Request for Consistent Moderation within the P&R Forum

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Can any of the Moderators explain how the thought process goes behind choosing to delete posts in a particular thread for not staying on topic?

I've been a member here for almost 6 years, long before the P&R was splintered from Off Topic. I recall that the Administration stated that P&R would have a bit more leeway. Not an anything-goes forum like Expats, but that the mods would not intervene as much without complaints or reports. So that was and has been in place since P&R was first created. That is until a particular member, who happens to also be a Mod, started a thread in P&R called, 'Political Cartoons.' The creator of this thread had started a new set of rules never before honored or enforced in P&R - that any post which didn't follow the subject matter would be deleted by the Moderators. So, members kept it to graphic political commentary until someone apparently complained that photos of political figures with added text didn't fall into the category of political cartoons and were thus deleted from the thread by the Global Moderator, Kathryn. When I challenged such a rigid understanding of just what a political cartoon is, Kathryn stood firm in her decision to delete my posts since they did not, in her authority, qualify as political cartoons, and because the OP had set forth such rules for his thread, any posts that didn't adhere to such a rigid interpretation would be deleted. So I asked Kathryn if this level of moderating is granted to all OP's and she assured me that if an OP were to report posts which do not follow the subject at hand, they too would be removed from the thread in the same manner. After all, any less action would be inconsistent and unfair. Yet, this is exactly what has happened and is happening. I've made several reports on posts for a thread I started and yet, those posts have yet to be removed. I've seen activity from at least three different Mods within that thread, and no action besides a reminder by Penguin to stay on topic.

So I am asking the Moderators to be forward, impartial and honest here. Was deleting my posts in a thread a Mod started, overreaching, or is it in any way consistent or fair to not give me or any other member who isn't a Mod the same level of action taken when posts to a thread do not follow the topic? And I'm not suggesting that the ensuing discussions cannot or should not have their own natural deviation from the OP. I'm talking about when a thread is started and right away, the first handful of posts are nothing more than trolling to completely ignore the OP and whatever legitimate argument it may present. This is a typical tactic by a select few members who hang out in P&R, who can't come up with a legitimate counter argument so they use such threads as a springboard to go off on their own tangents. For example, if I started a thread about how GM has come back from the brink of bankruptcy and is now making a profit again, and the first few posts want to bring up illegal immigration, then such posts should be deleted. Now obviously, I'm not expecting the Mods to read every thread, but if sufficient reporting has been made and the same level of action has been given to the Political Cartoon thread to other threads, then I think eventually these habitual trollers will be less inclined to waste typing a response if they fear it will be deleted by a Mod for ignoring the topic.

Can we have a reasonable discussion about this and come up with a solution that is fair and consistent?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[^_^ 5,021]

Can any of the Moderators explain how the thought process goes ...

Moderators are busy people. Thought process???? Surely you jest.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Their playground, their rules, not yours.

[Captain Ewok 1,857]

I see nothing wrong with having a reasonable discussion. If you feel our moderators have let you down, then that means I have too -- and I want to listen and see if there is anything we can do. While some rules and enforcement will never be accepted by everyone all the time; I think critique is a good tool if done in good faith. I can't promise this means I will over turn any past decisions (probably not), but what I can do is if there are good suggestions made, we can help shape future decisions as appropriate.

I am not online all the time during all hours so please excuse my delayed responses -- but you will get them !

[Captain Ewok 1,857]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/forum/14-site-related-discussion-updates-ideas-etc/

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I see nothing wrong with having a reasonable discussion. If you feel our moderators have let you down, then that means I have too -- and I want to listen and see if there is anything we can do. While some rules and enforcement will never be accepted by everyone all the time; I think critique is a good tool if done in good faith. I can't promise this means I will over turn any past decisions (probably not), but what I can do is if there are good suggestions made, we can help shape future decisions as appropriate.

I am not online all the time during all hours so please excuse my delayed responses -- but you will get them !

Thanks, Captain. I do appreciate it.

I coach youth basketball and I know that no two referees officiate the same way. Some will let the players be more physical or forgive minor traveling violations while others will blow the whistle if a player's pivot foot slides more than inch. As a coach, I understand this and accept it. All I ask though from the refs is that they remain consistent with their officiating. If they're going to call traveling against my team, I expect they will do the same against the other team. That's all I'm asking here. I'm not expecting all the Mods to moderate exactly the same, but that each moderator is consistent with how they moderate. If the Moderators are all in agreement that deleting posts within a thread that don't address the topic, then I would like to expect as a member that they will do so for all threads within P&R

Edited January 31, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[^_^ 5,021]

If the Moderators are all in agreement that deleting posts within a thread that don't address the topic...

I have to say, if moderation really decides to do this they will accomplish two things.

1. P&R will drastically improve as a forum for political and religious discourse.

2. Moderator resources, already spread thin, will be over allocated to P&R, to the detriment of the rest of the site.

My personal suggestion would be that moderators NOT take this on and that the one moderator who took it upon himself to conjure up an individual code of conduct for his thread be advised to cease and desist. Stick to the traditional focus of TOS enforcement (tone) and don't try to police content.

[luckytxn 2,263]

Can any of the Moderators explain how the thought process goes behind choosing to delete posts in a particular thread for not staying on topic?

I've been a member here for almost 6 years, long before the P&R was splintered from Off Topic. I recall that the Administration stated that P&R would have a bit more leeway. Not an anything-goes forum like Expats, but that the mods would not intervene as much without complaints or reports. So that was and has been in place since P&R was first created. That is until a particular member, who happens to also be a Mod, started a thread in P&R called, 'Political Cartoons.' The creator of this thread had started a new set of rules never before honored or enforced in P&R - that any post which didn't follow the subject matter would be deleted by the Moderators. So, members kept it to graphic political commentary until someone apparently complained that photos of political figures with added text didn't fall into the category of political cartoons and were thus deleted from the thread by the Global Moderator, Kathryn. When I challenged such a rigid understanding of just what a political cartoon is, Kathryn stood firm in her decision to delete my posts since they did not, in her authority, qualify as political cartoons, and because the OP had set forth such rules for his thread, any posts that didn't adhere to such a rigid interpretation would be deleted. So I asked Kathryn if this level of moderating is granted to all OP's and she assured me that if an OP were to report posts which do not follow the subject at hand, they too would be removed from the thread in the same manner. After all, any less action would be inconsistent and unfair. Yet, this is exactly what has happened and is happening. I've made several reports on posts for a thread I started and yet, those posts have yet to be removed. I've seen activity from at least three different Mods within that thread, and no action besides a reminder by Penguin to stay on topic.

So I am asking the Moderators to be forward, impartial and honest here. Was deleting my posts in a thread a Mod started, overreaching, or is it in any way consistent or fair to not give me or any other member who isn't a Mod the same level of action taken when posts to a thread do not follow the topic? And I'm not suggesting that the ensuing discussions cannot or should not have their own natural deviation from the OP. I'm talking about when a thread is started and right away, the first handful of posts are nothing more than trolling to completely ignore the OP and whatever legitimate argument it may present. This is a typical tactic by a select few members who hang out in P&R, who can't come up with a legitimate counter argument so they use such threads as a springboard to go off on their own tangents. For example, if I started a thread about how GM has come back from the brink of bankruptcy and is now making a profit again, and the first few posts want to bring up illegal immigration, then such posts should be deleted. Now obviously, I'm not expecting the Mods to read every thread, but if sufficient reporting has been made and the same level of action has been given to the Political Cartoon thread to other threads, then I think eventually these habitual trollers will be less inclined to waste typing a response if they fear it will be deleted by a Mod for ignoring the topic.

Can we have a reasonable discussion about this and come up with a solution that is fair and consistent?

Please. You were in the wrong. It was a political cartoon thread and you didn't post cartoons but a picture with political commentary. They were deleted and you made a separate thread with what you wanted. A thread that is still going and seems popular. Since then you have been in a snit. Get over it and grow up.

You also the next day started 8 threads at once and also whined every chance you get. I also remember not too long ago the same thing happened in the same thread so why now having this temper tantrum?

[TBoneTX 43,081]

I think that the idea of keeping the Political Cartoons thread "pure" was well-conceived. Because of that concept (from the start), it's a great thread to page through, with little distraction.

It's the same for the break-off thread with the pictures that are not exactly cartoons.

To me, in this dual instance, all's well that ends well, see man.

Edited January 31, 2012 by TBoneTX

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Perhaps we can get some of the members to weigh in. . There were no new rules created for the Political Cartoon thread, just the ones that have always existed - post on the topic stated in the title/post. This is the post that I removed from the Political Cartoons thread. Mr. Fancypants says it is a political cartoon. I say it is political commentary but is not a political cartoon. So, cartoon? Yes or no.

[luckytxn 2,263]

Perhaps we can get some of the members to weigh in. . There were no new rules created for the Political Cartoon thread, just the ones that have always existed - post on the topic stated in the title/post. This is the post that I removed from the Political Cartoons thread. Mr. Fancypants says it is a political cartoon. I say it is political commentary but is not a political cartoon. So, cartoon? Yes or no.

Not a cartoon.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I have to say, if moderation really decides to do this they will accomplish two things.

1. P&R will drastically improve as a forum for political and religious discourse.

2. Moderator resources, already spread thin, will be over allocated to P&R, to the detriment of the rest of the site.

My personal suggestion would be that moderators NOT take this on and that the one moderator who took it upon himself to conjure up an individual code of conduct for his thread be advised to cease and desist. Stick to the traditional focus of TOS enforcement (tone) and don't try to police content.

Moderation of P&R and related non-immigrant forums already takes up 90% of our time and efforts.

[^_^ 5,021]

... just the ones that have always existed - post on the topic stated in the title/post.

As someone who has been around this particular corner of the Internet for a while, I can tell you that rule was traditionally not enforced unless other TOS violations existed and the thread was shut down using "gone off course" as a pretext. It was a secondary offense, in other words.. kind of like not having your seat belt on used to be once upon a time.

So if it is going to be rigidly enforced today as a primary offense (your site, your rules) then is it unfair of Steven to ask that the same rigidity be applied to all threads?

Or are moderator-initiated threads going to get special treatment?

[^_^ 5,021]

Moderation of P&R and related non-immigrant forums already takes up 90% of our time and efforts.

Then i would imagine the goal should be to reduce the number of moderation-worthy events, not to increase it.

When the cops are stretched thin because of budget cuts, they stop responding to lower severity events.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

The fact that the Political Cartoons thread was started by someone who is a member of the moderation team is a red herring. It is irrelevant to the discussion. The thread has received no more special treatment than any others. The title is Political Cartoons. If it is not a political cartoon, then it doesn't belong in the thread. For what it is worth and in contrast to what Mr. Fancypants alleges, the non-cartoon post that was reported was not reported by the topic's creator but by someone else entirely.

The ideal solution to reducing the number of moderation-worthy events would be to get rid of the non-immigration related forums all together.. That is unlikely to happen. The second best solution to reduce the number of moderation-worthy events would be for those who chose to participate in P&R to post like responsible adults and observe the TOS by which they agreed to abide when they became members of Visa Journey in the first place. The third solution would be to remove en masse those who habitually violate the TOS - who interestingly enough, are the same ones who generally require 90% of the moderation teams efforts. For various reasons, that is also unlikely to happen.

The 90% moderation rate for non-immigration related forums has been that way from the time I first joined the moderation team. It is also a handful of individuals who also account for the 90% of moderator-intervention activity.

My preference would be for individuals to post like responsible adults and not treat Visa Journey as some sort of a public school playground where anything goes if you can get away with it and everyone tries to get away with it.