I-751 / Divorce circus show

[Wiks 3]

4 minutes ago, mindthegap said:

If that was not the case at the time of joint filing, then at interview if called, or when it is final.

Anything else is a) not legally required, and b) playing with fire timeline wise. Trust me, you do not want to go through a denial and the hassles it causes. 

 

If you you have a 100% definite window circa 90 or days before your divorce being made final then by all means write and inform them of the switch and await the RFE for it (which may come quickly, or slowly but you MUST respond to with the final divorce), but caveat emptor. 

That makes sense to me. Notifying them when you start the divorce process means 95% denial considering you won't get final papers on time. 

[Boiler 43,666]

I remember a similar situation coming up on Hacking YT not that long ago.

 

In fact I think it was someone who really screwed themselves and somebody else who was still in process and had been separated and divorce not initiated 

 

The obvious solution here is not file to naturalise, I do not see the dates coming up if you stay a LPR

 

I know Hacking prefers to refile when divorce happens but my understanding you can change to a Divorce waiver

 

He also thinks USCIS could well interview the ex spouse and is keen on getting in first and getting a support affidavit.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Boiler

[Mobius1 175]

36 minutes ago, Boiler said:

I remember a similar situation coming up on Hacking YT not that long ago.

 

In fact I think it was someone who really screwed themselves and somebody else who was still in process and had been separated and divorce not initiated 

 

The obvious solution here is not file to naturalise, I do not see the dates coming up if you stay a LPR

 

I know Hacking prefers to refile when divorce happens but my understanding you can change to a Divorce waiver

 

He also thinks USCIS could well interview the ex spouse and is keen on getting in first and getting a support affidavit.

According to Hacking, file a new I-751 solo even though I have the previous one approved. This is so weird, feels like a bad dream...

[Boiler 43,666]

22 minutes ago, Mobius1 said:

According to Hacking, file a new I-751 solo even though I have the previous one approved. This is so weird, feels like a bad dream...

 YT like VJ you do not get all the details, and he was musing what to  do in that particular  case, obviously no 2 cases are identical and you for example  have not filed to naturalise, pretty sure that guy had and the discussion was what to do. Or what might needed to be done. Of course it could all sail through, but if somebody looked at the dates....

 

Now I think of it there was another one sometime back that was much more blatant, this guy had filed for his wife back home, so had removed conditions without an interview and had actually remarried before he got his 10 year GC. So he had multiple issues, and I think he was talking about Naturalising without considering all the other problems he had. There is an issue if you remarry within a certain time of getting your original GC.

[Rocio0010 5,572]

5 hours ago, Wiks said:

That makes sense to me. Notifying them when you start the divorce process means 95% denial considering you won't get final papers on time. 

On the other hand, it’s a good way to leave a paper trail that at least you tried. Watch today’s Hacking show, there was a very similar case and that’s the first thing he said. 
Anyhow, for OP it’s too late for that, so either filing a new one solo or just stay a LPR might be the only choices.

[Rocio0010 5,572]

3 hours ago, Boiler said:

know Hacking prefers to refile when divorce happens but my understanding you can change to a Divorce waiver

No, he talks about divorce waivers all the time.

[Rocio0010 5,572]

2 hours ago, Boiler said:

Now I think of it there was another one sometime back that was much more blatant, this guy had filed for his wife back home, so had removed conditions without an interview and had actually remarried before he got his 10 year GC. So he had multiple issues, and I think he was talking about Naturalising without considering all the other problems he had. There is an issue if you remarry within a certain time of getting your original GC.

I remember that case and actually Hacking lost it with the guy! Hahahahaha. I’ve been trying to watch it again but I cannot find it. It’s epic.

[Mobius1 175]

51 minutes ago, Rocio0010 said:

On the other hand, it’s a good way to leave a paper trail that at least you tried. Watch today’s Hacking show, there was a very similar case and that’s the first thing he said. 
Anyhow, for OP it’s too late for that, so either filing a new one solo or just stay a LPR might be the only choices.

I was that case hacking was talking about. Reached out to him via his show. Not too many unfortunate souls that got screwed over by inept lawyers.

 

While obviously arguing with USCIS won’t be fruitful but one thing that makes me think is nowhere in the law does it say I need to inform of a pending divorce. A final divorce before case is decided, for sure.

What I also didn’t get was, how can one apply again for solo I-751 when a joint is already approved. I know he meant to have a paper trail recorded before n400 but I don’t think it will work.

 

Insanity in this unclear set of laws is all that can be said

[Rocio0010 5,572]

17 minutes ago, Mobius1 said:

While obviously arguing with USCIS won’t be fruitful but one thing that makes me think is nowhere in the law does it say I need to inform of a pending divorce. A final divorce before case is decided, for sure.

I found something relevant on the second page of the document you posted. I can’t copy it from my phone, but it says that USCIS may not deny an i751 just because the divorce proceedings have been started, but that divorce may indicate marriage fraud. As you can see, the language is extremely vague, but I interpret it as Jim told you today in the show: that USCIS may argue that it could be misrepresentation because by not informing them of the divorce, you shut down a line of inquiry. 
However, on the other hand, the definition of material misrepresentation in terms of immigration is: you lied to obtain an immigration benefit that would be unattainable otherwise. For example, a fraud marriage. One can argue that you being divorced and telling them wouldn’t not have necessarily prevented you from getting a green card.

One thing is for sure, the rules for this type of situation should be clearer.

[Villanelle 4,121]

16 hours ago, Mobius1 said:

I think at the end it boils down to how lawyer A translates the guidance differently than lawyer B.

 

While the safer bet is to have it amended, memo also says that separation / initiation of divorce proceedings isn't a basis for denial, as shown in the screen grab from the memo (https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/i-751_Filed_ Prior_Termination_3apr09.pdf)

 

Technically, one is still married until the day the judge issues a final dissolution of marriage. For my part, I kept trying until the end to save that marriage.

 

I am not saying this to make myself feel better but perhaps find guidance for someone who might be in the same position.

 

Either ways, I have already spent my good years being worried about these insanely harsh and convoluted immigration laws. I will take whatever the fate brings and be happy with it.

 

 

Please read the bit you highlighted again. You are putting great effort to highlight the bits you want, I mean you literally highlighted it lol! But you completely ignore the next sentence which begins with an important 'however'. 

 

It is not up to you to evaluate your bonafides. And yes in case of separation they may not deny it SOLELY because of the pending divorce.  HOWEVER being in divorce proceedings may suggest you entered the marriage benefits. 

 

A lot of 'may' and 'soley' in the above right? Again neither of those terms are up to YOU to determine if they apply. USCIS can't make a valid decision about the facts of the case if they don't have them.  Its your burden to give them the facts. Yes, I understand many take issue with such as you previously posted bits about where does it say to disclose such changes etc etc. But let's put a pin in that for now..

 

When divorce was filed did either of you move out of the joint home? Did you update your addresses? Were other various things you submitted as joint evidences separated? Phone plans, utilities, what about your joint bank accounts/credit cards? You mentioned a child so what about child support? Basically you want to look at that period of time between the filing and the approval. 

 

These are all things that could trigger the n400 interviewing Officer to realize you had an undisclosed separation prior to approval.  Not to mention divorce paperwork usually includes bits about who filed and when. 

 

Now of course I am familiar with mindthegaps story as many here are. And I don't fault him for suggesting avoiding making waves. What he is and has been going through is a shame. But I can not support advice telling people to not make waves. Sometimes life is messy and waves get made. It can't be avoided. For those in this situation making waves is unavoidable. You just want to try not to make a big splash is all..

 

You should have notified them when it was filed. You could have notified them immediately upon approval and they might have been able to add it to the records or reopen it. But at this point I don't believe that is still an option nor would be to refile. 

 

So what happens now? You can choose to remain an LPR and will most likely never have this come up again unless you file for something someone in the future. 

 

You can file for n400. You may be denied. That's fine. I mean obviously awful but not the end of the world. Being denied for n400 doesn't automatically revoke your GC.

 

But you can also be denied and they can choose to revoke the 751 approval.  You would need to refile the 751 in that case.  This would be unlikely to happen as from my understanding there are a variety of people who get caught in the system for a variety of reasons. Basically they ended up with a GC thats determined to be approved incorrectly so they can't get the new benefit but USCIS takes no action to revoke it.  They either have to live in such limbo or repeatedly demand USCIS revokes it so they can get it processed correctly.  It seems doing such revocations is low priority for USCIS..

 

If you choose to apply for citizenship and it's denied then your next step would be determined by the contents of the denial. You or rather your attorney may be able to make a case as you outlined that the 751 approval was valid, no misrep, etc. You should probably hire an attorney for the n400 who can also accompany you to the interview and is ready with case law and policy,  you may be able to avoid the whole review-deny-appeal circus. 

 

Hold on to any and all evidences related to the 751 you still have and make an effort to obtain what you are missing as many places only keep records for limited periods of time. 

[Mobius1 175]

50 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

It is not up to you to evaluate your bonafides. And yes in case of separation they may not deny it SOLELY because of the pending divorce.  HOWEVER being in divorce proceedings may suggest you entered the marriage benefits. 

Trust me, I wanted to go ahead an inform them of the pending divorce but its me vs 5 so called "experts in immigration" lawyers that told me to keep my mouth shut.

 

Yes, at the end it doesn't impact them as much as it would impact me. But this is what we are left to trust and work with.

 

USCIS can investigate  all  my marriage aspects from the start to filing and approval, I have all the evidence needed. 

 

It is indeed sad that I may not be able to apply for n400 due to a grey area in the law which can be used to interpret whoever holds power.

 

I am consulting more lawyers besides hacking to see what, if any, options are available.

 

Some of my past consults with lawyers and their responses :

 

1. "I would not hurry up with the divorce, inform USCIS only after the divorce decree is in hand. File FOIA to obtain the file and you will know if your soon-to-be-ex filed anything in your joint I-751 petition case."
2. "We would likely await the filing of the divorce and the decree. Separation is not a basis to deny an I-751."
3. "Wait until you have the final decree in hand and transfer the case to a waiver based filing."
4. "Without an interview a misrepresentation might not be made where the divorce was not finalized.

 

[Villanelle 4,121]

4 minutes ago, Mobius1 said:

Trust me, I wanted to go ahead an inform them of the pending divorce but its me vs 5 so called "experts in immigration" lawyers that told me to keep my mouth shut.

 

Yes, at the end it doesn't impact them as much as it would impact me. But this is what we are left to trust and work with.

 

USCIS can investigate  all  my marriage aspects from the start to filing and approval, I have all the evidence needed. 

 

It is indeed sad that I may not be able to apply for n400 due to a grey area in the law which can be used to interpret whoever holds power.

 

I am consulting more lawyers besides hacking to see what, if any, options are available.

 

Some of my past consults with lawyers and their responses :

 

1. "I would not hurry up with the divorce, inform USCIS only after the divorce decree is in hand. File FOIA to obtain the file and you will know if your soon-to-be-ex filed anything in your joint I-751 petition case."
2. "We would likely await the filing of the divorce and the decree. Separation is not a basis to deny an I-751."
3. "Wait until you have the final decree in hand and transfer the case to a waiver based filing."
4. "Without an interview a misrepresentation might not be made where the divorce was not finalized.

 

I am sorry you are going through this. The thing with notifying them about a pending divorce is theres not a one size fits all answer. So I assume the various advice you got was given by different attorneys at different times. So yes, I can see how each statement above can be accurate but at the same time not. It's about the context around it. Ideally yes, one wants the decree in hand when advising them.  This is not always possible though and attorneys tend to avoid the 'what ifs' as they deal with 'what is' if that makes sense. 

 

 

[Mobius1 175]

4 minutes ago, Villanelle said:

I am sorry you are going through this. The thing with notifying them about a pending divorce is theres not a one size fits all answer. So I assume the various advice you got was given by different attorneys at different times. So yes, I can see how each statement above can be accurate but at the same time not. It's about the context around it. Ideally yes, one wants the decree in hand when advising them.  This is not always possible though and attorneys tend to avoid the 'what ifs' as they deal with 'what is' if that makes sense. 

 

 

My current lawyer that filed the i751 is so sure of this not being an issue. Just spoke to her today and conveyed my concerns. She’s like, “yeah they may grill you a little as to why suddenly after approval the divorce became final. But you have a good case and evidences to overcome any fraud suspicion”

 

If I chose to take the risk, I should take that lawyer along in the interview. Heck now an interview without a lawyer is a very bad idea 

[Crazy Cat 39,512]

17 hours ago, Mobius1 said:

As per his words (pretty senior officer there), "Even if this marriage is fake, it was real at one point to produce a child"

Absurd. 

[Boiler 43,666]

I had not watched Hacking yesterday so here it is, No 2.

 

No 1 is interesteting and a comment about Lawyers, well some Lawyers, EB1 for a guy who sells stuff on Etsy?

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Boiler