Moving threads from P&R to OT.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Can we have another discussed on why this is happening so often? There doesn't seem to be any structure to it, no actual guidelines that are being followed. Every once in awhile, some threads are moved. That's basically it.

A thread about a shooting was moved from P&R to OT yesterday. Meanwhile, there were at least five other shooting threads that were left in P&R for an unknown reason.

Nobody knows what the "rules" are since they seem to change based on who feels like moving a thread. Can we either move ALL the "off topic" threads to OT and determine what OT really is, or can we please change the name of P&R so that the discussions we have there can stay there? Because once they're moved to OT, they die. Not a lot of people frequent that forum nearly as much.

the maven had an excellent suggestion as to what to do with the P&R forum:

I've thought for a while that P&R should be re-titled "Hot Topics." Threads about sex, religion, politics and other topics likely to spur heated debate could all go there, leaving OT for stuff of milder discussion.

This makes total sense to me and would stop the silly moving of the topics.

Here's what the moderator who moved a thread yesterday said:

I haven't looked over the other Gun related threads to say where they belong. As for this one I read all 11 pages and this thread seemed to be about a crime, involving a gun and the obvious death. I know Gun Control is a hot topic, and very much a political subject but this thread just did not fit.

So they only read one of the countless shooting threads and determined it was off topic, but ignored the rest and they're still there. And still thriving.

Can someone take a serious look at maven's suggestion? Or will things just remain the way they are?

Thanks!

[Teddy B 17,251]

When a thread gets moved to Off Topic, it dies a quick death. I would rather see an expansion of what is allowed in the P&R forum. Maybe add the words "Hot Topics" as suggested, or possibly "Current Events".

[Karee 4,190]

When a thread gets moved to Off Topic, it dies a quick death. I would rather see an expansion of what is allowed in the P&R forum. Maybe add the words "Hot Topics" as suggested, or possibly "Current Events".

I think this all started when a few windmill/green energy threads got moved from P&R to OT. A certain member didn't like that, and ever since then there seems to be some kind of issue.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

I think this all started when a few windmill/green energy threads got moved from P&R to OT. A certain member didn't like that, and ever since then there seems to be some kind of issue.

Those threads didn't really spark discussion so I didn't miss them, to be honest.

[^_^ 5,021]

Can we have another discussed on why this is happening so often? There doesn't seem to be any structure to it, no actual guidelines that are being followed. Every once in awhile, some threads are moved. That's basically it.

A thread about a shooting was moved from P&R to OT yesterday. Meanwhile, there were at least five other shooting threads that were left in P&R for an unknown reason.

Nobody knows what the "rules" are since they seem to change based on who feels like moving a thread. Can we either move ALL the "off topic" threads to OT and determine what OT really is, or can we please change the name of P&R so that the discussions we have there can stay there? Because once they're moved to OT, they die. Not a lot of people frequent that forum nearly as much.

the maven had an excellent suggestion as to what to do with the P&R forum:

This makes total sense to me and would stop the silly moving of the topics.

Here's what the moderator who moved a thread yesterday said:

So they only read one of the countless shooting threads and determined it was off topic, but ignored the rest and they're still there. And still thriving.

Can someone take a serious look at maven's suggestion? Or will things just remain the way they are?

Thanks!

The problem is that the moderators really don't talk to each other enough. For a team to act cohesively, there needs to be a substantial amount of time spent talking to each other about their shared objectives and they need to share their thought processes with each other. It's my understanding that a small number of moderators do this but others do not.

Now, the response to this is going to be "moderators have lives and families". No duh, of course they do. And when those lives and families cause an individual moderator to "fragment" from the group, it creates bad moderation. That's not a knock on the moderator with the life and the family, it's a knock on whoever put the team together.

All the rules in the world issued by Ewok won't help if his mod team remains fragmented and disconnected from one another.

Edited February 1, 2013 by ^_^

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

I think this all started when a few windmill/green energy threads got moved from P&R to OT. A certain member didn't like that, and ever since then there seems to be some kind of issue.

The issue pre-dates your joining, grasshopper. The struggle has its roots in the Great Off Topic War of summer 2010. The Troll Forces forced the partition of Off Topic, and the great behemoth P&R emerged in the aftermath.

Seriously, there's been debate about what belongs where between the two fora since P&R was created. Some people use moving from one forum to the other as part of their agenda on VJ. They get an unwitting mod or organiser to do a move, and people get butthurt. The only thing this has to do with those green energy threads is that their moving was almost certainly part of someone's agenda.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

I really don't see why it's such a difficult matter to tackle. Either change the name of P&R to be more widely accepting of the content that's already posted there, or for ONCE be consistent with what gets moved and what doesn't.

[^_^ 5,021]

... for ONCE be consistent with what gets moved and what doesn't.

You can't expect a team that lacks cohesiveness to act consistently. It just doesn't work.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

[quote name=' timestamp='1359740559' post='5954261]

You can't expect a team that lacks cohesiveness to act consistently. It just doesn't work.

If they can't be acting consistently, they shouldn't be acting at all.

[Karee 4,190]

The issue pre-dates your joining, grasshopper.

I've been around since 2007.

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

I've been around since 2007.

Why I shouldn't post pre-caffeine. Mea culpa.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Contrary to popular belief, members of the mod team actually are in fairly regular communication with each other via PMs, the Report Forum, the Moderator's forum, personal emails and even -gasp- telephone calls .

The partial answer to Evelyn's valid question as to why one thread gets moved and others that appear to be on the same topic don't is that Moderators do not read every thread so we are not aware that a thread needs to be moved. We respond to reports. If a thread is not reported, then it will depend on our own individual participation as a member whether or not one of us stumbles across a thread that needs to be moved. I know that I personally do not venture very often into the P&R forum unless I am responding to a report. If a thread is not reported, then we basically work on the premise that everything is fine with it until we are informed to the contrary. There are many other forums on VJ in which we are involved so most of us really don't have a lot of time to read leisurely through all of the forums. P&R especially has threads that go to multiple pages and if the topic is not of personal interest, then there is no incentive to wade through all of those pages. If a thread is reported, however, that is a different matter, and we review the reported thread to pick up the discussion and try to get the context.

The other 'partial' reason why some threads on a subject will be moved to OT and some will remain in P&R is that the intent of the discussion in context may not actually be political in this particular thread but discusses social aspects of the issue separate and distinct from any political overtones. The same thing applies to topics that some believe are automatically religious in nature because the theme has been discussed with religious overtones, even if the thread in question does not. Each thread that is reported is evaluated on its own merits and in context of the issue and the posted discussion. In P&R and OT, It is not a 'one size fits all' decision.

Finally, we (the moderation team) are aware of the limitations of the current restrictions for P&R and believe me, since we are the ones having to review and decide about whether or not a thread is political and should remain or be moved, we have at least - if not more -as great an interest in keeping things flowing smoothly and appropriately as any other participating member. We would love to have things nicely organized so that we have less work to do, not more.

Returning OT and P&R back into one thread is not an option, at least at this time. Even with the current confusion about where a thread belongs, the benefits of keeping the political/religious based discussion separate from OT outweigh the perceived liabilities. We are, however, investigating options to rename the thread that will provide clear direction about what is and isn't appropriate for the forum. Since this is not our decision alone to make, we are working collectively (yes, as mentioned above, we do this regularly) to present a viable option to Administration in a way that clearly demonstrates its appropriateness.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Kathryn41

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Returning OT and P&R back into one thread is not an option, at least at this time. Even with the current confusion about where a thread belongs, the benefits of keeping the political/religious based discussion separate from OT outweigh the perceived liabilities. We are, however, investigating options to rename the thread that will provide clear direction about what is and isn't appropriate for the forum. Since this is not our decision alone to make, we are working collectively (yes, as mentioned above, we do this regularly) to present a viable option to Administration in a way that clearly demonstrates its appropriateness.

Thank you, Ewok, Kathryn and whoever else among the decision makers to lend an ear to the valid complaints. Renaming P&R to Hot Topic/Current Events would, in my opinion, make it quite easy for Organizers and Mods to determine what threads need to be moved to Off Topic.

[TBoneTX 43,915]

Thank you, Ewok, Kathryn and whoever else among the decision makers to lend an ear to the valid complaints. Renaming P&R to Hot Topic/Current Events would, in my opinion, make it quite easy for Organizers and Mods to determine what threads need to be moved to Off Topic.

I'm receptive to whatever might be decided. However, would like to point out some considerations:

-- There might be cause (or calls) to move an OT thread into P&R, if a seemingly innocuous "OT" subject becomes Hot or Current.

-- How is it agreed or decided upon that a topic is or isn't Hot or Current? And, after a variable time, where's the line between "Cooling Rapidly," "Flash-in-the-Pan," or "Stale"?

-- Moving something from P&R to OT, as is done now, actually increases the exposure somewhat. The "threadcrumb" (the indication that a post has been moved) remains in the original forum, and the actual thread is in the destination forum. Accordingly, the thread is in two fora without impermissibly being a duplicate thread. This also applies to anything in the upper fora -- two attention-getters.

Finally, there's nothing to keep the P&R regulars from (gag, aaack, shudder) also scoping the OT forum as a matter of practice. I sometimes get the impression that OT has a "here be dragons" sign thumbtacked to it.

Edited February 2, 2013 by TBoneTX

[Penguin_ie 5,992]

-- There might be cause (or calls) to move an OT thread into P&R, if a seemingly innocuous "OT" subject becomes Hot or Current.

-- How is it agreed or decided upon that a topic is or isn't Hot or Current? And, after a variable time, where's the line between "Cooling Rapidly," "Flash-in-the-Pan," or "Stale"?

1: Yes, absolutely- the same happens now

2: I think re-naming the forum would give us more leeway to leave topics in that forum if they were originally posted there, ie to a certain extent it would be up to the OP to decide if a topic goes there or into OT, depending on where they see the discussion going. I don't see us moving topics from a Hot Topics forum to OT just because the discussion cooled down- the topic would simply fall off the page.