sex life if they want!!

[shemarienp 0]

Anyway, all, you all can judge however you want. It's silly of me to look for validation on an internet bulletin board, so I will stop now. People have been helpful here and have told me what I really need to know, so I have gotten all the help on this thread that I can. I'm thankful for those who have posted replies that are helpful via the knowledge they have imparted. Good luck to anyone still going through immigration.

[nycgirl 13]

I am not someone well-versed with immigration. Well, now we sure are facing it and I am trying to learn all I can.

We are going over the first marriage with a fine toothed comb, and he is very detailed. I feel like he is definitely being honest and open about it.

For someone who is not well-versed in immigration, you sure seems to know what's WRONG with it.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

You are not being judged (well, UNLESS you consider my opinion a judgment)

The fact is your husband has many strikes against him.

1. And it is unfortunate, but reality, is that he is from Pakistan

2. He overstayed his first visa, not leaving when he was supposed to

3. He married a woman later charged with conspiring to commit marriage fraud

4. He divorced prior to adjusting status, but chose not to avail himself of remedies that are in place for victims

5. He continued to stay in the USA for years, presumably without lawful status, and presumably earning income, wihout authorization

You ahve a lot more to learn. I wouldn't exit this thread so fast, if I were you.

Anyway, all, you all can judge however you want. It's silly of me to look for validation on an internet bulletin board, so I will stop now. People have been helpful here and have told me what I really need to know, so I have gotten all the help on this thread that I can. I'm thankful for those who have posted replies that are helpful via the knowledge they have imparted. Good luck to anyone still going through immigration.

[jpaula 20]

Take it as having some devil's advocates, a gov't proxy, and thus as a way to make your case stronger. Just remember that, no matter the opinion of others, the burden of proof in this case is on you. It is a rather frustrating thing to accept, but you will make a much stronger case if you keep it in the back of your head. Much luck to you and your husband.

[TBoneTX 43,489]

Much luck to you and your husband.

Indeed... and, OP, avoid running off yet. People here care about you, and the progress and outcome of your situation can prove educational to others. I happen to admire the sincerity and consummate literacy of your posts!

[rlogan 2,036]

So you want every Tom, ####### and Harry to be able to just cross our borders, come here, wreak havoc and put Americans at risk?

I understand that you are frustrated that they are giving you a hard time, but understand that there are reasons why immigration is the way it is. They may not be the most efficient government agency, but when it is all said and done, I am glad there is some entity out there keeping the crazies out of my backyard. Unfortunately, innocent people do get caught in the crossfire.

Hi Zee Bee. In kindness and sincerity -

There are something on the order of 20 million illegal immigrants in the USA. So the idea that the legal immigration system is an effective border control is ludicrous. If there were only a hundred or even a thousand illegal immigrants here, you would have a point. But we are actually talking about 7% of the entire country being here illegally.

The people who want to come here to perpetrate crime, work illegally, or take out the twin towers are going to figure out a way around or through the legal system. It's easy. 20 million in numbers proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is far, far easier than legal immigration, and that's why it is done.

The legal immigration expense and hassles mainly serve as a burden to the vast, vast majority of decent people wanting to immigrate. Right here in my state on the canadian border I spent a summer going back and forth on a river between the USA and canada with everyone else there - never once going to a checkpoint because there is no checkpoint. We just went to the closest town, which was in canada, and it would have been stupid to travel to an immigration checkpoint when you are just getting groceries. This is true for thousands of miles of borders between canada, mexico, and the USA - not to mention entry by ship from anywhere in the world at all.

So in my humble opinion it is not that "sometimes" innocent people get caught up in it. Innocent people are the vast majority caught up in it. The other 20 million are just here illegally and don't file dozens of forms, pay thousands of dollars in application fees, endure bureaucracy, etc.

I am not grateful at all they have made it difficult for my wife to be here legally.

I am sympathetic to her feelings but cautious about her husband.

Without malice,

cheers.

I do see some warning signs here for the OP and my friend you had better get those court documents on the ex-wife and look through them, and do what you can to independently assess the veracity of the things your husband is telling you.

Edited April 23, 2009 by rlogan

[justashooter 430]

The people who want to come here to ... take out the twin towers...

were all mena men here legally, on student or tourist visas.

[rlogan 2,036]

The people who want to come here to ... take out the twin towers...

were all mena men here legally, on student or tourist visas.

Hi justashooter. Also no ill will here. warm greetings.

But actually, no - they were here illegally under a conspiracy to commit murder, falsely answering questions on their immigration papers in order to obtain visas. They were not tourists, nor were they pursuing University degrees. Those were false pretenses, every bit as much so as sham marriages.

It shows you how stupid the whole exercise is. Do Al-Qaeda operatives honestly answer questions about whether they belong to an organization that has declared war on or is actively working for overthrow of the US government, etc? Nope.

How many airport hijackings have been prevented because the hijacker confessed to having a bomb or weapon on his person when asked? Zero.

We have to recognize that it is simply a myth that the immigration laws and bureaucracy are effective in keeping out illegal aliens (20 million and counting) or terrorists.

If I wanted to take out a railroad or a petrochemical plant or whatever then I'd fly to mexico, cross the border like the millions of others have, and go on about my business. Or get a student visa, etc.

The fact there is so little terrorism is evidence that it is not the problem our government hypes it up to be - not that the government has been effective in keeping it out with the immigration laws and bureaucracy.

There may come a point where our poster shemarienp decides to quit the legal approach and just figures out how to stay together like the other 20 million doing it. ( some estimates are double that)

By one estimate there are four million people a year entering illegally. http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/i...en_numbers.html

So maybe lets not be quite so sure of ourselves in criticizing her frustration, and how effective it is in keeping illegal immigrants out.

[coldwatersurf 5]

i must agree with Zeebee on this one. and i do see everyone's point of view. However, these hurdles are there for a reason. could be b/c of the terrorists attacks or being cautious that the intending immigrant is not a public charge. and the list goes on.

As for not being grateful that the immigration process is difficult..... its VERY FRUSTRATING... however, again, there are reasons why it is this way. I'm grateful that they are taking these steps to protect their country. I personally wont immigrate to a location where the country has lenient rules.

And yes its unfortunate innocent people get caught in all this mess.

Again this is just my opinion. no attack here on anyone's situation

[lucyrich 19]

I just found this thread today, and I won't go over all the points raised, but I'll mention one thing nobody else has. In the original post, you write:

they do believe that the marriage (at least on my side, which is all we need) is valid.

Actually, that's not all you need. If they believe he entered your current marriage for the purpose of obtaining an immigration benefit, regardless of whether or not you entered it with bona fide intentions, they have the responsibility to deny the immigration benefit. But there are some sticky burden of proof issues, and they'll sometimes let an ambiguous case through rather than trying to make a big effort to deny it.

There are two types of marriage fraud that immigration authorities commonly see. One is called "two party fraud", where both parties are aware of the fraud and conspiring to commit it. Often, the immigrant pays a US Citizen to enter a marriage of convenience, they don't live together, and they work together to deceive the authorities so that the immigrant can get a green card and the US Citizen can be paid. But the other type is called "one party fraud", where the US Citizen believes the marriage is valid, and it IS 100% valid from the USC's point of view, but the immigrant is attempting to deceive both the US Citizen and the immigration authorities.

If we hypothetically assume they believe his first marriage is valid (and it seems the case is a long way from satisfying that hypothetical at this point), it's still possible they believe he is committing one party fraud at this time. Note that I'm taking no position on this matter, because I don't know enough to take a position, but you should be aware that it's possible they may be thinking along these lines, and the two of you may need to defend against that sort of thinking.

But the issue of your current marriage is moot until the issue of his previous marriage is settled. If they believe he was in a fraudulent marriage before, then he's ineligible, regardless of how valid the current marriage is.

Some background:

In immigration matters, the intending immigrant always has the burden of proving eligibility for the immigration benefit. The standard of proof is by a "preponderance of the evidence". In other words, when a reasonable neutral party looks at all the evidence on the record, it's got to look more likely than not that the immigrant is eligible. The government doesn't have to prove ineligibility in order to deny; it's up to the immigrant to prove eligibility.

In criminal matters, the government has the burden of proof that the accused is guilty. The standard of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". The defendant doesn't have to prove anything in order to be set free; it's up to the government to prove guilt in order to punish.

You could imagine ambiguous situations where a neutral party would say it doesn't seem like the immigrant has shown eligibility, but there's still room for doubt as to whether an outright crime has been committed. In such an ambiguous situation, the immigration benefit would be denied, but there would be no criminal conviction. That's a very common situation in marriage fraud cases. Usually, they deny the green card, deport the alien, and don't take action in criminal court against the US Citizen or the immigrant.

Since his first wife had a criminal conviction of marriage fraud, it's going to be an uphill battle proving that his intentions in the first marriage were bona fide. And it's up to him to prove it.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

My point exactly! However, the OP has not returned to this thread for several days. I have reason to believe she has choosen not to follow this thread because perhaps she isn't interested in hearing anything but advice that indicates she will ultimately be successful. That's not preparing for a case, in my opinion. The alien and his spouse need to anticipate any line of questioning, and be armed with answers. Answers to difficult questions; answers to questions that she believes right now are outside the purview of the adjudicating officer's role. And in such a case, their answers need to be so convincing that the individual posing them ends up determining that the line of questioning has no foundation. Let's hope that she is using this hiatus to get to know her husband a little better so that she can assess whether his interests are/were genuine.

I just found this thread today, and I won't go over all the points raised, but I'll mention one thing nobody else has. In the original post, you write:

they do believe that the marriage (at least on my side, which is all we need) is valid.

Actually, that's not all you need. If they believe he entered your current marriage for the purpose of obtaining an immigration benefit, regardless of whether or not you entered it with bona fide intentions, they have the responsibility to deny the immigration benefit. But there are some sticky burden of proof issues, and they'll sometimes let an ambiguous case through rather than trying to make a big effort to deny it.

There are two types of marriage fraud that immigration authorities commonly see. One is called "two party fraud", where both parties are aware of the fraud and conspiring to commit it. Often, the immigrant pays a US Citizen to enter a marriage of convenience, they don't live together, and they work together to deceive the authorities so that the immigrant can get a green card and the US Citizen can be paid. But the other type is called "one party fraud", where the US Citizen believes the marriage is valid, and it IS 100% valid from the USC's point of view, but the immigrant is attempting to deceive both the US Citizen and the immigration authorities.

If we hypothetically assume they believe his first marriage is valid (and it seems the case is a long way from satisfying that hypothetical at this point), it's still possible they believe he is committing one party fraud at this time. Note that I'm taking no position on this matter, because I don't know enough to take a position, but you should be aware that it's possible they may be thinking along these lines, and the two of you may need to defend against that sort of thinking.

But the issue of your current marriage is moot until the issue of his previous marriage is settled. If they believe he was in a fraudulent marriage before, then he's ineligible, regardless of how valid the current marriage is.

Some background:

In immigration matters, the intending immigrant always has the burden of proving eligibility for the immigration benefit. The standard of proof is by a "preponderance of the evidence". In other words, when a reasonable neutral party looks at all the evidence on the record, it's got to look more likely than not that the immigrant is eligible. The government doesn't have to prove ineligibility in order to deny; it's up to the immigrant to prove eligibility.

In criminal matters, the government has the burden of proof that the accused is guilty. The standard of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". The defendant doesn't have to prove anything in order to be set free; it's up to the government to prove guilt in order to punish.

You could imagine ambiguous situations where a neutral party would say it doesn't seem like the immigrant has shown eligibility, but there's still room for doubt as to whether an outright crime has been committed. In such an ambiguous situation, the immigration benefit would be denied, but there would be no criminal conviction. That's a very common situation in marriage fraud cases. Usually, they deny the green card, deport the alien, and don't take action in criminal court against the US Citizen or the immigrant.

Since his first wife had a criminal conviction of marriage fraud, it's going to be an uphill battle proving that his intentions in the first marriage were bona fide. And it's up to him to prove it.

[rlogan 2,036]

i must agree with Zeebee on this one. and i do see everyone's point of view. However, these hurdles are there for a reason. could be b/c of the terrorists attacks or being cautious that the intending immigrant is not a public charge. and the list goes on.

Hi boredriver. A sincere good day to you.

So all the government has to do is give you a phony reason (note again 20 million illegal aliens not kept out by these hurdles) - and you are happy to go through money and expense yourself for no real reason.

You can see the twin towers taken out and three thousand people die - but believe immigration laws keep those very people out.

I think what is really going on is that decent people cannot believe that all they go through is for naught. So in spite of 20 million to 40 million illegal immigrants or whatever it is -

they just keep operating in a mythical world where there are no illigal immigrants in their minds. That immigration hurdles "work".

I do wish you well. Take no bad feelings from this, please. One must be able to politely disagree in friendship.