N600 application

reginaglenn · October 25, 2020

Hi everyone,

Been in the United States for seven years now. My son is already a US citizen through me (he was k2) . He got his US passport when he was under 18. Now that he is almost 20 years old, I am planning to apply for his own citizenship certificate. Is it recommended to have his own certificate? and is it the N600 application? Thanks.

Regina

JeanneAdil · October 25, 2020

Not needed

he became a citizen thru you and a US passport is proof (when you become a citizen)

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter-2

Congress has enacted laws that determine how U.S. citizen parents convey citizenship to children born outside of the United States. Generally, you may obtain citizenship through your U.S. citizen parents when you are born, or after your birth but before you turn 18.Jul 8, 2020

Mike E · October 25, 2020

27 minutes ago, reginaglenn said:

Hi everyone,

Been in the United States for seven years now. My son is already a US citizen through me (he was k2) . He got his US passport when he was under 18. Now that he is almost 20 years old, I am planning to apply for his own citizenship certificate. Is it recommended to have his own certificate? and is it the N600 application? Thanks.

Regina

He will need a certificate of citizenship for some situations: situations where primary evidence of citizenship is required. A passport is not primary evidence. These include and are probably not limited to:

* Private sector jobs requiring a security clearance.

* Certain jobs in the federal government

* Petitioning a relative for immigration

* Online voter registration in some states (can be done in person with a passport)

I used to think that those in your son’s situation who lost their passports and all other ID would need a certificate of citizenship to restored all their documents. But it turns out the department of state has a process for this. You pay more money but if you’ve ever had a passport or passport card, you can get it replaced without any ID. Makes sense for US citizens abroad who have been robbed or kidnapped.

It is better that your son do this now rather than later when the trail of evidence grows colder. He will need your naturalization certificate (send a copy not the original, but if there is an interview the original will be needed to show because TIU: this is USCIS). He will also need your copies of his birth certificate, your green card, and if your name on your naturalization certificate differs from your name on his birth certificate, your change of name document (probably your marriage certificate). Send copies and verified translations of these with the N-600. Bring originals to the interview.

SteveInBostonI130 · October 25, 2020

29 minutes ago, Mike E said:

A passport is not primary evidence.

This is NOT correct.

A valid US passport is always primary evidence. It is typically first in any list of primary evidence options.

@reginaglenn

A naturalization or citizenship certificate is good to have as backup, like if your son ever lost his passport and needs a new one.

A couple years after 9/11, I had to cross when my passport expired. So I brought my naturalization certificate to cross. The CA side only wanted to see my DL. On the return, the US agents wanted to see my certificate. He gave me a bit of a hard time, because the photo on the certificate was from when I was 9. He first asked if I had a more recent version, then said "next time get one with a current photo". I don't think he understood the purpose of the certificate or that it doesn't expire. Oh well.

Edited October 25, 2020 by SteveInBostonI130
typo

Mike E · October 25, 2020

17 minutes ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

This is NOT correct.

A valid US passport is always primary evidence. It is typically first in any list of primary evidence options.

Obviously not since you cannot use a US passport to get a certificate of citizenship.

17 minutes ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

@reginaglenn

A naturalization or citizenship certificate is good to have as backup, like if your son ever lost his passport and needs a new one.

No. If you lose your passport, as I wrote before, you can pay a fee to State to replace your passport without providing primary evidence. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html Search for “File Search”

17 minutes ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

On the return, the US agents wanted to see my certificate.

US citizens walking to the USA from Canada don’t actually need any documents. It does make the wait time in secondary inspection longer. As a CBP officer wrote recently:

It’s the law. It’s called the constitution.

reginaglenn · October 25, 2020

Thank you guys for your time! Stay safe and healthy..

ThaOne · October 25, 2020

4 hours ago, reginaglenn said:

Hi everyone,

Been in the United States for seven years now. My son is already a US citizen through me (he was k2) . He got his US passport when he was under 18. Now that he is almost 20 years old, I am planning to apply for his own citizenship certificate. Is it recommended to have his own certificate? and is it the N600 application? Thanks.

Regina

https://www.uscis.gov/forms/explore-my-options/proof-of-citizenship-for-us-citizens

Eligibility

You are a U.S. citizen if you have a:

Birth certificate showing birth in the United States;
Form N-550, Certificate of Naturalization;
Form N-560, Certificate of Citizenship;
Form FS-240, Report of Birth Abroad of United States Citizen; or
Valid unexpired U.S. passport.

SteveInBostonI130 · October 25, 2020

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

Obviously not since you cannot use a US passport to get a certificate of citizenship.

Actually, obviously YES , even according to your link , https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html :

For both US citizens born in the US and outside the US, the list shows US passport as first in primary evidence of US citizenship.

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

No. If you lose your passport, as I wrote before, you can pay a fee to State to replace your passport without providing primary evidence. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html Search for “File Search”

Technically, you can. But secondary evidence is a lot more complicated to show.

It is much easier to show them the citizenship/naturalization certificate than all of the above.

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

US citizens walking to the USA from Canada don’t actually need any documents. It does make the wait time in secondary inspection longer. As a CBP officer wrote recently:

It’s the law. It’s called the constitution.

A Reddit Post? Are you serious?

How do you think CBP can verify that a person walking to the USA form Canada is a US citizen? Of course the person needs to show proof of citizenship. Please stop giving bad advice. Here is the official CBP site: https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-3618?language=en_US

Mike E · October 25, 2020

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

Actually, obviously YES , even according to your link , https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html :

For both US citizens born in the US and outside the US, the list shows US passport as first in primary evidence of US citizenship.

I was referring to evidence of citizenship needed to get a certificate of citizenship via an N-600. A passport is useless for that. A passport is not primary evidence of citizenship.

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

Technically, you can. But secondary evidence is a lot more complicated to show.

It is much easier to show them the citizenship/naturalization certificate than all of the above.

A file search doesn’t require any documents at all. The reason is that a passport was already issued. State has a record of the passport.

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/passports/content-page-resources/Template- Request a File Search.pdf

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

A Reddit Post? Are you serious?

A reddit post from a CBP Officer as opposed to a visa journey post?

yes I am serious.

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

How do you think CBP can verify that a person walking to the USA form Canada is a US citizen?

Easily. And it happens every day.

For one thing a citizen who was formerly an LPR is the easiest to verify. CBP enters some biographical info into a database search and finds a matching former LPR. The citizen’s fingerprints are then scanned and compared to the biometrics on file.

Ditto anyone who has GE or Nexus. Programs which also collect fingerprints.

The TSA does it every day and it isn’t a law enforcement agency. Since TSA can verify identity without photo ID obviously CBP, as law enforcement agency in DHS, can verify citizenship after verifying identity. It might take a while. It might require detention overnight. But citizens who insist they are citizens will always be admitted unless ICE can convince an judge the claimant is not a citizen.

A citizen cannot legally be removed from the territory of the US. A land port of entry into the USA is within the territory of the USA.

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

Of course the person needs to show proof of citizenship. Please stop giving bad advice.

Right back at you.

1 minute ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

Here is the official CBP site: https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-3618?language=en_US

Yes that list is false. There might even be laws that mandate that list. And those laws are not constitutional.

I know this from the experience of people who have crossed the border between Canada and USA the USA with just a US DL and US BC.

And also from CBP officers that post in forums like reddit.

SteveInBostonI130 · October 25, 2020

4 minutes ago, Mike E said:

I was referring to evidence of citizenship needed to get a certificate of citizenship via an N-600. A passport is useless for that. A passport is not primary evidence of citizenship.

No, you stated a certificate of citizenship is primary evidence, and a US Passport is not:

6 hours ago, Mike E said:

He will need a certificate of citizenship for some situations: situations where primary evidence of citizenship is required. A passport is not primary evidence. These include and are probably not limited to:

* Private sector jobs requiring a security clearance.

* Certain jobs in the federal government

* Petitioning a relative for immigration

* Online voter registration in some states (can be done in person with a passport)

If you are now stating that US Passport is not primary evidence because it cannot be used to get a certificate of citizenship for a N600 application, then someone needs a certificate of citizenship to obtain a certificate of citizenship? How does that work?

Also, in all 4 of the cases you mentioned, a valid US passport is accepted as proof of citizenship.

4 minutes ago, Mike E said:

A file search doesn’t require any documents at all. The reason is that a passport was already issued. State has a record of the passport.

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/passports/content-page-resources/Template- Request a File Search.pdf

A file search works only if the person knows the previous passport number and expiration date, as well as endorsement stamps. If not, then the normal method must be used, which requires other evidence.

4 minutes ago, Mike E said:

A reddit post from a CBP Officer as opposed to a visa journey post?

yes I am serious.

Easily. And it happens every day.

For one thing a citizen who was formerly an LPR is the easiest to verify. CBP enters some biographical info into a database search and finds a matching former LPR. The citizen’s fingerprints are then scanned and compared to the biometrics on file.

Ditto anyone who has GE or Nexus. Programs which also collect fingerprints.

The TSA does it every day and it isn’t a law enforcement agency. Since TSA can verify identity without photo ID obviously CBP, as law enforcement agency in DHS, can verify citizenship after verifying identity. It might take a while. It might require detention overnight. But citizens who insist they are citizens will always be admitted unless ICE can convince an judge the claimant is not a citizen.

A citizen cannot legally be removed from the territory of the US. A land port of entry into the USA is within the territory of the USA.

Right back at you.

All the above you posted is showing evidence of citizenship. And prior to GE, Nexus, and enhanced ID driver license, the method to show citizenship without a passport was with a US BC or certificate of naturalization.

The choice is not between Reddit and VJ. The choice is between Reddit and CBP website. You propose that official CBP website''s list of documents required to cross the border is "false" and that a person should just be detained until some other means is utilized to verify citizenship identity. I propose to use the CBP guidelines and present the documents they request.

Yes, a citizen cannot be removed from the territory of the US. But a person can be detained until proof of citizenship is determined. I would prefer not to be detained.

Mike E · October 25, 2020

31 minutes ago, SteveInBostonI130 said:

No, you stated a certificate of citizenship is primary evidence, and a US Passport is not:

you took a single sentence out of context. And how you are picking that as a Hill to Die On

He will need a certificate of citizenship for some situations: situations where primary evidence of citizenship is required. A passport is not primary evidence. These include and are probably not limited to:

* Private sector jobs requiring a security clearance.

* Certain jobs in the federal government

* Petitioning a relative for immigration

* Online voter registration in some states (can be done in person with a passport)

Everything I’ve written in that content is correct. You decided to not challenge me on the specific context and instead decided to challenge me on something out of context. You are wrong. And what you did to me was wrong.

Quote

If you are now stating that US Passport is not primary evidence because it cannot be used to get a certificate of citizenship for a N600 application, then someone needs a certificate of citizenship to obtain a certificate of citizenship? How does that work?

Go read an the N-600 forms and instructions.

Or maybe read my post:

It is better that your son do this now rather than later when the trail of evidence grows colder. He will need your naturalization certificate (send a copy not the original, but if there is an interview the original will be needed to show because TIU: this is USCIS). He will also need your copies of his birth certificate, your green card, and if your name on your naturalization certificate differs from your name on his birth certificate, your change of name document (probably your marriage certificate). Send copies and verified translations of these with the N-600. Bringoriginals to the interview.

Quote

Also, in all 4 of the cases you mentioned, a valid US passport is accepted as proof of citizenship.

Nope. For one thing at my wife’s AOS interview, my passport and and $5 was worth a cup of coffee to her IO. He wanted my naturalization certificate.

For the voting issue:

Here is one counter example that addresses the remaining two of my cases.

Quote

A file search works only if the person knows the previous passport number and expiration date, as well as endorsement stamps

The form I cited doesn’t ask for endorsement stamps and regardless you haven’t cited any information that says a person had to know the particulars of the passport.

In any case there is a simple remedy: make copies of your documents when you get them.

Quote

All the above you posted is showing evidence of citizenship. And prior to GE, Nexus, and enhanced ID driver license, the method to show citizenship without a passport was with a US BC or certificate of naturalization.

And it still is. Before COVID Americans were crossing the border with a DL and BC and they will again.

Quote

The choice is not between Reddit and VJ. The choice is between Reddit and CBP website. You propose that official CBP website''s list of documents required to cross the border is "false" and that a person should just be detained until some other means is utilized to verify citizenship identity. I propose to use the CBP guidelines and present the documents they request.

My friends and I just do what we want. Versus running it pass you for proposal.

Quote

Yes, a citizen cannot be removed from the territory of the US. But a person can be detained until proof of citizenship is determined. I would prefer not to be detained.

bully for you. Hopefully you will always have your passport. Accidents happen though.

last word is yours.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Mike E

SteveInBostonI130 · October 26, 2020

32 minutes ago, Mike E said:

you took a single sentence out of context. And how you are picking that as a Hill to Die On

He will need a certificate of citizenship for some situations: situations where primary evidence of citizenship is required. A passport is not primary evidence. These include and are probably not limited to:

* Private sector jobs requiring a security clearance.

* Certain jobs in the federal government

* Petitioning a relative for immigration

* Online voter registration in some states (can be done in person with a passport)

Everything I’ve written in that content is correct. You decided to not challenge me on the specific context and instead decided to challenge me on something out of context. You are wrong. And what you did to me was wrong.

Go read an the N-600 forms and instructions.

This all started with the statement that a US passport is not primary evidence (of citizenship). I countered that a US passport is, in actuality, primary evidence.

Then form N-600 was the justification that a US passport is not primary evidence. And yet, again, incorrect. Form N-600 instructions:

What Evidence You Must Submit:

...

6. Proof of U.S. Citizenship. Examples of this are birth certificates showing birth in the United States; a Form N-550, Certificate of Naturalization; a Form N-560, Certificate of Citizenship; a Form FS-240, Report of Birth Abroad of United States Citizen; or a valid unexpired U.S. passport.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/n-600instr.pdf, page 9.

51 minutes ago, Mike E said:

* Petitioning a relative for immigration

Form I-130, Petition for Alien Relative, Instructions:

3. What documents do you need to show that you are a U.S. citizen?

A. A copy of your birth certificate, issued by a civil registrar, vital statistics office, or other civil authority showing that you were born in the United States;

B. A copy of your naturalization certificate or certificate of citizenship issued by USCIS or the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS);

C. A copy of Form FS-240, Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA), issued by a U.S. Embassy or U.S. Consulate;

D. A copy of your unexpired U.S. passport; or

E. An original statement from a U.S. consular officer verifying that you are a U.S. citizen with a valid passport.

If you do not have any of the above documents and you were born in the United States, see the What if an official document is not available section of these Instructions

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-130instr.pdf, page 6.

The other examples you listed are cases where evidence in addition to a US passort was required, or where local systems were not designed correctly to accept US passport information. And the one example where the US passport was not enough for employment was that the person verifying identity was new at the job and wasn't "100 percent sure" that it was enough.

What is odd is that the second disagreement stemmed from me requiring a DL and my naturalization certificate to cross the US-Canada border, which you stated was not required. And the example given by you, when I stated that a person must show proof of citizenship, is that a DL and BC is all that is needed. Which is what I did (I don't have a BC, so I showed the certificate), that you said was not required....

These posts keep sidetracking in the issue. I do agree with one thing you alluded to earlier - do not go by a VJ post. Go by official US government information, where the US passport is listed as primary evidence of citizenship:

https://www.uscis.gov/forms/explore-my-options/proof-of-citizenship-for-us-citizens

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html

HRQX · October 26, 2020

2 hours ago, Mike E said:

I know this from the experience of people who have crossed the border between Canada and USA the USA with just a US DL and US BC.

Some have crossed without carrying ID. The CBP officer says, "We cannot deny US citizens the right to come into the United States." https://youtu.be/1FB1FTXwGLw?t=2237

Mike E · October 26, 2020

21 minutes ago, HRQX said:

Some have crossed without carrying ID. The CBP officer says, "We cannot deny US citizens the right to come into the United States." https://youtu.be/1FB1FTXwGLw?t=2237

But but but but .... that’s just a YouTube channel. Those people claiming to be CBPOs could just be actors.

/s

HRQX · October 26, 2020

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

A citizen cannot legally be removed from the territory of the US.

And when the government messes up big time the government gets sued:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speakeasy/us-citizen-wrongfully-deported-mexico-settles-his-case-against-federal-government "Lyttle will receive $175,000 for the suffering he endured after being detained by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), who deported him despite ample evidence that he was a U.S. citizen." "he was able to secure a passport and return to the United States in April 2009. Even then, ICE officials at the Atlanta airport detained him for six days and attempted to remove him again."

https://www.newsday.com/news/nation/leonel-ruiz-to-get-32-500-in-settlement-over-daughter-s-detention-deportation-officials-say-1.10605312 "sent back to Guatemala -- despite her U.S. citizenship -- will receive $32,500 in damages to settle a lawsuit over the matter"

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N600 application

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