Dealing with a previous marriage in a high fraud country.

[Elchelle 5]

sli

Yeah looks like an orfi marriage contract. You can google that to learn more. If it is an orfi contract than from what I have heard it is not legally binding in Egypt.

http://orfi-wives-egypt.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-is-orfi-marriage.html?m=1

I would spend some time preparing for your intercultural marriage/marriage to an arab muslim by reading books and seeking the wisdom of others you can sit down with face to face. There are a lot of great things to think through. Can't speak to your questions too much but do encourage you to seek counsel.

Yes, I researched this when we first made the contract, but there are *so many* Muslim laws I do not yet know or understand. I do know that my husand/fiance is Muslim, which I respect, and I am not, which he respects. This contract was something I did for him because he felt it spiritually necessary, and I thought the sentiment of respect for us and our love was genuine and sweet.

The Embassy does have this document.

Thank you again, Shahara 2013! I'm glad it is an urfi marriage. It sounds like if I had signed a Katab al Kitab I would have had to start the visa process over again as a spouse!

[fyzah 4]

We had our civil marriage in Egypt while we were both tourists, and it was quite a lengthy process! The first step was to get a document from the American embassy for my husband and from the British Embassy for myself permitting us to get married. After so many complicated steps we got it translated and certified by the US embassy. Definitely would not recommend getting married there. Niether of us are arabs and the language was a problem. Without a doubt it would have been easier if we had done it in one of our home countries. I don't think what you described sounds like a formal marriage contract.

[Ihavequestions 419]

Muslim Egyptian men can have four wives at the same time. Dunno who told you three, but they're wrong.

You signed an urfi/orfi marriage paper, commonly known as a "sex paper." COs know what these are and this will be a red flag. Not because they're unusual (it's the easy way to skirt the law), but because a guy from a conservative, rural village in Upper Egypt would enter into one of these arrangements with his future Mrs. Forever instead of a proper marriage.

Other than the religious differences and the urfi/orfi marriage paper, what other red flags do you have to address?

[AmyWrites 593]

IMO a red flag here is you don't seem to know much about his culture.... and yes, he leaving kids, his wife, etc, will be red flags. Get a lot of evidence to overcome it.

[sparkles_ 456]

What you have there is an orfi marriage, used to skirt the law to stay together overnight without being tossed in jail. It is not an Islamic marriage cert. by the way. The nikkah is different, and every marriage with an Egyptian and foreigner needs a trip to the courts there as well as your embassy and you don't mention anything about that..... I was married when I met my fiance however I proof I was legally apart from him in my pending divorce decree. Does he have any proof he was perhaps legally separated from his then wife? It would help your case rather than looking like he just dropped his family for you and a chance to immigrate.

I don't mean this to sound hurtful but a CO may look and think he would marry you, leave you after X years and bring the first family over when able.

I agree about men from upper Egypt not looking too kindly on this orfi idea. But you also didn't mention how long he had been living away from home. Other red flags.....do you guys have a big age gap? Does his family know about you, have they met you, do they accept the general idea of him marrying you?

We get that the men can have up to three wives but once you talk about immigration you switch over to American law where for a K1 you must be free to marry.

[Elchelle 5]

Okay, paper evidence. That is my question. What kind? Do I send it with him? What kind of questions can he expect?

Edited March 10, 2014 by Elchelle

[Kev-N-Ann 45]

Oh, God! I have been reading all the posts and it seems so complicated!

I can tell you that me, being Greek, had a long discussion at the Embassy about the fact that neither me or my finace had yet been divorced when we decided to take our relationship a step further and got engaged. We were both separated (him for more than a year and me for about 7 months) when this happened, but the CO had a lot of questions to ask me. She even wanted to know how I felt about getting involved in a serious relationship so soon after my separation.

My advise would be to be truthful, detail oriented and see if you could be there to attend the interview.

Good luck and stay strong!

[Elchelle 5]

Oh, God! I have been reading all the posts and it seems so complicated!

I can tell you that me, being Greek, had a long discussion at the Embassy about the fact that neither me or my finace had yet been divorced when we decided to take our relationship a step further and got engaged. We were both separated (him for more than a year and me for about 7 months) when this happened, but the CO had a lot of questions to ask me. She even wanted to know how I felt about getting involved in a serious relationship so soon after my separation.

My advise would be to be truthful, detail oriented and see if you could be there to attend the interview.

Good luck and stay strong!

Thank you! Is Greece considered a "high fraud" country?

I don't think I can be there for the interview because of 'llmy job, so I am going to need to send him in with a lot of paperwork. Ironically, I'll be working in another Middle Eastern country when we suspect his interview willl be.

[Pishi_Pishi 63]

I hope everything goes well for both of you. Holding my fingers and wishing you lots of luck!

[Kev-N-Ann 45]

Thank you! Is Greece considered a "high fraud" country?

I don't think I can be there for the interview because of 'llmy job, so I am going to need to send him in with a lot of paperwork. Ironically, I'll be working in another Middle Eastern country when we suspect his interview willl be.

No, Greece is not considered to be a "high fraud" country and, despite that, they insisted on the fact that our divorces had not yet been finalized when we got engaged. All in a very polite and kind environment, but still the questions kept coming.

My experience in immigration so far tells me that we have to be honest and build up our "case" as completely as possible. So, gather all the evidence you can. The COs don't check them when they have no reason to, but if something does not seem right to them, they will ask for more evidence, so it is best for him to have everything available.

As for your tickets to Egypt, please, note, that they might not consider them evidence, since you also went there to work.

[David & Diana R 1,005]

Good luck

[glittersam 3]

Muslim men can marry up to 4 wives, not 3.

You have a long road ahead of you, your case has some very big red flags, the biggest being his children and why he would leave them, the second being he was had a traditional marriage and divorced her to be with you. There have been many cases where men from MENA countries have divorced their wives to marry us citizens and as soon as they hit the day after the 5 year rule, they divorce their us wife and remarry the first wife back home and brings her and the kids legally to the US. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but the consulate is very aware of this type of fraud, it will be an uphill battle trying to,prove that won't happen. Do you have other red flags? Big age difference, different religion, big difference in educational background? The more info you give us the more advice we can give.

you are pathetic

[Shoot Em Straight 385]

The messenger is just posting what has happened in MENA countries. YOUR post is unnecessary.

[Elchelle 5]

To mimolicious and Ihavequestions, and BeccaBecca, and others, thank you for your responses. I know my relationship. I know what happens sometimes with fraud. Whether Muslim men can marry three wives or four wives in Egypt is really not relevant here. I thank you all for pointing that out to me, and I appreciate your knowledge, but I'm seeking advice on how to overcome the red flags. I am aware of the red flags, which was the point of the post in the first place. No one has actually given me any advice solid about what to do about it and how he can prepare for the interview.

[AmyWrites 593]

To mimolicious and Ihavequestions, and BeccaBecca, and others, thank you for your responses. I know my relationship. I know what happens sometimes with fraud. Whether Muslim men can marry three wives or four wives in Egypt is really not relevant here. I thank you all for pointing that out to me, and I appreciate your knowledge, but I'm seeking advice on how to overcome the red flags. I am aware of the red flags, which was the point of the post in the first place. No one has actually given me any advice solid about what to do about it and how he can prepare for the interview.

Evidence of talking a lot, meeting in person, spending time with each other's family. So, Skype logs, boarding passes, photos, maybe FB/email logs. IMO, I think even with this, with him being from Egypt and leaving his wife to be with you (looks a lot like he just wants to move stateside), you'll go through AP anyway.