My Step Sons Citizenship Status after Mom becomes a U.S. Citizen - Spend the $1200.USD? I dont think so!

[yuna628 9,897]

Personally I think doing due diligence is important in immigration matters. Why should we as citizens count on our government officials to understand their own rules or even do the right thing? Getting extra documentation is like having an insurance policy.

[TBoneTX 47,886]

14 hours ago, yuna628 said:

Personally I think doing due diligence is important in immigration matters. Why should we as citizens count on our government officials to understand their own rules or even do the right thing? Getting extra documentation is like having an insurance policy.

The Federal government has unlimited time and resources to make our lives miserable.  Doesn't it make sense, per the above, to cut off the government before it can get started with this?

[Dashinka 26,099]

On 7/31/2025 at 9:10 AM, mam521 said:

Food for thought, for those interested in reading.  It's a couple of years old and is more pertaining to the fee of the N-600, but also talks about WHY one may like to fork over the bucks.  The references are listed and there are a lot of footnotes accompanying the references.  

 

https://www.nyulawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NYULawReview-Volume-95-Issue-4-Bedoya.pdf

 

 

 

Interesting read.  What piques my curiosity is if a child derives citizenship through a parent's naturalization, isn't that child also recorded in the SAVE database as a derived citizen?  The posted review seems to indicate that only happens when the child gets an CoC via an N600.  The discussion on fee increases, waivers issued, etc. was very interesting indeed going from $160 in 1998 to $600 in 2010 to $1170 in 2016 to now $1335/1385 depending on online vs paper filing, a massive increase in 27 or so years.

[mam521 2,646]

Just now, Dashinka said:

Interesting read.  What piques my curiosity is if a child derives citizenship through a parent's naturalization, isn't that child also recorded in the SAVE database as a derived citizen?  The posted review seems to indicate that only happens when the child gets an CoC via an N600.  The discussion on fee increases, waivers issued, etc. was very interesting indeed going from $160 in 1998 to $600 in 2010 to $1170 in 2016 to now $1335/1385 depending on online vs paper filing, a massive increase in 27 or so years.

I found it intriguing.  I think another challenge is wording.  "Evidence of" and "proof of" are not the same thing.  So you get a passport - the DOS says it's evidence of, not necessarily proof of citizenship.  Is it a loophole for the government to get outta dodge?  So strange.  

 

In general, it is interesting to me that there's still a lot of "manual steps" one must take after getting citizenship.  It doesn't make sense that, if SAVE exists, that I have to go update my status with the SSA.  My kids also have to be done separately.  Same with my state DL - they use SAVE verification, so why do I have to turn up with these documents to update my status?  Work authorization - same thing.  Proving identity, sure but if the status is in the system....

[Dashinka 26,099]

5 minutes ago, mam521 said:

I found it intriguing.  I think another challenge is wording.  "Evidence of" and "proof of" are not the same thing.  So you get a passport - the DOS says it's evidence of, not necessarily proof of citizenship.  Is it a loophole for the government to get outta dodge?  So strange.  

 

In general, it is interesting to me that there's still a lot of "manual steps" one must take after getting citizenship.  It doesn't make sense that, if SAVE exists, that I have to go update my status with the SSA.  My kids also have to be done separately.  Same with my state DL - they use SAVE verification, so why do I have to turn up with these documents to update my status?  Work authorization - same thing.  Proving identity, sure but if the status is in the system....

I agree, of course with the DoS, it would be hard to use SAVE as natural citizens are not included.  Hence someone has to send in a BC, or CoN, or parents CoN, or CoC to get a passport and face the possibility of losing it via our mail system and the subsequent N565 fee ($505/555).

 

As an aside, back in 2018 when my wife naturalized, the passport office/agency attended the ceremony and extended the offer for newly naturalized citizens to come to their office to apply for a passport within the next 30 days, without the need for immediate travel plans, and not requiring one to relinquish their CoN.  My wife and I went the next day as her ceremony was in the afternoon and the passport agency was already closed by the time the ceremony was finished, they copied her CoN, and had a supervisor approve the copy, and since then my wife's CoN has not left the safe.  COVID seemed to change that and at a recent naturalization ceremony I attended for my cousins (also in Detroit), there was no passport agency reps there, and I understand you can only go to a passport office agency in an emergency.

[mam521 2,646]

3 minutes ago, Dashinka said:

I agree, of course with the DoS, it would be hard to use SAVE as natural citizens are not included.  Hence someone has to send in a BC, or CoN, or parents CoN, or CoC to get a passport and face the possibility of losing it via our mail system and the subsequent N565 fee ($505/555).

 

As an aside, back in 2018 when my wife naturalized, the passport office/agency attended the ceremony and extended the offer for newly naturalized citizens to come to their office to apply for a passport within the next 30 days, without the need for immediate travel plans, and not requiring one to relinquish their CoN.  My wife and I went the next day as her ceremony was in the afternoon and the passport agency was already closed by the time the ceremony was finished, they copied her CoN, and had a supervisor approve the copy, and since then my wife's CoN has not left the safe.  COVID seemed to change that and at a recent naturalization ceremony I attended for my cousins (also in Detroit), there was no passport agency reps there, and I understand you can only go to a passport office agency in an emergency.

I suppose with the citizens vs naturalized or derived citizens.  But, a birth certificate is a lot cheaper.  SAVE exists, so if the authorized acceptance agent can verify your identity and take a copy of the original certificate, there's no real reason to provide the original for it to get lost/stolen/damaged.  Those people should be or, perhaps, could be required to be notaries.  

 

No passport reps at mine or the kids' ceremonies.  I think you're right about the post covid slim back.  

 

I had to get an expedited passport as I had travel within 2 weeks of the ceremony.  I had to call DOS and they basically said you have to suck it up and go wherever we have Passport Office appointments.  Luckily, they had one in Houston but I did have to waste 2 days of my life in the Passport Office.  It was nice to have my certificate back in hand because I needed it to update my NEXUS (apparently my passport wasn't good enough?).  

 

The kids we did through the Post Office and the agent stapled my CoN.  I was NOT happy.  They weren't supposed to and that was reaffirmed at the kids' CoC ceremony.  The USCIS agent and judge cringed when I told them that's what had happened.  Technically, the certificate should be replaced because it's supposed to stay pristine, or so I'm told.  That's a nope from me.  

[TBoneTX 47,886]

13 hours ago, Dashinka said:

What piques my curiosity

Upvote for correct spelling of "piques."   

[roadrunnericu 7]

On 7/31/2025 at 9:37 AM, yuna628 said:

Personally I think doing due diligence is important in immigration matters. Why should we as citizens count on our government officials to understand their own rules or even do the right thing? Getting extra documentation is like having an insurance policy.

it comes down to which documents do you want to store in a safety desposit box for eternity.  you can replace a passport with saved documents too. faster than you can the certification, as a matter of fact.

[OldUser 10,368]

35 minutes ago, roadrunnericu said:

it comes down to which documents do you want to store in a safety desposit box for eternity.  you can replace a passport with saved documents too. faster than you can the certification, as a matter of fact.

There are known instances of DOS pushing back and requiring more documentation proving citizenship during passport renewal.

 

IMHO losing passport is easier, as you actually use it for travel etc. Certificate, on the other hand, can sit for years in safe / deposit box without being disturbed.

The fact that certificate does not have expiration makes it a lot better document in my opinion. If I somehow could get a drivers license that never expires, for $500 fee, I'd get it without a doubt.

 

I think we'll never come to consensus here. The subject of whether CoC is worth the fee comes up on VJ every 2-3 months. And there's always two camps. I'm always in the camp of "the more proof you have the better". Others may see it as an overkill.

I think there's nothing else I can contribute here.

Edited August 2 by OldUser

[butmajor-leagueas 17]

On 7/30/2025 at 8:38 AM, Crazy Cat said:

An N-600 will ensure that USCIS has a record that individual has become a US citizen.  A Passport is a DOS document.

Well, said, and to add to that -

 

In the eyes of the government, it is "optional" and a "benefit" because yes, a person does fit what is needed by law to be a citizen. But papers matter for practical purposes even if you fit the parameters of the law via material truth. There is no statute on “user experience.” And as we know, government agencies in the U.S. seem to go out of their way to make everything as ridiculous and painful as possible.

 

I'm working on my N-600 application some 20 years after I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent. However, it has been extremely difficult to obtain proof of physical custody from that exact year that I derived U.S. Citizenship but I still want to push through before it becomes even more difficult.

 

To add insult to injury, when my parents applied for my first U.S. Passport just shortly after I derived U.S. Citizenship, the DOS interpreted INA 320's "physical custody" as where the child must literally be physically with the parents at the center where the parents would submit their passport application. They didn't ask for any third party evidence of physical custody. But they concluded some 10 years or so ago that their interpretation of INA 320's physical custody requirement was incorrect and they aligned it to what USCIS has had from the beginning. So, even if I FOIA / PA request my first U.S. Passport application, it won't come up with any such third party evidence as the DOS didn't ask for it then. I was devastated to hear that since I was really hoping that a FOIA request of my first U.S. Passport Application would contain evidence that exists in the law.

 

TLDR: Government guidance on whether a CoC is “needed” doesn’t consider potential future complications. There’s no statute guaranteeing an easy “user experience,” and anyone who has dealt with U.S. agencies knows they rarely make things simple.

[butmajor-leagueas 17]

On 7/30/2025 at 12:07 PM, Dashinka said:

You need to be careful with the first sentence, you are suggesting that a minor that naturalizes as a derivative of a naturalizing parent is no longer a valid USC when they turn 18.  That of course is not true by any means, the child retains their citizenship and the DoS has the basis for that citizenship along with copies at USCIS.  Think of this scenario, a person is a minor (let's say 10 yrs old) when their parent naturalizes, but the parents do not apply for a US passport or a CoN.  When that person turns 18 and decides to get a passport, what proof will they use?  I believe they can still use the parents CoN even though they are now over 18. 

 

As to your second sentence, would you expect these types of folks to treat a CoN any differently?  The long and short of it is for many folks the thought of paying close to $1400 for a piece of paper when a passport book or card are considerably less (~$200) is an easy decision.

 

In the end it is up to the parents (if the person is still a minor) or the person themself when they turn 18.

 

It's not just a "piece of paper", and a derived citizen isn't eligible for a Certificate of Naturalization, but rather a Certificate of Citizenship.

 

I get extremely upset when I hear people say this "piece of paper" thing, and they forget the implications and struggles that a derived citizen might have when their parents neglect the submission of N-600 which would finalize USCIS' records on their child's citizenship status once in for all.

[TBoneTX 47,886]

I still think -- in all instances -- that if there's an opportunity to keep the government off our back now or later, take that opportunity... every time.

[Gupiter 3]

I'd be careful if registering to vote if the individual does not have a Certificate of Citizenship as the recent presidential Executive Order on requires running the person's data through the federal SAVE query system, which mostly hits Department of Homeland Security databases (i.e. USCIS) to verify citizenship status.  If the individual has only been issued a U.S. Passport but not a Certification of Citizenship from USCIS it may generate a query result indicating the person is a U.S. Legal Permanent Resident and not eligible to vote (a felony and deportable offense).

 

It can be resolved by producing a U.S. Passport, but it is one more potential legal complication.  There is work being done to link the Department of State database to SAVE but I am not sure when that will happen and if it will avoid these type of false positives.

[Dashinka 26,099]

1 hour ago, Gupiter said:

I'd be careful if registering to vote if the individual does not have a Certificate of Citizenship as the recent presidential Executive Order on requires running the person's data through the federal SAVE query system, which mostly hits Department of Homeland Security databases (i.e. USCIS) to verify citizenship status.  If the individual has only been issued a U.S. Passport but not a Certification of Citizenship from USCIS it may generate a query result indicating the person is a U.S. Legal Permanent Resident and not eligible to vote (a felony and deportable offense).

 

It can be resolved by producing a U.S. Passport, but it is one more potential legal complication.  There is work being done to link the Department of State database to SAVE but I am not sure when that will happen and if it will avoid these type of false positives.

That is my big question.  If a child derives citizenship from their parents naturalization, their names listed fully on the N400 of the parents, why are they not also included in the SAVE database?  It seems weird that the only way they get recorded in the SAVE system is if they file for a CoC at some point, but possibly that is simply speculation, maybe they are recorded in SAVE even without a CoC (does anyone know for certain?).

 

Again, I am not against anyone filing an N600, I just think the cost is way way excessive, and USCIS's explanation for the costs increases is a bit sketchy.  

[Frankjavir 122]

Here is addtional information that suggests the rules change depending on the DOB of the individual benefiting from derivate citizenship, I thought new laws supersed old ones.

https://citizenpath.com/form-n-600-guide/