K1 Filed, can we do a wedding ceramony and not register it?

[M and C 32]

I agree with the common sentiments in this thread. Even if the ceremony isn't "legal", don't do it. Why risk raising red flags when you can go through the K1 process without any added stress than it already has.

[MrHopeful2013 2]

Do not do it, do not even think about it. A religious marriage in India is considered legal for all practical purposes, whether or not its registered:

http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/service/other-citizen-services/marriage.html

US Consulate in India is conducting investigations more frequently now because many people are opting for K-1 because they think its faster than IR/CR-1. They are also aware that in Hindu traditions sending a girl away before marriage is generally not considered acceptable, so they are being even more thorough with the K-1's now.

I urge you to dismiss the idea, the outcome could potentially be disastrous. Google Marc Ellis and read his articles regarding a refused K-1 and how it could possibly lead time to a lifetime ban.

[Harpa Timsah 13,259]

Yep to the above. In many countries, a religious marriage is legal. "Registered" or not doesn't change things.

[Billious 32]

There is so much bad advice being given in this thread, but they are stumbling on the right answer in the end for your situation...

The criteria is simply if you are legally free to wed. In most countries, you absolutely CAN have a ceremony together so long as it's not registered with the government. Whoever said "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck" is full of it. In our case (Indonesia), we specifically asked the embassy about this, and they said they don't care so long as it's not legally registered. That's NOT lying, that's NOT visa fraud... that's having a family celebration without legally being unable to wed upon arriving.

The tricky part is that India doesn't separate legal and "personal' marriages. By making a vow to each other in India, the government considers you married - regardless of "filing" anything. By being in a government recognized state of marriage, you cease to be eligible for a K1 visa.

So in your instance, this is a bad idea. But the advise people give on this forum in a general sense (ie: not India or certain African countries) is horribly inaccurate and leads to a lack of understanding for what the Embassies are looking for.

[TBoneTX 46,890]

So in your instance, this is a bad idea. But the advise people give on this forum in a general sense (ie: not India or certain African countries) is horribly inaccurate and leads to a lack of understanding for what the Embassies are looking for.

No, the advice here is NOT bad or wrong. It's prudent. Regardless of what you think "the Embassies are looking for," the COs are looking for the bona fide nature of a relationship in the category in which the visa is being applied for.

Functionally, the beneficiary will be nervous in the interview anyway, and if the CO begins in hostile fashion with a bunch of accusatory statements, punctuated with "Person ___ who was at this ceremony raved about your MARRIAGE on Facebook," how do you expect the beneficiary to prove a negative? "But we're not married!" "Oh, yes you are!" "But... but... but..."

The above can happen at ANY consulate to ANY beneficiary at ANY time. Some COs may have "quotas" of interviewees to put on 221g or to refuse outright, for all that you know. Why give them the slightest opening to ruin a couple's lives?

The ONLY safe, prudent action is to avoid ANY action that could be misconstrued (rightly or wrongly) by a CO. The alternative -- that of coming on an indisputable K-1 visa to the U.S., marrying in a civil ceremony, filing for AOS/EAD/AP, and holding one or more wedding celebrations afterwards, in styles of your choosing, at your leisure -- is 100% safe and is the generally recommended course of action by VisaJourney members.

Split hairs all you want about "it's OK in this country, but not that country," but realize that this is purely theoretical when it comes to the nuts and bolts of convincing a CO to grant a visa. Just try playing it your way and arguing your point in front of an accusatory CO who has 100% power to continue or wreck your relationship plans. Even worse, just imagine trying to explain your reasoning to a couple who accepts your advice and gets royally hosed at the consulate.

Edited May 27, 2013 by TBoneTX

[Billious 32]

Split hairs all you want about "it's OK in this country, but not that country," but realize that this is purely theoretical when it comes to the nuts and bolts of convincing a CO to grant a visa. Just try playing it your way and arguing your point in front of an accusatory CO who has 100% power to continue or wreck your relationship plans. Even worse, just imagine trying to explain your reasoning to a couple who accepts your advice and gets royally hosed at the consulate.

Given your tagline "Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate", I'm going to assume that you've had a difficult and contentious experience during the embassy phase of your process. And for that, I'm sorry... it sounds like you had a really rough consulate to deal with.

But from what I gather through these forums, the vast majority of the consulates apply a fairly consistent set of analysis to K1 visas. Regarding the requirement to be "free to marry upon arrival in the US", the only countries where non-legal ceremonies seem to create issues are certain West African countries, as well as India - places where the local legal tradition creates a LEGAL bond by the personal establishment an oath.

To further back up that this is a matter of legalistic status, and not simple consulate wonkery, are words for the very organizations involved.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_2994.html

Under U.S. immigration law, a foreign-citizen fiancé(e) of a U.S. citizen is the recipient of an approved Petition for Alien Fiancé(e), Form I-129F, who has been issued a nonimmigrant K-1 visa for travel to the United States in order to marry his or her U.S. citizen fiancé(e). Both the U.S. citizen and the K-1 visa applicant must have been legally free to marry at the time the petition was filed and must have remained so thereafter. The marriage must be legally possible according to laws of the U.S. state in which the marriage will take place.

Email to the Jakarta embassy:

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:32 AM

To: Jakarta, IV

Subject: K1 Visa in Progress

Hello,

My Indonesian fiancee and I are in the process of getting our I-129f approved through USCIS, and anticipate it will be coming through to the Jakarta embassy eventually. We are considering having a family celebration in Indonesia before she comes over here. With no religious figures, no paperwork, nothing that would create any legal marriage between the two of us - simply an opportunity for the family to celebrate since they will be unable to attend our wedding when she comes to the US.

I've read online that some people have had problems with Consular Officers denying K1 visas because of these celebrations. I want to be sure we don't run afoul of State Department rules. Can you clarify, will the Jakarta embassy issue a K1 visa if we have a family celebration that does not result in any government/religious organization recognizing a marriage?

Thank you for your time

and the response

Dear Mr. XXX,

Thank you for your email.

You can have a family celebration here in Indonesia. Do not register this ceremony to the KUA or Civil registry Office. If you do so, your fiancé will not eligible for a K-1 visa status.

Regards,

IMMIGRANT VISA UNIT

Somewhere in the depths of VJ was a post or an interview from a USCIS official who outright said that K1 applicants are free to have a non-legal ceremony without impacting the validity of their status. But alas at 6am, I'm having a hell of a time finding that old post.

There's been a lot of insensitive talk on this board about these non-legal ceremonies - people calling them "pretend weddings", etc. They are not. To those who choose to do this, it *is* their wedding day - and seeing these posts calling them "fake marriages", etc. is really insulting. Marriage is a dual institution, and for the purposes of immigration, the legal side is all the matters. But to discount the personal/emotional/spiritual side of the institution by calling people's weddings "fake" is unnecessary.

The reason this topic comes up a LOT is because one of the failings of the K1 process is that it does not offer much in the way of flexibility for managing the family expectations of international couples. The requirement to be free to marry is fully a matter of legality - the State Department/USCIS's goal in enforcing that requirement is to ensure that an immigrant will have the legal wherewithal to adjust status on arrival. As to the emotional/religious status of the couple, other than ensuring a bona fide relationship, the US government has no interest whatsoever in what the couple may refer to each other as.

[sara..... 371]

when coming to any forum to ask for answers please try to understand that there is a ton of information on the web telling you what the ins and outs are of applying for the k1 or any other visa.......what it does not tell you is that they look to see if there are any pics that suggest you could be married........formal engagement have at times made a load of problems for people because the interviewer decided that pics looked like a wedding instead of formal engagement......if you have any pics of a wedding that was not registered so in your mind your ok.......if the interviewer sees those pics rightfully they assume your married and dont qualify for k1 visa......stay on the safe side why make more problems for yourself when you have to try to prove your not married? its costly not only in money but in time trying to prove you are not married when it is assumed that you might be

just my opinion

sara

[LeftCoastLady 441]

And taking advice from someone who has yet to have their K-1 interview and successfully enter the country is wise?

Folks like TBone have been on VJ for some time and have seen plenty of instances of people shooting themselves in the proverbial foot as they attempt to game the system. What works for even 10 people on VJ is not indicative of what may work for the 11th person who tries it.

[Dave&Roza 748]

Okay, so I am full of it. Yet I have had dealing with other government agencies that use that very criteria to determine whether to hang you for a violation or denial of benefits. That is what the OP is looking for, a benefit the K-1 visa. Yes, we here on VJ tend to be a bit over cautious when it comes to dealings with IO at the USCIS or Embassies/Consulates. Now I can only tell you what the Consulate in Almaty expends and our experiences their. So I am giving you my opinion which is does not have any ceremony that can look like a weeding when using the K-1 visa--legal or otherwise. I point you to my original post and second T-Bone's post under mine. Get the K-1 visa, have her come to the US, get married and then go back to India when she is able to have the wedding "ceremony". In my mind that is the safest thing to do.

In the end it is your life and your decision. Choose wisely,

Dave

[Billious 32]

And taking advice from someone who has yet to have their K-1 interview and successfully enter the country is wise?

Folks like TBone have been on VJ for some time and have seen plenty of instances of people shooting themselves in the proverbial foot as they attempt to game the system. What works for even 10 people on VJ is not indicative of what may work for the 11th person who tries it.

An ad hominem attack on me doesn't invalidate the point. The standard USCIS and DOS use to determine eligibility is whether the couple is free to marry in the petitioner's state. And having done quite a bit of research on these forums, I've seen more people say they DIDN'T have a problem with this than those who DID. And nearly universally, the ones that DID have a problem were in India or West Africa. And in those countries, the couple ran afoul of the LEGAL requirement to be free to wed - because the ceremonies they engaged in carried an unintentional legal consequence.

And you know what? I agree with the "safer rather than sorry" mentality. But what I'm fighting against here is the idea that there's superstitious voodoo causing denials on a whim. In the vast majority of cases, it's not C.O, malevolence creating denials - it's inadvertent violations of the rules. I feel this community is more helpful if people are guided by *facts* and a clear knowledge of the requirements of the process, and not instilling an unneeded fear of the boogie-man.

Nothing in anything I write is meant to be of any offense or belittle anyone - but if my interpretation of things doesn't jive with yours, perhaps you might step off the ad hominem attack and instead address the facts I lay down? I think the DOS web site, USCIS web site, an interview with a USCIS executive and an email from an embassy C.O. create a powerful case for my point.

With respect.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Billious

[LeftCoastLady 441]

An ad hominem attack on me doesn't invalidate the point. The standard USCIS and DOS use to determine eligibility is whether the couple is free to marry in the petitioner's state. And having done quite a bit of research on these forums, I've seen more people say they DIDN'T have a problem with this than those who DID. And nearly universally, the ones that DID have a problem were in India or West Africa. And in those countries, the couple ran afoul of the LEGAL requirement to be free to wed - because the ceremonies they engaged in carried an unintentional legal consequence.

And you know what? I agree with the "safer rather than sorry" mentality. But what I'm fighting against here is the idea that there's superstitious voodoo causing denials on a whim. In the vast majority of cases, it's not C.O, malevolence creating denials - it's inadvertent violations of the rules. I feel this community is more helpful if people are guided by *facts* and a clear knowledge of the requirements of the process, and not instilling an unneeded fear of the boogie-man.

Nothing in anything I write is meant to be of any offense or belittle anyone - but if my interpretation of things doesn't jive with yours, perhaps you might step off the ad hominem attack and instead address the facts I lay down? I think the DOS web site, USCIS web site, an interview with a USCIS executive and an email from an embassy C.O. create a powerful case for my point.

With respect.

I'm quoting your post so now you'll know that I'm addressing you. My earlier post was not specifically addressing your situation. However, many of the people who feel it's OK to run the risk tend to be those who either haven't attended the K-1 interview and/or have yet to arrive in the U.S. They tend to think inside their vacuum that all's well and not care about what the next person may do. Those who have been on VJ for a few years have seen those attempting their luck when ultimately, they have no control over how the CO or CBP officer decides. The stance taken is that everyone is trying to enter the country and they'll lie if they can. The beneficiary's goal is to prove otherwise. Thus, why further complicate things by introducing something that can be read as if you're not free to marry?

I'm not sure why you're so upset, but perhaps my words (or those of others who have posted similar words as mine) hit a nerve. *shrugs*

It's not a bogeyman or voodoo when there are specific posts, including one from a couple who wasn't from Africa or India who was turned away at LAX because the CBP thought she was already married and attempting to enter on the K-1. Most people on VJ want others to succeed through this journey, which is why the resounding advice is to not do anything that has "wedding" in it until one is in the U.S.

There are so many hurdles to jump over for the next few years. Don't start with one that's 60 feet high and enflamed. Good luck on your journey.

[Heather&Ramy 22]

Whew...

Well I have debated this with my fiancé as well.. We feel it is worth it to take a certain amount of risk in setting an American wedding date and booking things for it before we have the visa in hand. So we have had to talk about what will happen if he doesn't get the visa before the wedding date. We will lose a lot of money and the question is, will we wait and look for another date, or will we get married in Egypt and then wait more than a year for THAT visa, or will we try to beat the system in some way and marry unofficially for personal/religious reasons while we wait for the K1 to come through to make it legal?

I can definitely understand why the OP is considering it. If he takes the advice of "quit your K1, marry her in India in November, and then do the spouse visa," that will result in either him being closed out of his own country for quite a long time or him having to live separately from his wife, neither of which are pleasant options for most. Not to mention the high price of flying, I don't know who is able to just fly back and forth all the time like some are suggesting. If his whole life is in America and he can't just get up and move to India for a few years, then getting married over there is not really an option. It isn't for me and my fiancé either.

But I do understand the warnings too... I'm not interested in lying to the government, even if I wanted to I would be terrified (and pretty confident) they would find out.

So we are just too afraid of the risk of getting caught in what would be considered fraud to do that.

However, I do find the emails referenced interesting... perhaps we will try asking as you did to be clear.

[Billious 32]

I would never encourage you to lie or "get away" with something. The simplest thing you can do is simply ask the embassy - if Egypt has a distinct legal process for becoming married that isn't automatically invoked by having a ceremony, you're not getting away with anything. You're having a family celebration while maintaining the legal capability to be married upon reuniting in the US. Simply ask the embassy. Get it in writing.

[skiptex 225]

heather.. maybe i wasn't clear.. i stated get married in the Nov.. return back to USA.. then petition spouse..

[sumdesi 3]

I can definitely understand why the OP is considering it. If he takes the advice of "quit your K1, marry her in India in November, and then do the spouse visa," that will result in either him being closed out of his own country for quite a long time or him having to live separately from his wife, neither of which are pleasant options for most. Not to mention the high price of flying, I don't know who is able to just fly back and forth all the time like some are suggesting. If his whole life is in America and he can't just get up and move to India for a few years, then getting married over there is not really an option. It isn't for me and my fiancé either.

Thank you very much for understanding!

I honestly did not set out to commit visa fraud or anything. My fiance and I considered the K-1 visa because it supposedly takes less time then CR1, and then thought we would do the wedding ceremony in India where most of our family members were. At this point, we had no clue this was against K-1 visa rules because we assumed this was not a legal marriage. But after reading some threads on VJ, I came to know that this may cause us to lose the visa. That's why I posted my original post to get clarification.

And overwhelmingly, everyone has been against this idea. I personally agree with Billious' logic because even I am of the same opinion. But then again, there is the risk and who knows what the visa officers will construe a family celebration as. May get lucky and they'll agree it was only a family celebration. Or they may not . Main conclusion I've gotten from this thread is that the risk isn't worth it, and might as well wait for the wedding ceremony until after the visa is issued.