Donald Trump offers to help Charlie Gard after UK court rules life support machine to be turned off

[JimandChristy 1,689]

1 hour ago, jg121783 said:

You guys are ignoring the elephant in the room here. The failed socialist UK health care system. If socialist health care us so great why is nothing being done to try to save this kid?

LOL I'm sorry but once again you fall for the Fox News Propaganda hook, line and sinker. I've experienced both Health Care systems here in the USA and in the UK and I'll say this, when it comes to primary care, the NHS is far superior to the system in the US, not only does everyone get to see a doctor but the UK has far better health outcomes than the USA does despite spending far less per capita on healthcare. With what the USA spends on Healthcare it should be light years of everyone else around the world when it comes to outcomes and it is not. The USA system sucks and the socialistic health care systems that we have in every other first world country is superior than the profit driven disaster here.

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, jg121783 said:

It takes time to clean up all the messes Obama created in 8 years of a failed presidency.

 

Sure thing. In 2008 there were no homeless vets in the US. 

[CaliCat 3,957]

58 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

Whatever.  Trump offers some help, symbolic or otherwise, but that is not enough.  If a Republican can't solve the problems in total it is a failure, but hey occasionally a Democrat occupies the WH.  I wonder who is biased?

 

 

It's not a symbolic help. It's an empty gesture, aimed at publicity. He's just using somebody else's misfortune to feed his egomania. 

[CaliCat 3,957]

59 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

obviously you think trump was being genuine. my bad, i'm not in the position to be so naive concerning trump's motives.

 

 

They'll buy the bridge - toll plaza and all! 

[JimandChristy 1,689]

7 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

 

It's not a symbolic help. It's an empty gesture, aimed at publicity. He's just using somebody else's misfortune to feed his egomania. 

Precisely, it's classic Trump.

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, jg121783 said:

You guys are ignoring the elephant in the room here. The failed socialist UK health care system. If socialist health care us so great why is nothing being done to try to save this kid?

 

You are ignoring the bridge you were sold. People die of incurable diseases in the US everyday. Worse, people die of curable and preventable diseases in the US because they can't afford treatment. 

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, jg121783 said:

Well he did hang the veterans out to dry (A few of them being family and friends of mine) in more ways than one. Trump is not going to be able to reverse the problem of veteran homelessness that reached a quite frankly disgusting level in the Obama years over night. It's funny how all of Obama's failures such as Obamacare are now blamed on Trump because he didn't fix them all overnight.

 

True. Trump can't fix the problems with the veterans overnight. What is he doing, now that he's been in the WH for months. What effective legislation has he enacted to that effect?

[smilesammich 10,727]

5 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

 

They'll buy the bridge - toll plaza and all! 

trump probably heard on the teevee that dumbocrats are finally getting spine enough to start whispering 'single payer' in public spaces. trump so smarts!

[yuna628 9,873]

13 minutes ago, JimandChristy said:

LOL I'm sorry but once again you fall for the Fox News Propaganda hook, line and sinker. I've experienced both Health Care systems here in the USA and in the UK and I'll say this, when it comes to primary care, the NHS is far superior to the system in the US, not only does everyone get to see a doctor but the UK has far better health outcomes than the USA does despite spending far less per capita on healthcare. With what the USA spends on Healthcare it should be light years of everyone else around the world when it comes to outcomes and it is not. The USA system sucks and the socialistic health care systems that we have in every other first world country is superior than the profit driven disaster here.

I would simply say on outlook regarding the NHS - just as it is in the US, there are areas of the UK where the quality of care provided is subpar. Most people who use the NHS may never encounter the really bad stuff, and may they never do.... but when and if they do... it's not pleasant.

[JimandChristy 1,689]

16 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

I would simply say on outlook regarding the NHS - just as it is in the US, there are areas of the UK where the quality of care provided is subpar. Most people who use the NHS may never encounter the really bad stuff, and may they never do.... but when and if they do... it's not pleasant.

Oh I'm not denying there are horror stories about the NHS, I acknowledge that particularly within members of my own family BUT cases like that are far more rife in the United States. Fox News though would want you to believe it never happens here and it only happens in the UK because Health care is socialized. SOCIALISM IS BAD, BAD, BAD, EVILLLLLLLLLLLL!! The USA system doesn't even guarantee basic health care to a proportion of its own population and it spends far more per person.

Edited July 3, 2017 by JimandChristy

[Dashinka 25,891]

2 hours ago, smilesammich said:

trump probably heard on the teevee that dumbocrats are finally getting spine enough to start whispering 'single payer' in public spaces. trump so smarts!

Trump himself has said he would be in favor of single payer several times, but everyone seems to be focused on some tweets.

[Dashinka 25,891]

1 hour ago, JimandChristy said:

Oh I'm not denying there are horror stories about the NHS, I acknowledge that particularly within members of my own family BUT cases like that are far more rife in the United States. Fox News though would want you to believe it never happens here and it only happens in the UK because Health care is socialized. SOCIALISM IS BAD, BAD, BAD, EVILLLLLLLLLLLL!! The USA system doesn't even guarantee basic health care to a proportion of its own population and it spends far more per person.

We do have a socialistic healthcare system here in the US and it is atrocious.  It is called the VA, and our vets deserve much better.

 

Btw, socialism is bad.

[OriZ 3,165]

4 hours ago, JimandChristy said:

LOL I'm sorry but once again you fall for the Fox News Propaganda hook, line and sinker. I've experienced both Health Care systems here in the USA and in the UK and I'll say this, when it comes to primary care, the NHS is far superior to the system in the US, not only does everyone get to see a doctor but the UK has far better health outcomes than the USA does despite spending far less per capita on healthcare. With what the USA spends on Healthcare it should be light years of everyone else around the world when it comes to outcomes and it is not. The USA system sucks and the socialistic health care systems that we have in every other first world country is superior than the profit driven disaster here.

You bring up a good point. Alot of people keep pointing out to the great doctors and healthcare available in the US. I'm not trying to knock any of that. However with my wife's lifetime experiences and horror stories as well as the ones I've experienced with her since, I've gotta say we've often wondered how much money some of those people wasted on student loans for no reason. In mere 4 years in Israel(I'm also not trying to glorify Israeli healthcare although it is good) they have figured out more with her than they ever did here before, or after that time. It's really kind of strange, and frustrating at times, that nobody seems to know what the hell they're even doing, after all that money they spent on their schooling. We've now resorted to using 'yahoo' as a name for most doctors instead of their actual name when we talk between us.

Edited July 4, 2017 by OriZ

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, OriZ said:

You bring up a good point. Alot of people keep pointing out to the great doctors and healthcare available in the US. I'm not trying to knock any of that. However with my wife's lifetime experiences and horror stories as well as the ones I've experienced with her since, I've gotta say we've often wondered how much money some of those people wasted on student loans for no reason. In mere 4 years in Israel(I'm also not trying to glorify Israeli healthcare although it is good) they have figured out more with her than they ever did here before, or after that time. It's really kind of strange, and frustrating at times, that nobody seems to know what the hell they're even doing, after all that money they spent on their schooling. We've now resorted to using 'yahoo' as a name for most doctors instead of their actual name when we talk between us.

 

There is a reason medicine is practiced - it's not an exact science, and for the most of it, when it comes to serious illnesses it's more a matter of trial and error than following a recipe. That's why they call it medical trials Sometimes things work, others they don't. Our healthcare system is expensive and inefficient, and more expensive than in other countries, and arguably even superior, but the reality is that most Americans will not have access to these groundbreaking treatments, unless they can pay, because insurance companies have a lifetime cap on their policies. In addition, insurance companies are in the business of turning profits, not saving lives, and they reserve the right to deny treatment to anyone they cover. Healthcare in our country has always been rationed, first by your ability to pay insurance, and then for the financial interest of the insurance companies.

 

The noise machine here talks about waiting for treatment in some countries, while some Americans will die because they have no access to a doctor until it's too late and going to the ER is their only option. 

 

So, if you're rich in America you will have medical care here or anywhere you choose to pay. There are excellent private clinics all over Europe and anyone is accepted for treatment, based on their ability to pay. If you're not, you won't have to wait, because some bureaucrat will decide if you get treatment, and which treatment you should get; and by the time you have your day in court, you'll probably be already dead.

 

Healthcare in America is as effective as the banking system is for a homeless person. 

 

 

 

[bcking 3,157]

6 hours ago, yuna628 said:

Alright, I've had my eye on this case before it ever pinged on Donnie's radar, so before yelling about socialist healthcare in the UK, let's actually review what's going on with this case.

 

The child was born with a condition so rare there are only 16 documented cases. There is no cure, and even if there was a treatment available this would not help the child to survive. It is worth noting that the child is currently in the most critical stage of the condition - he is virtually a vegetable and we aren't even sure if they are aware of pain. I do not know if there was a test that would have picked up on this condition before the birth of the child, or if there were any pre-screening measures, or if the family was aware of the very grave circumstances that would happen upon his birth. Considering what happened with our own nephew in the UK fills me with some doubts about how far some NHS services go in testing and informing parents or their care once they are born in a critical stage.... but I digress.

 

The logical way I feel about this is that these parents have the money and are the parents of this child, and they should have the right to seek treatment for him wherever they deem reasonable. It should be their right to as parents. So the way the government and the courts ruled makes me gravely upset, but is not surprising again considering with what happened with us..

 

BUT there is a history here that the media is not telling concerned individuals about this case: and that is the hospital actually did start work on the ethical reviews process that a lot of hospitals go through in determining if the treatment they want to try in the US could be brought to the UK and attempted. They stopped that process once his condition became too grave. Ethically the doctors there felt that the treatment had so high a likelihood of failure and would result in further brain damage and loss of life - that them administering such treatments would be killing the child in an experimental and unnatural way. To be fair: the treatment the parents would like to try has helped some children with similar conditions. Similar is not the same. It has not been tested in animals or humans in that regard, and even in those cases of similar where it did help quality of life - it did not affect the ultimate outcome of death. These children will die and that death will be just as horrible. Despite this, these parents would like to try it - afterall they say ''what have we to lose, but our son who is to be lost anyway.. at least we tried''. And yes, I'd feel the same. At least we tried. But there is such a thing as false hope and those who prey on the vulnerable and could turn their child into an experiment. This poses serious ethical questions. No doctor has presented evidence to them that there will be any success or change in his fate and there is evidence to suggest it could cause additional mutations and accelerated death.

 

The second part about this story that infuriates me is the refusal by the hospital to allow the child a dignified death with his parents in his home.

 

And lastly: Donald Trump can do nothing for these parents. They are not refugees, and there are millions of more kids just like them who would like to be given that same thought or chance. I am uncomfortable that his approaching death is being used like this. They parents can try, and they should have a right to, but let us be clear - there is no saving the boy.

I agree with a lot of what you said but a few points:

 

1. The question of whether an infant can suffer is an interesting ethical question, but there are usually fairly simple ways we can judge if they respond to pain. Interventions (moving the ET tube for example) will cause their heart rate to ride. Conversely, tachycardia resolved with morphine related medications is usually pain. Now you could argue he isn't experiencing those painful stimuli like we do, but if he has those responses the best we can say is he has intact pain receptors.

 

2. The idea that not dying at home is somehow not dignified for him is just wrong, in my view. If anything what isn't "with dignity" is prolonging suffering with no end in sight and no reason. Furthermore, it isn't simply an issue of "not allowing" his parents to bring him home. From what I've read it seems that he is mechanically ventilated. In order to go home he would need a tracheostomy, which likely hasn't been done. That surgical procedure would have the same ethical dilemma that this experiment drug therapy would have. What is the point? It is a surgical procedure, with the pain that goes with that, with no purpose.

 

Also, while I hope you have never lost a child in a NICU and so you hopefully have no personal experience, the entire community makes it as peaceful and dignified as possible. Most NICUs have designated spaces, and in sure GOSH is the same. We have a room that is decorated like a nursery, with no wiring, no oxygen hook ups. It is purely for the parents and the child to be alone as long as they need. It isn't perfect, but death never is and I wouldn't say it isn't dignified.

 

3. The issue of "what do we have to lose" is part of the problem if you ask me. That is a very selfish question. The parents are asking what do THEY have to lose. The infant, in the meantime, is potentially in pain with no reason or understanding. Yes the infant will die either way but again I go back to what one would really consider "dignified".