My husband has been having 2 online affairs -

[sereia 0]

Actually, it is that easy.

What incredible luck for a man (or woman for that matter) that has no intentions on stopping. It gives them an opportunity to hide their indescretions better next. Perhaps better advice would have been to close her eyes and let him do what he wants. Who was it that said that forgiveness shows the highest love? So true, it's a shame that it is the one that has been cheated on rather than the cheater that is willing to show that kind of devotion.

Well said sistah!

[SterlingGirl 1]

That's pretty broad advice you're giving. Certain states have privacy and electronic monitoring laws that might end someone in court.

Think about your phone. It's your phone, but if you record a conversation, you have to give notice, and in some cases get permission.

This is one of those situations where 2 liberties clash. For example, if I'm outside your home at 2am screaming the Pledge of Allegiance, my freedom of speech can not infringe your right to quiet enjoyment of your home.

Thing is, it would be happening on her computer completely - whereas a phone conversation may or may not take place into two distinct locations, one of which may be a one- or two-party state. I think those are FCC's regulations, however, and I don't think the same rules apply as much over internet connections.

I used to work for an online org that routinely recorded online conversations with people in other states - by virtue of simply being on the messenger service, you have the risk of having your conversation recorded (on the other end). If it is restricted TO her machine, and she essentially only "uses" the information to determine if her marriage is going to continue or not . . . then that's no issue. Now, if you put a keylogger on your computer, encourage someone to use it for something like managing his bank account, and then use his password to log into the account and steal his money . . . even then, the privacy issue would be a little vague, because the account owner used someone else's computer. A keylogger in and of itself in ANY state is not illegal, only the end to which you use it. However, logging into someone else's bank account unauthorized, THAT is a legal issue. As for privacy, well - you're not fishing information off another person's proprietary machine, like a spammer or hacker does. That person willingly used yours.

So the same would honestly go for this person and her husband. She has every right to install whatever legally-begotten software she wants to on it; he more or less uses it at his own peril. What she DOES with that info, however, is up for debate. Seeing as she's not breaking into a bank account or any other legally protected personal property, the privacy argument truly becomes sketchy at best. Even if it was taken to court, I have a feeling, "Your Honor, I used her computer to commit emotional infidelity on my wife over the internet, she found out by installing a program on her own computer that was able to record the things I said; therefore, I believe she has committed a crime and I'd like some form of reparation" isn't going to fly any further than she could throw him.

In short - could there, someway or somehow, EVER be a point of contention regarding privacy issues by installing keylogging software on your own computer that someone else is simply borrowing? Never say never. People bring stupid suits and grievances into the justice system all the time. Would *I* be particularly worried about them in this case? Not one iota.

Edited January 4, 2009 by SterlingGirl

[diadromous mermaid 36]

The bigger point, keylogger being legal or otherwise, is how hypocritical is that, to offer forgiveness and then to monitor the partner's every move. I know, personally, if I had to go to such extremes to be sure that my spouse wasn't cheating on me, then the marriage is doomed anyway. Whether I wish to admit it or not, tracking one's partner's activities is indicative of mistrust.

The better approach is to reserve opinion as to the future potential of the marriage to such time that it becomes clearly evident that there is no cause for mistrust. If the husband is really remorseful, and wishes to restore the healthy status of the marriage, his OWN actions will be enough to show that.

That's pretty broad advice you're giving. Certain states have privacy and electronic monitoring laws that might end someone in court.

Think about your phone. It's your phone, but if you record a conversation, you have to give notice, and in some cases get permission.

This is one of those situations where 2 liberties clash. For example, if I'm outside your home at 2am screaming the Pledge of Allegiance, my freedom of speech can not infringe your right to quiet enjoyment of your home.

Thing is, it would be happening on her computer completely - whereas a phone conversation may or may not take place into two distinct locations, one of which may be a one- or two-party state. I think those are FCC's regulations, however, and I don't think the same rules apply as much over internet connections.

I used to work for an online org that routinely recorded online conversations with people in other states - by virtue of simply being on the messenger service, you have the risk of having your conversation recorded (on the other end). If it is restricted TO her machine, and she essentially only "uses" the information to determine if her marriage is going to continue or not . . . then that's no issue. Now, if you put a keylogger on your computer, encourage someone to use it for something like managing his bank account, and then use his password to log into the account and steal his money . . . even then, the privacy issue would be a little vague, because the account owner used someone else's computer. A keylogger in and of itself in ANY state is not illegal, only the end to which you use it. However, logging into someone else's bank account unauthorized, THAT is a legal issue. As for privacy, well - you're not fishing information off another person's proprietary machine, like a spammer or hacker does. That person willingly used yours.

So the same would honestly go for this person and her husband. She has every right to install whatever legally-begotten software she wants to on it; he more or less uses it at his own peril. What she DOES with that info, however, is up for debate. Seeing as she's not breaking into a bank account or any other legally protected personal property, the privacy argument truly becomes sketchy at best. Even if it was taken to court, I have a feeling, "Your Honor, I used her computer to commit emotional infidelity on my wife over the internet, she found out by installing a program on her own computer that was able to record the things I said; therefore, I believe she has committed a crime and I'd like some form of reparation" isn't going to fly any further than she could throw him.

In short - could there, someway or somehow, EVER be a point of contention regarding privacy issues by installing keylogging software on your own computer that someone else is simply borrowing? Never say never. People bring stupid suits and grievances into the justice system all the time. Would *I* be particularly worried about them in this case? Not one iota.

[SterlingGirl 1]

As for the comments on the marriage itself . . .

I think it's hard, even in a situation like this, to uniformly advise the situation with "Girl, you need to just LEAVE and never look back!" or with "Do whatever it takes to repair the relationship and make him stay with you." Relationships are just far too complex; people are too different. For a particularly hotheaded or strongwilled person, the solution may be particularly easy (to up and leave immediately) and the aftereffects may be such that she could easily live with them and move on. Someone who is more reserved and thoughtful may find it is more suitable to wait and work things out even AT an emotional expense, because the aftereffects of simply walking away immediately would be such that she couldn't live with them. Only you, OP, have to live with the consequences of what you decide, and only you know what you can handle. So honestly, advice that points you squarely in any specific direction is probably not what you need. A more introspective approach is likely needed.

In my experience - and as a poster's wife seemed to have offered earlier - you truly cannot underestimate the power of feeling displaced. Now, some people may relocate and have little to no issues whatsoever. They may hit the ground running, or briefly stumble and regain their footing almost immediately. Again, people are too complex to paint with one brush - one man may not adjust very easily because, yes, he's just lazy and makes no effort. Another may not adjust very easily because he is overwhelmed, despite his best efforts to cope. Because any one person had a particular experience does not mean it is one-size-fits-all.

For instance, my husband did not have the immediate problem of having to find and keep a job; since he is self-employed with an internet position, his job can go where he goes. But, even with that advantage, he DID have a few rough patches in adjusting. Everything truly was quite new to him, not because he'd never been here before, but because his visits held no permanence in his mind. He knew he had a "home" to go back to. Accepting that -THIS-, this new country and home and living situation, is now "home" is sometimes a gigantic step. Because we, the USC's, are still within our element and in our respective environments, it becomes a bit difficult for us to empathize.

At this point in our marriage, I'm almost like a gatekeeper. I know everything about our area, I've lived in our residence for years before he even got here, I know where everything is, how everything works. I handle what gets bought for the week, I handle the money exclusively because I have experience planning a budget and providing for more than one person - experience he does not have. He recognizes that it's simply wise that I handle most of these things, at least until a later time when he learns and can chip in.

However, be that as it may, it still makes him feel confined and even somewhat like a child when I have to effectively veto purchases because of our budget. He knows I'm not doing it to hurt him, and in fact, I'm doing it for our betterment, but he's still just not used to being told "no" when he wanted something. He was used to not having a whole lot of money, but that money would stretch a good bit in the UK, his rent/utilities were minimal because of his house-sharing arrangement, so most of his money could go towards whatever food he craved and whatever entertainment he fancied. He's now in a situation where that is no longer prudent; we must save, we must conserve, and we must be wise about whatever financial obligations we take on.

So, honestly, I seem more like a strict mother to him at times than a wife.

Would that give him any real reason to cheat? No. Would it give him the right? Absolutely not. However, to even remotely understand it, it takes having ever been in that situation to some extent. Have you ever been in a relationship where you felt like your input didn't mean much, or that the other person didn't seem to "need" you because they took everything on themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if my husband felt like that at times. And of course, I attempt to ameliorate this by including him in decisions and doing things for him as often as possible. But I still wouldn't be surprised if his unspoken feelings looked somewhat like that - if there was a bit of resentment, or misunderstanding. I do not assume that my husband absolutely thinks the best of me 100% of the time. There are things in my mind that my husband doesn't know, and never truly needs to know, and the same would rightfully be true of him.

However, some people lack the ability to confront this honestly, in a timely manner. Sometimes, when that thrilling feeling has worn off, and "real life" begins to set in with some snags they didn't see coming, they work hard to reacquire that thrill, that newness. Unfortunately, they might seek this with another person over the internet. Someone they know is inaccessible for all practical purposes, but still someone who can interact with them, someone who doesn't experience their terrible breath in the morning or see how he throws his clothes on the floor instead of in the hamper, or who could scald water when trying to cook. Someone who can appreciate everything good about them, while remaining oblivious to the less glamorous aspects of their personality.

People often use fantasy to escape reality. Some people choose to focus on the nature of the fantasy - and that's fine. Again, some people know precisely how they themselves would handle such a situation and could deal with the consequences. However, some people choose to focus on the reality from which their partner is trying to escape - what's gone wrong, how is he feeling and why, is it a product of the massive changes he's gone through, or is it just his ingrained self coming out? If this IS him and not just a product of the circumstances, could I deal with it for the rest of my life. If it IS only temporary, can I commit myself until such a time when things become better. Am I willing to BE that agent of change for the better, or should I expect HIM to make or break this by himself?

All questions you should ask yourself and answer based upon who you are. No one way is correct.

Edited January 4, 2009 by SterlingGirl

[SterlingGirl 1]

The bigger point, keylogger being legal or otherwise, is how hypocritical is that, to offer forgiveness and then to monitor the partner's every move. I know, personally, if I had to go to such extremes to be sure that my spouse wasn't cheating on me, then the marriage is doomed anyway. Whether I wish to admit it or not, tracking one's partner's activities is indicative of mistrust.

The better approach is to reserve opinion as to the future potential of the marriage to such time that it becomes clearly evident that there is no cause for mistrust. If the husband is really remorseful, and wishes to restore the healthy status of the marriage, his OWN actions will be enough to show that.

Oh, certainly - I wasn't contesting whether it was wise in the scheme of the relationship, I was strictly commenting on the legal/privacy issues. It just struck me as a little absurd that, in ANY state, installing a program on your own property would ever qualify as some criminal offense.

[Ling Ling 22]

Ling Ling,

I am NOT questioning the motive for wanting to repair the marriage and the wish to rebuild trust between the parties. I am questioning the OP's willingness to accept a promise that things won't occur again as sufficient to offer her complete trust to him so quickle and so soon. This was not some simple misunderstanding, at least not from the OP's words and comments. This series of actions brought the marriage to a critical state. The OP was contemplating divorce as a result o his actions. If a simple promise can restore the trust, then it causes me to wonder how significant the actions really were to the marriage's future.

As I said earlier, I am not proposing that anyone draw out, unnecessarily, the steps required to restore faith in one another, but I am saying that if she is willing to take a mere utterance from her errant husband as enough to offer unconditional acceptance of him, she might be compounding the problem, or at least, her approach to this relationship might have caused the opportunity for this to occur in the first place.

A couple needs to define what is acceptable behavior by communicating where the boundaries between what will be tolerated and what will not be tolerated lie. This should be done arly on in the relationship. But if not, certainly after an event of this magnetism. And in order to make sure that neither breach the trust, one has to stand firm on boundaries and set consequences that will occur if those boundaries are not honoured.

He's done everything I asked him to do in regards to winning back the trust.

Could it be that easy? Really? If so, my earlier comment stands. I don't recommend that anyone exaggerate anything in the way of making sure someone makes retribution, but honestly, an act, or rather two acts in this case, that brought your marriage to its knees, and now the individual that breached the trust has miraculously restored that trust, in a matter of a couple of days, JUST LIKE THAT?

Please, for your own sake, reconsider this. It took you both many months, I suspect, in the beginning of your courtship to open up to each other and to feel like letting your guard down. It can't be rebuilt in a day. Otherwise, your reaction to this whole affair was a tempest in a tea cup. UNLESS, as I said earlier, you are generally unreasonably forgiving that he is taking advantage of that fact.

Actually, it is that easy.

If it's just lust, puppy love, or infatuation, there's probably very little incentive to trust them again, or to try to make it work.

If you really love someone for who they are, and not just because they were convenient, easy, and obedient, then you'll try.

I believe that giving them your trust again does take a lot of heart, but it's easy if you love them.

I mean, if you don't give them another chance, you're also not giving yourself another chance at happiness. You'll have to wonder for the rest of your life,

"could it have worked?". If you give them another chance and they blow it....you walk away knowing that it wasn't because you were unreasonable.

If you give them another chance and it works out...what's better than that?

I think too many people expect a fairy tale marriage. Prince proposes, princess accepts, they get married, they live happily ever after.

It takes a lot of work....not 50/50 but 100% from each side. Happily ever after is sometimes filled with arguments, late night discussions,

sleeping on the couch, crying, venting on VJ, etc. Happily ever after is hard work and compromise by both spouses. Happily ever after is not a destination, but a journey.

Happily ever after is not the absence of difficulty, but the ability to overcome difficulty.

I agree with 90% of what you're saying. It does need to be discussed in detail, and expectations need to be set on both sides.

The only part I don't agree with would be the part about consequences. That goes into the area of treating your spouse like a child...as well as making them think that you're expecting them to screw-up again.

[Ling Ling 22]

Actually, it is that easy.

What incredible luck for a man (or woman for that matter) that has no intentions on stopping. It gives them an opportunity to hide their indescretions better next. Perhaps better advice would have been to close her eyes and let him do what he wants. Who was it that said that forgiveness shows the highest love? So true, it's a shame that it is the one that has been cheated on rather than the cheater that is willing to show that kind of devotion.

I think it gives both an opportunity to be happy together...and for the cheating spouse NOT to repeat their indiscretions.

How is considering to forgive someone, in any way advising them to close their eyes and let the spouse take advantage of them?

Forgiveness and surrender are two different things. You don't have to surrender your beliefs and expectations in order to forgive.

No one should surrender their reasonable expectations in a marriage, or surrender their character as a person.

The expectation of fidelity is a cornerstone of any relationship, and should NEVER be surrendered or compromised.

Forgiving someone for an indiscretion ONCE, and moving forward, is not a surrender.

As some have found out, forgiving someone a SECOND time for an indiscretion IS a surrender, and usually leads to more indiscretions.

[Ling Ling 22]

That's pretty broad advice you're giving. Certain states have privacy and electronic monitoring laws that might end someone in court.

Think about your phone. It's your phone, but if you record a conversation, you have to give notice, and in some cases get permission.

This is one of those situations where 2 liberties clash. For example, if I'm outside your home at 2am screaming the Pledge of Allegiance, my freedom of speech can not infringe your right to quiet enjoyment of your home.

Thing is, it would be happening on her computer completely - whereas a phone conversation may or may not take place into two distinct locations, one of which may be a one- or two-party state. I think those are FCC's regulations, however, and I don't think the same rules apply as much over internet connections.

I used to work for an online org that routinely recorded online conversations with people in other states - by virtue of simply being on the messenger service, you have the risk of having your conversation recorded (on the other end). If it is restricted TO her machine, and she essentially only "uses" the information to determine if her marriage is going to continue or not . . . then that's no issue. Now, if you put a keylogger on your computer, encourage someone to use it for something like managing his bank account, and then use his password to log into the account and steal his money . . . even then, the privacy issue would be a little vague, because the account owner used someone else's computer. A keylogger in and of itself in ANY state is not illegal, only the end to which you use it. However, logging into someone else's bank account unauthorized, THAT is a legal issue. As for privacy, well - you're not fishing information off another person's proprietary machine, like a spammer or hacker does. That person willingly used yours.

So the same would honestly go for this person and her husband. She has every right to install whatever legally-begotten software she wants to on it; he more or less uses it at his own peril. What she DOES with that info, however, is up for debate. Seeing as she's not breaking into a bank account or any other legally protected personal property, the privacy argument truly becomes sketchy at best. Even if it was taken to court, I have a feeling, "Your Honor, I used her computer to commit emotional infidelity on my wife over the internet, she found out by installing a program on her own computer that was able to record the things I said; therefore, I believe she has committed a crime and I'd like some form of reparation" isn't going to fly any further than she could throw him.

In short - could there, someway or somehow, EVER be a point of contention regarding privacy issues by installing keylogging software on your own computer that someone else is simply borrowing? Never say never. People bring stupid suits and grievances into the justice system all the time. Would *I* be particularly worried about them in this case? Not one iota.

Sorry...the courts don't agree with your assumption.

link from Charles

I guess it comes down to,

It's your computer, and you can do what you like with it. CHECK

You can purchase and install key logging software. CHECK

But if you have a reasonable belief that someone else will use it, you are not entitled to secretly intercept their communications.

Again, 2 liberties clashing...your liberty to do what you want stops when it infringes on my liberty.

[betrayed 0]

He's done everything I asked him to do in regards to winning back the trust.

Could it be that easy? Really? If so, my earlier comment stands. I don't recommend that anyone exaggerate anything in the way of making sure someone makes retribution, but honestly, an act, or rather two acts in this case, that brought your marriage to its knees, and now the individual that breached the trust has miraculously restored that trust, in a matter of a couple of days, JUST LIKE THAT?

Please, for your own sake, reconsider this. It took you both many months, I suspect, in the beginning of your courtship to open up to each other and to feel like letting your guard down. It can't be rebuilt in a day. Otherwise, your reaction to this whole affair was a tempest in a tea cup. UNLESS, as I said earlier, you are generally unreasonably forgiving that he is taking advantage of that fact.

Hi,

Maybe I didn't state myself clearly earlier... I meant specific actions that he would have to do to START to win back my trust. There is definitely still a lot of work to be done, no doubt. It has definitely been weird. And believe me, I have NOT forgotten what happened. It is going to be some time until I trust him again.

Actually, it is that easy.

If it's just lust, puppy love, or infatuation, there's probably very little incentive to trust them again, or to try to make it work.

If you really love someone for who they are, and not just because they were convenient, easy, and obedient, then you'll try.

I believe that giving them your trust again does take a lot of heart, but it's easy if you love them.

I mean, if you don't give them another chance, you're also not giving yourself another chance at happiness. You'll have to wonder for the rest of your life,

"could it have worked?". If you give them another chance and they blow it....you walk away knowing that it wasn't because you were unreasonable.

If you give them another chance and it works out...what's better than that?

I think too many people expect a fairy tale marriage. Prince proposes, princess accepts, they get married, they live happily ever after.

It takes a lot of work....not 50/50 but 100% from each side. Happily ever after is sometimes filled with arguments, late night discussions,

sleeping on the couch, crying, venting on VJ, etc. Happily ever after is hard work and compromise by both spouses. Happily ever after is not a destination, but a journey.

Happily ever after is not the absence of difficulty, but the ability to overcome difficulty.

I agree that I would always be left wondering if I had just decided to leave him... I'm not ready to make that kind of decision. Last night he told me that he doesn't want to lose me. That he can't believe that he was so stupid. That he doesn't even know who he would be without me. These were great things to hear.

Relationships are indeed work. I am willing to put in the work needed right now to try and repair this...

and i have seen court cases where parents installed this same type of software on their computer to monitor their kid's internet activity and got in hot water legally.

so let's review: person owns the computer + same person installs software to monitor other users = potential violation of privacy issue along with possible court action and lawyer fees.

eta: did a brief search in this forum and found the link, as this very topic has come up before:

link

I'm not interested in this. But thanks everyone for the suggestion.

Ling Ling,

I am NOT questioning the motive for wanting to repair the marriage and the wish to rebuild trust between the parties. I am questioning the OP's willingness to accept a promise that things won't occur again as sufficient to offer her complete trust to him so quickle and so soon. This was not some simple misunderstanding, at least not from the OP's words and comments. This series of actions brought the marriage to a critical state. The OP was contemplating divorce as a result o his actions. If a simple promise can restore the trust, then it causes me to wonder how significant the actions really were to the marriage's future.

As I said earlier, I am not proposing that anyone draw out, unnecessarily, the steps required to restore faith in one another, but I am saying that if she is willing to take a mere utterance from her errant husband as enough to offer unconditional acceptance of him, she might be compounding the problem, or at least, her approach to this relationship might have caused the opportunity for this to occur in the first place.

A couple needs to define what is acceptable behavior by communicating where the boundaries between what will be tolerated and what will not be tolerated lie. This should be done arly on in the relationship. But if not, certainly after an event of this magnetism. And in order to make sure that neither breach the trust, one has to stand firm on boundaries and set consequences that will occur if those boundaries are not honoured.

I hope that my above response clears up this matter a little bit. No, a simple promise has not restored the trust that has been lost by any stretch of the imagination... And no, there is no unconditional acceptance of him either. He is acutely aware of how betrayed I feel.

Thanks again to everyone for all of the responses... It's really helped a lot over the past few days.

[morocco4ever 63]

Actually, it is that easy.

What incredible luck for a man (or woman for that matter) that has no intentions on stopping. It gives them an opportunity to hide their indescretions better next. Perhaps better advice would have been to close her eyes and let him do what he wants. Who was it that said that forgiveness shows the highest love? So true, it's a shame that it is the one that has been cheated on rather than the cheater that is willing to show that kind of devotion.

I think it gives both an opportunity to be happy together...and for the cheating spouse NOT to repeat their indiscretions.

How is considering to forgive someone, in any way advising them to close their eyes and let the spouse take advantage of them?

Forgiveness and surrender are two different things. You don't have to surrender your beliefs and expectations in order to forgive.

No one should surrender their reasonable expectations in a marriage, or surrender their character as a person.

The expectation of fidelity is a cornerstone of any relationship, and should NEVER be surrendered or compromised.

Forgiving someone for an indiscretion ONCE, and moving forward, is not a surrender.

As some have found out, forgiving someone a SECOND time for an indiscretion IS a surrender, and usually leads to more indiscretions.

Again you are missing my point, as well as Diad's comment on consequences. There are consequences to everything we choose to do as either a child or an adult. You rob a bank, is there consequences? Yes, you could get caught and go to jail. If it were not for consequences why not run rampant? That is the point. Some people would thrive in a world without consequences. How do you know that he is truly remorse? Forgive yes, but you need to set boundaries, and you need to let them know the consequences. IE, "I will not tolerate a spouse that cheats, if you do it again I will divorce you".

You stated that forgiving is "as simple as that. Forgive, forget. Yeah right. So the next time he is on the computer and she walk in the room, he quickly closes the screen as she steps in, even if it was innocent. What do you think she is going to be thinking at that point? Easy? Hardly. Trust is given at the first of a relationship. If it has been broken it will need to be earned back. If he is not willing to work to earn it back then he isn't really committed to the relationship is he.

[betrayed 0]

Hi SterlingGirl... I've added my responses to your post in blue below.

As for the comments on the marriage itself . . .

I think it's hard, even in a situation like this, to uniformly advise the situation with "Girl, you need to just LEAVE and never look back!" or with "Do whatever it takes to repair the relationship and make him stay with you." Relationships are just far too complex; people are too different. For a particularly hotheaded or strongwilled person, the solution may be particularly easy (to up and leave immediately) and the aftereffects may be such that she could easily live with them and move on. Someone who is more reserved and thoughtful may find it is more suitable to wait and work things out even AT an emotional expense, because the aftereffects of simply walking away immediately would be such that she couldn't live with them. Only you, OP, have to live with the consequences of what you decide, and only you know what you can handle. So honestly, advice that points you squarely in any specific direction is probably not what you need. A more introspective approach is likely needed.

Yep, introspective is the main reason that I posted here. I needed somewhere I could go to just focus on this, without my friends and without my husband. It's helped me a ton being able to write to everyone here and to see the different responses.

In my experience - and as a poster's wife seemed to have offered earlier - you truly cannot underestimate the power of feeling displaced. Now, some people may relocate and have little to no issues whatsoever. They may hit the ground running, or briefly stumble and regain their footing almost immediately. Again, people are too complex to paint with one brush - one man may not adjust very easily because, yes, he's just lazy and makes no effort. Another may not adjust very easily because he is overwhelmed, despite his best efforts to cope. Because any one person had a particular experience does not mean it is one-size-fits-all.

For instance, my husband did not have the immediate problem of having to find and keep a job; since he is self-employed with an internet position, his job can go where he goes. But, even with that advantage, he DID have a few rough patches in adjusting. Everything truly was quite new to him, not because he'd never been here before, but because his visits held no permanence in his mind. He knew he had a "home" to go back to. Accepting that -THIS-, this new country and home and living situation, is now "home" is sometimes a gigantic step. Because we, the USC's, are still within our element and in our respective environments, it becomes a bit difficult for us to empathize.

I know that this transition has been extremely hard for him; he's from a developing country. It truly is a completely different place where he is from. I do however feel that I can empathize in some way due to my living down there with him for a while (a couple of months). I got a chance to see what it felt like exactly to be in a place with no real friends to speak of and to wait for him to come home from work every day. It sucked! I had internet dates with my girlfriends back home every day to pass the time. I was sooooo bored. It was amazingly depressing at times. So, while I did this, my experience was only for a couple of months and he was not working for almost 6. That's a long time to be sitting around.

This in no way exonerates him from the cheating online, but I know how alone he felt too.

[...]

However, some people lack the ability to confront this honestly, in a timely manner. Sometimes, when that thrilling feeling has worn off, and "real life" begins to set in with some snags they didn't see coming, they work hard to reacquire that thrill, that newness. Unfortunately, they might seek this with another person over the internet. Someone they know is inaccessible for all practical purposes, but still someone who can interact with them, someone who doesn't experience their terrible breath in the morning or see how he throws his clothes on the floor instead of in the hamper, or who could scald water when trying to cook. Someone who can appreciate everything good about them, while remaining oblivious to the less glamorous aspects of their personality.

People often use fantasy to escape reality. Some people choose to focus on the nature of the fantasy - and that's fine. Again, some people know precisely how they themselves would handle such a situation and could deal with the consequences. However, some people choose to focus on the reality from which their partner is trying to escape - what's gone wrong, how is he feeling and why, is it a product of the massive changes he's gone through, or is it just his ingrained self coming out? If this IS him and not just a product of the circumstances, could I deal with it for the rest of my life. If it IS only temporary, can I commit myself until such a time when things become better. Am I willing to BE that agent of change for the better, or should I expect HIM to make or break this by himself?

All questions you should ask yourself and answer based upon who you are. No one way is correct.

Yep, fantasy is always a good way to blow off some steam. One of my personal favorite things. Again, it doesn't excuse him for what he's done, but I do understand it in some ways now that I didn't before. I will NEVER admit this to him though.

I think it gives both an opportunity to be happy together...and for the cheating spouse NOT to repeat their indiscretions.

How is considering to forgive someone, in any way advising them to close their eyes and let the spouse take advantage of them?

Forgiveness and surrender are two different things. You don't have to surrender your beliefs and expectations in order to forgive.

No one should surrender their reasonable expectations in a marriage, or surrender their character as a person.

The expectation of fidelity is a cornerstone of any relationship, and should NEVER be surrendered or compromised.

Forgiving someone for an indiscretion ONCE, and moving forward, is not a surrender.

As some have found out, forgiving someone a SECOND time for an indiscretion IS a surrender, and usually leads to more indiscretions.

I agree with you that a first offense is forgivable. I have indeed also told him that if he ever does something like this again, I will not forgive him for it. Yep, that would be surrendering my life to him with a continual amount of indiscretions. Fool me once...

Edited January 4, 2009 by betrayed

[Ling Ling 22]

Actually, it is that easy.

What incredible luck for a man (or woman for that matter) that has no intentions on stopping. It gives them an opportunity to hide their indescretions better next. Perhaps better advice would have been to close her eyes and let him do what he wants. Who was it that said that forgiveness shows the highest love? So true, it's a shame that it is the one that has been cheated on rather than the cheater that is willing to show that kind of devotion.

I think it gives both an opportunity to be happy together...and for the cheating spouse NOT to repeat their indiscretions.

How is considering to forgive someone, in any way advising them to close their eyes and let the spouse take advantage of them?

Forgiveness and surrender are two different things. You don't have to surrender your beliefs and expectations in order to forgive.

No one should surrender their reasonable expectations in a marriage, or surrender their character as a person.

The expectation of fidelity is a cornerstone of any relationship, and should NEVER be surrendered or compromised.

Forgiving someone for an indiscretion ONCE, and moving forward, is not a surrender.

As some have found out, forgiving someone a SECOND time for an indiscretion IS a surrender, and usually leads to more indiscretions.

Again you are missing my point, as well as Diad's comment on consequences. There are consequences to everything we choose to do as either a child or an adult. You rob a bank, is there consequences? Yes, you could get caught and go to jail. If it were not for consequences why not run rampant? That is the point. Some people would thrive in a world without consequences. How do you know that he is truly remorse? Forgive yes, but you need to set boundaries, and you need to let them know the consequences. IE, "I will not tolerate a spouse that cheats, if you do it again I will divorce you".

You stated that forgiving is "as simple as that. Forgive, forget. Yeah right. So the next time he is on the computer and she walk in the room, he quickly closes the screen as she steps in, even if it was innocent. What do you think she is going to be thinking at that point? Easy? Hardly. Trust is given at the first of a relationship. If it has been broken it will need to be earned back. If he is not willing to work to earn it back then he isn't really committed to the relationship is he.

I never said "forgive and forget". There's no way to forget something like this. As for the consequences, I never said there shouldn't be any, just that you don't need to hang specific consequences over their head...that's like a threat. I think saying something like, "I won't be able to deal with your repeating this action" is enough.

Please don't put words in my mouth or twist what I say.

[LorriQ 0]

Ultimatums are like waving flags - have to agree with Ling Ling on that one. Best to state the facts and stick with that.

Cheating in any shape or form is NOT acceptable. Trust is easily given, easily broken, and hardly replaced. It takes faith, and a lot of hard work to rebuild - for both individuals involved. I wish you both the patience and strength to do so. Sounds like you already have the love part, otherwise you wouldn't be here!

Edited January 4, 2009 by LorriQ

[morocco4ever 63]

Diad state:

Ling Ling,

set consequences that will occur if those boundaries are not honoured.

Your response:

The only part I don't agree with would be the part about consequences.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

Ultimatums and consequences may be similar, but not always the same. Example. "If you don't take out the garbage you won't get sex for a week". Ultimatum, and purely wrong. A man cheats and his wife divorces him. This is a consequence, and acceptable. When she stated that she needs to set consequences I highly doubt that she meant that she should withhold sex (as an example). But rather stating what she can and can not live with. The consequence would be divorce. He has the right to do as he pleases, so if he chooses to cheat she also has the right to do as she pleases. If she decides this is a trait she can't live with she divorces him. It's a perfectly normal consequence for cheating. On the other hand, if she says she will cheat if he does, well that is an ultimatum.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I agree that Ling Ling seems to be confounding the essence of my comments.

Simply put, each individual must choose what behaviour is and is not tolerable. Forgiving someone for past indiscretions is a "process". The choice to forgive may be made in a moment, but the actions required to complete the task are done over time. Taken in steps. A process much like earning trust once it has been betrayed. It is a process, and only time will demonstrate whether the OP's husband is genuine in his interest to restore her faith in him. He cannot rebuild the very foundation of a marital relationship with a mere utternace (or promise) that such behaviour will not be repeated. That will be clear when weeks and months pass and his respect of her and his actions demonstrate that she can turn he back and not hold her breath, wondering if he will stray again. One cannot "fast forward" time such that the process is abbreviated to a moment. That was the essence of my reaction, when the OP said "he has done what is needed to rebuild the trust". She has since come back to expound on that statement, and I feel much more at ease with her last commentary.

Diad state:

Ling Ling,

set consequences that will occur if those boundaries are not honoured.

Your response:

The only part I don't agree with would be the part about consequences.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

Ultimatums and consequences may be similar, but not always the same. Example. "If you don't take out the garbage you won't get sex for a week". Ultimatum, and purely wrong. A man cheats and his wife divorces him. This is a consequence, and acceptable. When she stated that she needs to set consequences I highly doubt that she meant that she should withhold sex (as an example). But rather stating what she can and can not live with. The consequence would be divorce. He has the right to do as he pleases, so if he chooses to cheat she also has the right to do as she pleases. If she decides this is a trait she can't live with she divorces him. It's a perfectly normal consequence for cheating. On the other hand, if she says she will cheat if he does, well that is an ultimatum.