from a moroccan forum discussing white marriage or marriage for papers

[PetraPerson101 0]

[chop]

If your marriage survives cultural norms... yeah

Gah.

Those sound like the cultural norms of a goatherder - or the kind "cultural norms" you might read about in one of Ann Coulter's reading suggestions.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

get real......this isnt western....this is islam.......and u are not first generation arab.....so stop throwing the arab card around....most want kids....if they dont have them...most hurt about it at one time or another

You get real coz you really have no idea what you are talking about. You started this thread so you could engage in stereotypes about Arabs marrying westerners. You don't know the first thing about Islam, nor about what most Arabs want or feel. I've forgotten more about both than you ever knew. Just because you married an Algerian doesn't make you any kind of expect on Arabs and Islam.

Reading your constantly angry posts that slam nearly everyone and everything, I'm sure no one can convince you of anything that will make you feel better than the perpetually sad state you seem enjoy wallowing in. If stereotypes suit you, then you will choose to believe them. You should, however, learn something more about Islam and Arabs before you start throwing around stereotypes about it, cause that will not be taken lightly.

First,

Are you trying to tell me that I do not know anything about Islam or that marriage between at 50 year old woman and a man in his 20s is a normal thing in Morocco or Algeria? Are you also trying to tell me that somehow this post NOT written by me, its written by a Moroccan is NOT how many arabs view the marriages between western women and Americans?

First, you could not possibly begin to know how much I believe in love and dreams and want very much to believe the best in people. Angry or not, first, you are NOT first generation Arab nor do you represent arab women. Second , you are NOT in a traditional marriage that would be conventionally accepted NO MATTER HOW NICE IT WOULD BE IF IT WAS... The reality is that when you marry a man 20 years younger like you have, whether he loves you or not, papers HAS TO COME INTO MIND or you are not being honest with yourself. Someone that much younger may adore and love you but it is NOT the cultural norm there no matter how trendy it may be here at the time. You are setting other women up for a fall when you do not address original postings like the one this Moroccan woman made in this MOROCCAN FORUM,, not an American forum.

You consistantly play this ARAB card and you are as much of an arab as I am. You are a 3 rd generation I am going to guess, lebanese or palestinian descent arab living in the USA who somehow holds yourself up as some kind of scion of arab culture.I beg to say that indeed I know more and have travelled more and have lived more in arab countries than you have. I also have worked in Islamic publishing, know shariah scholars such as Yusuf Estes and Sirwaj Wahaj and I am very very familiar with several different cultures inside the Islamic community. I have seen the tragic results of children being abducted to north africa and the children unable to reunite with their American mother. I have also seen with my own eyes, several women used for papers, losing their money, their homes, their kids to american parents and the arab men they married

.. For you to take this personally is your problem Its not about you . Its about being realistic. Which frankly , if you marry for LOVE, sometimes its hard to be. this board has women on here who's husbands just woke up and left with no warning after the woman spent 2 years petitioning him... I have seen women 4 months after the guy gets here begin abusing her, and the woman after a year in ap, thousands of dollars is left in a tailspin. For this subject NOT to be discussed is criminal . Its not all sunshine and roses in the MENA forum and frankly I like you green eyed girl . You are very very very articulate and well spoken but you yourself did not petition your husband until recently for whatever reason. You have also been very active in somehow holding yourself up as some kind of cultural ambassador which is a load of ####### . So you married a moroccan. So you are of arab descent. These 2 factors do NOT make the reality for some of these women disappear.. Frankly, I would have married my husband anyway even knowing the things i do. I would also encourage women to follow their hearts.... But for them to not walk into this face foward with their eyes straight foward actively questioning their spouses, asking the right questions and financially and emotionally protecting themselves... oh hell no. I have seen women lose their houses and a friend of mine with 2 little kids has 2 kids under 5 in Tunisia she cannot bring home. Its important for anyone marrying someone from mena to know family law in the country of their spouse and what constitutes a legitamate marriage. Its important for them to learn the arabic dialect from that region so they can understand telephone conversations and to know where they stand so they can watch for things and know what is up ahead. Regardless of anything that you say. ....there are some amazing relationships that have age disparity and they last. But much more frequently the man is passing le service militair and will leave within 3 years of getting his status. This is a harsh sad reality but its critical that the woman go into these marriages with the knowledge of all the possibilities, her finances protected, that she keep her circles of friendships strong OUTSIDE the mena community so when she is being played, someone else can help her and she can keep her head straight..

I always question now motives and the attitudes behind why people say and do what they do. I Never took this stance when i first began to live in Mena. I do now because I am very very aware of how critical my american friends are to my happiness and well being. I have made the mistake before of NOT looking behind things. I am married to someone younger than me and carrying his child and trust me, there are many many many things that you do not know green eyed girl, arab or not. I wish I would have known much that I do now 8 years ago. I would have loved anyway I think. Whether I would have loved with the abandon that i do now... I really dont think so. I would have been looking a little bit more with my head and less with my heart and done a little bit more research into what would be best for me in the long run...

be realistic green eyed girl.. Love is fine.... Coaching women into blindness and stupidity is just irresponsible on your part...

IF an arab would not marry you in his own culture ( divorced, kids, other issues, age) motivations always have to be looked at. Sure , love comes into play but you are doing women a disservice perpetuating this mess that this huge age difference is somehow something that can be ignored. Its not saying that there is not love. It is not saying that there may not be sexual attraction. Do I think that some of these age disparity relationships will last? Yes. Most? Absolutely NO. And for a woman to not be emotionally prepared to get dumped is doing the woman a disservice. Its not to say she wont want to love the guy and have the relationship. But to NOT show her the flip side, is hiding a stark reality from her.

[sara535 15]

Wahrania the thing is that this topic has been beaten in to the ground on this forum already. I think the general consensus is that most people already KNOW this stuff.. We all agree that life and love come with no guarantees and frankly that people can be dishonest users from any country or culture. Its an unfortunate part of the game we call life.

ok, so your experiences have opened your eyes to some things you think others women should know. Thanks for sharing. but at some point your many many many posts on the subject just start to sound like a diatribe and quite honestly your self proclaimed expertise has become a little tired. I respect that you have clearly spent more time in that part of the world than I have but there are still things about Algeria and North Africa that you DONT know, you are not from there and not an expert and maybe you still have more to learn. its off putting when you need to throw your 'wisdom' around all the time. You've been there a lot and have a lot of cultural understanding, we get it! but listen, I have lived in America ALL my life and there are still PLENTY of things I dont know or understand about my own country! No one knows everything! so yes, share your views, but open up a little and acknowledge that maybe just maybe you dont have a lock on 100% of all the truth and MAYBE you can learn something from the other people here too.... Its not a competiton to see who knows more about the north african socio-economic cultural mindset.

We are all just here because we happened to meet and fall in love with someone from another part of the world and now we are trying to navigate our way through the crazy bureaucratic minefield known as US immigration. so maybe just try giving it a little bit of a rest....?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well, wahraina, you don't know much about Arabs and Muslims, it's true. It's clear that you know little POSITIVE about either of them since your threads generally tend to express negativity; your general view of life, it seems. Your little corner of the world is a sad place to be, not to mention, frozen in time and perspective.

Since you insist on presenting yourself as a self-styled insta-scholar about Arabs and Islam, you believe that gives you the right to toss about stereotypes and dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as less Arab and less knowledgable than you fancy yourself to be. Your view of yourself as less desirable and less valuable than younger women and your inherent distrust of Arabs and Islam is your problem and should not be allowed to be elevated into the only way to see either, and then projected onto everyone else.

Whether you like it or believe it or not, I am not just a "non-first generation Arab" (whatever the hell that is); your attempts to dismiss me and my views as less than credible because my mother was in the US when I was born is silly and self-serving. The fact that you would dismiss me that way shows that yor mentality is that if one isn't backwards and patriarchal in their thinking, one cannot possibly be fully Arab or Muslim. That is limited and perjorative thinking toward both groups on your part.

I have a deeper and more positive perspective that has validity, and does not merely grow out of a single relationship with a foreign man. Lord knows why, since you have so many reservations about Arabs, you became involved with an Arab man in the first place! When you present Arabs and Arab families in the less than honorable way you do, you not only cast doubt on people like my family members, you also open the door to stereotypes about western norms.

Perhaps you are struggling for a way to lift the cloud and doubts you seem to have about your status with your man and his family, but to paint all Arabs as monolithic in their thinking and culture, and then blame it on Islam does no one, western or Arab, good service. Make your psychological angst someone else's burden. It doesn't belong to any Arab, and the women here don't deserve your expectations that it become theirs.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Wahrania the thing is that this topic has been beaten in to the ground on this forum already. I think the general consensus is that most people already KNOW this stuff.. We all agree that life and love come with no guarantees and frankly that people can be dishonest users from any country or culture. Its an unfortunate part of the game we call life.

ok, so your experiences have opened your eyes to some things you think others women should know. Thanks for sharing. but at some point your many many many posts on the subject just start to sound like a diatribe and quite honestly your self proclaimed expertise has become a little tired. I respect that you have clearly spent more time in that part of the world than I have but there are still things about Algeria and North Africa that you DONT know, you are not from there and not an expert and maybe you still have more to learn. its off putting when you need to throw your 'wisdom' around all the time. You've been there a lot and have a lot of cultural understanding, we get it! but listen, I have lived in America ALL my life and there are still PLENTY of things I dont know or understand about my own country! No one knows everything! so yes, share your views, but open up a little and acknowledge that maybe just maybe you dont have a lock on 100% of all the truth and MAYBE you can learn something from the other people here too.... Its not a competiton to see who knows more about the north african socio-economic cultural mindset.

We are all just here because we happened to meet and fall in love with someone from another part of the world and now we are trying to navigate our way through the crazy bureaucratic minefield known as US immigration. so maybe just try giving it a little bit of a rest....?

sara, on this point,the delivery is off but the message is very relevant.. watch...be careful, learn as much of the language as you ca, hope for the best and be prepared for the worst. Algeria is not the high fraud consulate that Morocco is for several reasons. It is difficult to get to Algeria, difficult and time consuming to get a visa, internet is not as readily as available and there is not a huge community of Algerians here to gravitate to once the so is here.Moroccans on the other hand have a lot of experiecnce in the USA (take a look at the original posting) and have been navigating immigration here for a while. They know the ropes and how to help each other establish themselves, get legal even find wives for people back home... that includes introducing single available American women to "friends' back home....It becomes almost a game to find out exactly why someone wants to befriend you because I can guarantee you everyone going back is asked to find a wife for someone...

Here Sarah is a very funny article written by a Moroccan. I am sure you will find it very funny

An American Wife for my Brother….

"Why don't you send your brother an American wife?" pleaded my mom when I last talked to her on the phone. "What? An American what?" I asked in total disbelief. My mom went on to explain: "You know awlidi, God did not sehhel (make it easy in Moroccan Arabic in order for him to pass his third year at the university. Now he is contemplating suicide (allah yehfed), and you are his only hope.

"Mom," I replied calmly, "what does God have to do with it? Why do we always blame it on God? May be it was my brother's fault." "Beg forgiveness and don't blaspheme, son. This is mektoub." "Well, then if it is mektoub for him to come to America, he will make it when it's time for him," I said. "Stop being too logical and philosophical. I am your mother after all", my mom replied in a melancholy voice. "Well, what do you want me to do, mom? Didn't I send him all kinds of papers from here, but he was refused a visa twice? What else can I do? Do you think I don't want him to come here?" "Well, may be because that's what all his friends are telling him", my mom said in a quick, yet soft voice, as if she did not want me to hear her remark.

I was a bit annoyed by the remark, but I did not let it get to me, and I chose not to say anything is response. This gave my mom the chance to elaborate further: "I know you love your brother and wish him only el-khir, but our neighbor, your brother's best friend, just got married to an American woman that his brother brought him from America." "OK, let me talk to my brother, please mom", I begged. "No, he asked me to talk to you about this because he is shy."

Now, my younger brother is a university drop out. He is an honest, hard-working, God-fearing young man who for the third time has failed his third year at university. I guess it was that damned African literature and its disillusioned teacher that conspired to make him fail the oral exam. Now, his only goal in life is to leave his mother's house and head north or west of Morocco.

My mom says every relative and every neighbor tells her that I should finish el-khir that I started. In other words, I should keep sending the monthly allowance, yet make the extra effort: finding an American woman who would be willing to travel to Morocco to marry my brother so he can get a visa stamp on his passport.

This whole thing of finding a wife for my brother is a mystery to me. If other people have done it before and have succeeded at it, and it appears that they have, then I am a total failure in the eyes of everyone back home. How come the oldest brother who is living and working in America, making millions probably, is not "man" enough to find a woman for his brother? How in the world did such an ineffective wimp manage to go there in the first place?

Well, I guess I will just have to live with it, that is a wimp who does not deserve to be here in the first place. In the meantime, I will keep sending the monthly allowance, keep loving my brother and hoping that someday he will find a way out! As to the American wife, well all I can do is take my hat off in respect and admiration to those who have found wives for their brothers. THEY are the real MEN!

[*JG* 2]

And the sad thing is there's a woman somewhere that will go with this BS!

I actually found this post on a berber forum. i read it , read it again and was kind of shocked to see it in writing

but let me tell you a flip side. I actually know of one moroccan guy who married for papers, got his american wife pregnant and had a moroccan girlfriend on the side from back home. The moroccan guy decided he loved the "fat american" and decided to stay with her much to the furor of the moroccan girl.

I posted this post because I thought it gave a little insight into the perception of American women by SOME not all Moroccan women and how they view cross cultural marriages. The weirdness comes into play when the "man" does NOT leave the '"greencard" after he gets his papers. Then it becomes a guessing game for the "native" girls as to why he stayed the course with the "greencard".

Its perplexing to some North Africans when the SO stays with the person who sponsored them and does NOT return home and marry one of their own. Love really does rule sometimes, yes... and when it does its confusing often to those who thought they knew the score.....

I can't imagine being married to a man such as this. I don't care if he decided later that he loved me and chose to stay with me. The fact is that his morality is low enough that he would use a woman for a green card with the intent of breaking her heart in the end. A man like that is dispicable in my eyes.

I imagine that the majority of women here that were initially approached by her SO was already aware of the fact that he may only want a green card. I certainly didn't give my husband a chance to win my heart until I was sure that his intentions were sincere.

There are usually signs to this, and the smart women will watch for those signs. One of the prime examples was the man not wanting to take his wife back to visit Morocco. To be seen in public with her.

The thing is that it comes from all cultures, even here in the US. And it isn't just the old fat women that are the victims. It is any one that is lacking in self confidence. I have known some beautiful women that didn't have self confidence that was used and manipulated by men. Imagine her confidence level after that!

But not every relationship is for a green card, and I have seen my share of true love with several members of this forum. And I am 100% sure that when they deny petitions such as ours it is because they don't believe the relationship is real and they know that the ones that aren't will never make it through the process. In fact, when of the CO's in Morocco stated that "You would be surprised at the amount of returned petititions that don't come back to us".

Anyone who doesn't believe this happens is truly diluting the truth.

I have seen men using their wives take them back to the home country. thats no reassurance of anything. The woman that I talked about before went their several times. If everyone is in the know that she is just his ticket out, they will play the game.

I am pregnant with my husbands baby and I can guarantee you that several of his family members are NOT happy because our marriage in their eyes was for his papers and for him to better his life. In fact, I believe this wholeheartedly and i am NOT UGLY or looks deprived but i know enough about my husbands culture to know the score. when a girl who is pretty and 26 and divorced cannot find a man to marry her because everyone wants a virgin with no kids, how can I NOT have it in the back of my mind that as a divorced woman with kids, that I am second choice and second best and the beauty mark that I have is my us passport.

and I am pregnant guys... and even I have to accept reality. Walking you around is not proof of a damn thing. How is heart feels and how is family deals with you is a much stronger indicator.

Arabs want kids. They want wives who can give them kids. But even I PReGNANT with his baby have major doubts about his family s perception and eventual acceptance of me and my baby. I know all of this sounds harsh but this is NOT AmericAN society.

We are talking about a society where unwed mothers put their babies in orphanages and where virginity is really a premium. Whether you want to face it or not, you need to look how women are treated in terms of how they are looked at in the usa. In the usa you can reinvent yourself if you sleep around,,,,, there... absolutely NO. The rules are completely different than here. Its been a heartbreaking reality for me to accept,,,,, but I have had to and after 8 years around north africans, I have had to swallow alot of my feelings and deal with strictly reality.... Looks and age matter....some to more and less to others... There is NO guarantee that the man will stay with you in the long run

I realize this is your reality and I would never bash you for any of it. If I felt even a smidgeon like any of this, I would not have married my husband.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You consistantly play this ARAB card and you are as much of an arab as I am. You are a 3 rd generation I am going to guess, lebanese or palestinian descent arab living in the USA who somehow holds yourself up as some kind of scion of arab culture.I beg to say that indeed I know more and have travelled more and have lived more in arab countries than you have. I also have worked in Islamic publishing, know shariah scholars such as Yusuf Estes and Sirwaj Wahaj and I am very very familiar with several different cultures inside the Islamic community. I have seen the tragic results of children being abducted to north africa and the children unable to reunite with their American mother. I have also seen with my own eyes, several women used for papers, losing their money, their homes, their kids to american parents and the arab men they married

If we were in competition, this would not even be a challenge to me. Despite whatever experience you have, it has served you poorly, for you have taken away little to help you deal with the negativity you consistantly post to us. You can assume that I sat around the house and knitted all day, every day while you traveled and met scholars, but you'd be very wrong. I'm not even going to go there. You are so needing to legitimize yourself as THE expert. No one can possibly know as much or more than you, been as many or more places than you, or know more Muslims or Arabs than you do. It's not worth it to me to compare myself to you as to whom is more worthy of having an opinion. Being among Arabs or Muslims hasn't taught you much. It certainly hasn't taught you haya. Others are still worthy despite your incessant need for validation and assurance.

You're the only expert here. I concede the floor. You know it all, God help you.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Well, wahraina, you don't know much about Arabs and Muslims, it's true. It's clear that you know little POSITIVE about either of them since your threads generally tend to express negativity; your general view of life, it seems. Your little corner of the world is a sad place to be, not to mention, frozen in time and perspective.

Since you insist on presenting yourself as a self-styled insta-scholar about Arabs and Islam, you believe that gives you the right to toss about stereotypes and dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as less Arab and less knowledgable than you fancy yourself to be. Your view of yourself as less desirable and less valuable than younger women and your inherent distrust of Arabs and Islam is your problem and should not be allowed to be elevated into the only way to see either, and then projected onto everyone else.

Whether you like it or believe it or not, I am not just a "non-first generation Arab" (whatever the hell that is); your attempts to dismiss me and my views as less than credible because my mother was in the US when I was born is silly and self-serving. The fact that you would dismiss me that way shows that yor mentality is that if one isn't backwards and patriarchal in their thinking, one cannot possibly be fully Arab or Muslim. That is limited and perjorative thinking toward both groups on your part.

I have a deeper and more positive perspective that has validity, and does not merely grow out of a single relationship with a foreign man. Lord knows why, since you have so many reservations about Arabs, you became involved with an Arab man in the first place! When you present Arabs and Arab families in the less than honorable way you do, you not only cast doubt on people like my family members, you also open the door to stereotypes about western norms.

Perhaps you are struggling for a way to lift the cloud and doubts you seem to have about your status with your man and his family, but to paint all Arabs as monolithic in their thinking and culture, and then blame it on Islam does no one, western or Arab, good service. Make your psychological angst someone else's burden. It doesn't belong to any Arab, and the women here don't deserve your expectations that it become theirs.

Green eyed girl, you of all people, with no timeline for over a year on display, should be the first to admit that BALLAK ( be aware and careful) is wise and sage advice.

I don't find myself less desirable but I sure as hell will not allow myself to be deluded yes I said DELUDED into thinking that as older and divorced, I am the first choice for an arab muslim man. Their culture places a high price on virginity and purity and NOT HAVING a past. My husband really loves me but he is NOT from a traditional family. His mother was battered by her husband and horribly mistreated and she raised her children alone. I have been exposed to much more traditional families and rest assured,,,,, they want a young, age correspondant woman for their son...IT IS NOT THE NORM TO MARRY SOMEONE SUBSTANTIALLY OLDER. Its painful to hear this. Sometimes the relationships work out. But more often THEY DO NOT . The western woman needs to be prepared for every outcome and stand strong through it. Their are tons of exceptions but the reality is I think its sage advice to learn the language and always be aware of what is going on around you. Know family law ( if you are thinking about having kids)know conversational arabic. Pay attention to the people around you. Ballak. Then love the best you can and try to be happy.

You know that I am right on target and your arabness has NOTHING to do with greencard fraud, manipulation and women NOT protecting themselves in the long run. There are people posting on this board that could offer some sage advice from experience. I wish they would post their experiences...Some of their wounds from being screwed over are a little too new but I am hoping they do..

[*JG* 2]

I think it is always a good idea to talk about the good and bad of international marriages. Everyone, regardless of their expertise in the area, has experiences, opinions, and sometimes rumors to share. I never think it is a bad idea to forwarn those who come after all of us of the possibilities that exist.

I have taken many bashings for negative experiences I have aired publically. (If you want proof, look back at some of my old posts!) I will never apologize for saying what I've said. The words and warnings were and are relevant and since they are my very own experiences, I don't give a flying @$%* what anyone else has to say about them. I am entitled to my opinion.

That being said, I believe in the goodness, honesty, and respect of my husband. I would go through it all over again for him and I have no doubts about our relationship.

Generalization and steretypes are one thing, experiences are another.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Green eyed girl, you of all people, with no timeline for over a year on display, should be the first to admit that BALLAK ( be aware and careful) is wise and sage advice.

What my lack of a timeline has to do with anything, I don't know. I do know this sage advice, if you believe you will fail, you will. You seem to believe you will fail in your relationship and/or that others will fail. What others are telling you is that they can assess their relationships for themselves, they don't need your constant warnings.

Please try to spend more of your time shoring up your own less than certain feelings about your own marriage and your man instead of foisting your doubts on everyone else. While there are failures in marriage and duplicitous motivations in all cultures, it is the responsibility of each of us to evaluate and nuture our relationships for ourselves.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Green eyed girl, you of all people, with no timeline for over a year on display, should be the first to admit that BALLAK ( be aware and careful) is wise and sage advice.

What my lack of a timeline has to do with anything, I don't know. I do know this sage advice, if you believe you will fail, you will. You seem to believe you will fail in your relationship and/or that others will fail. What others are telling you is that they can assess their relationships for themselves, they don't need your constant warnings.

Please try to spend more of your time shoring up your own less than certain feelings about your own marriage and your man instead of foisting your doubts on everyone else. While there are failures in marriage and duplicitous motivations in all cultures, it is the responsibility of each of us to evaluate and nuture our relationships for ourselves.

BALLAK

be aware of everything around you and trust in Allah

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

$100 on geg/vw

[doodlebugg 10]

$100 on geg/vw

I'll see your $100 and raise you $50. Geg's got it goin' on.

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

$100 on geg/vw

I'll see your $100 and raise you $50. Geg's got it goin' on.

i'll see your $50 and raise you $100 more

[RAKASA 0]

$100 on geg/vw

I'll see your $100 and raise you $50. Geg's got it goin' on.

Who's the bookie and where do I ante up? You know who my $$ is on!