South Carolina woman kills escaped jail inmate who kicked down her door, sheriff says

[Dashinka 23,206]

I guess it was a good thing she wasn’t required to keep her personal protection unloaded and locked up.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/south-carolina-woman-kills-escaped-jail-inmate-who-kicked-down-her-door-sheriff-says

[Chris Duffy 1,256]

I love a story with a happy ending.

[bcking 3,157]

How do we balance these sorts of events (which I agree, happy ending for me as well) with the other end?

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/indiana/articles/2018-12-04/indiana-girl-dies-after-accidental-shooting-by-brother-3

 

At the very least when you have young children, there is a very real serious risk of accidental death for your children. 

 

I'm not sure how we get the best of both worlds? Maybe with technology? Finger-print locking guns? Don't those exist, or am I thinking of James Bond?

Edited December 5, 2018 by bcking

[bcking 3,157]

Not sure where the best source of event data is for both types of events. Does anyone have a website that keep track of all of the "personal protection" events like this one?

 

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/accidental-shooting

 

This has accidental shootings, though doesn't just limit it to the home. At least for children, something like 85% of accidental shootings occur in the home (from a different source).

[Dashinka 23,206]

7 minutes ago, bcking said:

How do we balance these sorts of events (which I agree, happy ending for me as well) with the other end?

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/indiana/articles/2018-12-04/indiana-girl-dies-after-accidental-shooting-by-brother-3

 

At the very least when you have young children, there is a very real serious risk of accidental death for your children. 

 

I'm not sure how we get the best of both worlds? Maybe with technology? Finger-print locking guns? Don't those exist, or am I thinking of James Bond?

Education.  I know many people including many in my family that have grown up around guns, were taught to respect the power of a gun, and were taught how to use them at a young age.  Kids will not learn how to do this in pre-school, or in elementary school, but if a parent is proactive with their children and actually see themselves as the primary teacher of their children, then things usually turn out well.  Is it perfect, no, because people are not perfect, but it is better than being killed by a criminal.

[bcking 3,157]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

Education.  I know many people including many in my family that have grown up around guns, were taught to respect the power of a gun, and were taught how to use them at a young age.  Kids will not learn how to do this in pre-school, or in elementary school, but if a parent is proactive with their children and actually see themselves as the primary teacher of their children, then things usually turn out well.  Is it perfect, no, because people are not perfect, but it is better than being killed by a criminal.

That sounds lovely in theory. Would love to see it actually studied. I have some doubts about successfully educating young children, but would love if it was that simple.

 

From what I can tell looking around for sources there are about (very rough) 100 homicides related to buglaries per year. So if we armed all of those people with guns, perhaps we could stop 100 deaths (though the success rate would likely be less than 100%). 

 

There are so far over 180 accidental shootings involving a young child in 2018. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/29/american-toddlers-are-still-shooting-people-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/

 

On average someone gets shot by a toddler once a week. Having worked with children and studied their development, I have my doubts about whether just education will keep toddlers from playing with deadly objects they find. Not saying I don't want more education, but I feel if that is going to help it will help more in the older adolescent population (which is itself an issue as well).

 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

Having grown up in households where guns were always present, and often loaded, I think it is a simple task to keep them out of the hands of toddlers.  Closet shelves and top drawers of dressers come to mind. I know I never held a gun in my hand as a toddler unless an adult had unloaded it and allowed me to touch it.  And having owned my first gun at the age of 7, and being allowed to go out and hunt alone with it, I held much respect for guns and life.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

2 hours ago, bcking said:

That sounds lovely in theory. Would love to see it actually studied. I have some doubts about successfully educating young children, but would love if it was that simple.

 

From what I can tell looking around for sources there are about (very rough) 100 homicides related to buglaries per year. So if we armed all of those people with guns, perhaps we could stop 100 deaths (though the success rate would likely be less than 100%). 

 

There are so far over 180 accidental shootings involving a young child in 2018. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/29/american-toddlers-are-still-shooting-people-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/

 

On average someone gets shot by a toddler once a week. Having worked with children and studied their development, I have my doubts about whether just education will keep toddlers from playing with deadly objects they find. Not saying I don't want more education, but I feel if that is going to help it will help more in the older adolescent population (which is itself an issue as well).

 

Not sure where you got your stat from, but the BJS says that of the 3,700,000 burglaries annually, about 12% involve a firearm.  That’s 444,000 armed robberies.  And those are only the stats where a person was home when the robbery occurred, which leads one to surmise the use of firearms is even higher.

 

I do realize your number was an actual homicide, not just facing an armed robber.  Still 

 

Another factoid when talking about gun deaths is that the majority are suicides.

 

 

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm

 

ETA: I see some of those WaPo stories involve a toddler finding a loaded gun in a house or car of someone who doesn’t have kids.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Satisfied

[Dashinka 23,206]

2 hours ago, bcking said:

That sounds lovely in theory. Would love to see it actually studied. I have some doubts about successfully educating young children, but would love if it was that simple.

 

From what I can tell looking around for sources there are about (very rough) 100 homicides related to buglaries per year. So if we armed all of those people with guns, perhaps we could stop 100 deaths (though the success rate would likely be less than 100%). 

 

There are so far over 180 accidental shootings involving a young child in 2018. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/29/american-toddlers-are-still-shooting-people-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/

 

On average someone gets shot by a toddler once a week. Having worked with children and studied their development, I have my doubts about whether just education will keep toddlers from playing with deadly objects they find. Not saying I don't want more education, but I feel if that is going to help it will help more in the older adolescent population (which is itself an issue as well).

 

There is also a responsibility of the gun owner, you cannot fix stupid.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

In 2007-11, about 1% of nonfatal violent crime victims used a firearm in self defense In 2007-11, there were 235,700 victimizations where the victim used a firearm to threaten or attack an offender (table 11). This amounted to approximately 1% of all nonfatal violent victimizations in the 5-year period. The percentage of nonfatal violent victimizations involving firearm use in self defense remained stable at under 2% from 1993 to 2011 (not shown in table). In 2007-11, about 44% of victims of nonfatal violent crime offered no resistance, 1% attacked or threatened the offender with another type of weapon, 22% attacked or threatened without a weapon (e.g., hit or kicked), and 26% used nonconfrontational methods (e.g., yelling, running, hiding, or arguing).

 

In instances where the victim was armed with a firearm, the offender was also armed with a gun in 32% of the victimizations, compared to 63% of victimizations where the offender was armed with a lesser weapon, such as a knife, or unarmed (not shown in table). A small number of property crime victims also used a firearm in self defense (103,000 victims or about 0.1% of all property victimizations); however, the majority of victims (86%) were not present during the incident. No information was available on the

number of homicide victims that attempted to defend themselves with a firearm or by other means.

from the top of page 12, https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

[bcking 3,157]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

There is also a responsibility of the gun owner, you cannot fix stupid.

There is a responsibility for parents as well, and it can be neglect if they put their child in danger unnecessarily.

 

I'm all for adults storing firearms loaded in a drawer if they live alone and have to think about only themselves. Would I do it in that situation? No, but they are adults.

 

When you are a parent though sometimes you have to do things for your children that you wouldn't otherwise do. Is it I convenient for me to cover all my electrical outlets and put childlocks on drawers? Of course it is. But I'm not just going to rely on "educating" my toddler and hoping for the best.

 

1 hour ago, Satisfied said:

Not sure where you got your stat from, but the BJS says that of the 3,700,000 burglaries annually, about 12% involve a firearm.  That’s 444,000 armed robberies.  And those are only the stats where a person was home when the robbery occurred, which leads one to surmise the use of firearms is even higher.

 

I do realize your number was an actual homicide, not just facing an armed robber.  Still 

 

Another factoid when talking about gun deaths is that the majority are suicides.

 

 

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm

 

ETA: I see some of those WaPo stories involve a toddler finding a loaded gun in a house or car of someone who doesn’t have kids.  

Ya I was using a statistic regarding howany homicides were from burglaries. I don't doubt your stats on armed robbery.

 

Absolutely the majority of gun deaths are suicides, and people with easy access to firearms have about a 3x higher rate of suicide.

 

There are many issues involving firearms, which all need attention and unfortunately are somewhat like a seesaw. If we discuss one in a vacuum I just worry we ignore and potentially exacerbate others. Suicide and accidental deaths.

 

It is easy to say just give everyone a gun and there will be no burglary homicides, but I worry about the impact on childhood mortality and suicides. Not to mention the third issue that has gained attention recently - well-meaning citizens trying to be the "Good guy" and getting killed by police as a result.

[bcking 3,157]

5 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

In 2007-11, about 1% of nonfatal violent crime victims used a firearm in self defense In 2007-11, there were 235,700 victimizations where the victim used a firearm to threaten or attack an offender (table 11). This amounted to approximately 1% of all nonfatal violent victimizations in the 5-year period. The percentage of nonfatal violent victimizations involving firearm use in self defense remained stable at under 2% from 1993 to 2011 (not shown in table). In 2007-11, about 44% of victims of nonfatal violent crime offered no resistance, 1% attacked or threatened the offender with another type of weapon, 22% attacked or threatened without a weapon (e.g., hit or kicked), and 26% used nonconfrontational methods (e.g., yelling, running, hiding, or arguing).

 

In instances where the victim was armed with a firearm, the offender was also armed with a gun in 32% of the victimizations, compared to 63% of victimizations where the offender was armed with a lesser weapon, such as a knife, or unarmed (not shown in table). A small number of property crime victims also used a firearm in self defense (103,000 victims or about 0.1% of all property victimizations); however, the majority of victims (86%) were not present during the incident. No information was available on the

number of homicide victims that attempted to defend themselves with a firearm or by other means.

from the top of page 12, https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

Great source of data there. Do they have the data for fatal cases? I was talking about homicides and my number certainly could have been wrong. On my phone at the vet so it's harder to sift through the document.

 

What I find sad is the reporting data on page 12 - only 60 something percent gets reported to police. While that is the majority, 40% is a huge number to screw with statistics.

Edited December 5, 2018 by bcking

[Dashinka 23,206]

1 hour ago, bcking said:

There is a responsibility for parents as well, and it can be neglect if they put their child in danger unnecessarily.

 

I'm all for adults storing firearms loaded in a drawer if they live alone and have to think about only themselves. Would I do it in that situation? No, but they are adults.

 

When you are a parent though sometimes you have to do things for your children that you wouldn't otherwise do. Is it I convenient for me to cover all my electrical outlets and put childlocks on drawers? Of course it is. But I'm not just going to rely on "educating" my toddler and hoping for the best.

 

Ya I was using a statistic regarding howany homicides were from burglaries. I don't doubt your stats on armed robbery.

 

Absolutely the majority of gun deaths are suicides, and people with easy access to firearms have about a 3x higher rate of suicide.

 

There are many issues involving firearms, which all need attention and unfortunately are somewhat like a seesaw. If we discuss one in a vacuum I just worry we ignore and potentially exacerbate others. Suicide and accidental deaths.

 

It is easy to say just give everyone a gun and there will be no burglary homicides, but I worry about the impact on childhood mortality and suicides. Not to mention the third issue that has gained attention recently - well-meaning citizens trying to be the "Good guy" and getting killed by police as a result.

I still think it comes down to education.  I was reading a study done by Johns Hopkins that said medical malpractice is the third highest cause of death annually in the US behind heart issues and cancer.  How do we combat that?  I would say education of the doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc.  The fact is there are many tools that people use regularly that can kill or injure others that are not properly educated, a gun is no exception.  As I said, there is no perfect solution, and accidents will happen, now maybe if you took away all the guns....

[bcking 3,157]

15 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I still think it comes down to education.  I was reading a study done by Johns Hopkins that said medical malpractice is the third highest cause of death annually in the US behind heart issues and cancer.  How do we combat that?  I would say education of the doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc.  The fact is there are many tools that people use regularly that can kill or injure others that are not properly educated, a gun is no exception.  As I said, there is no perfect solution, and accidents will happen, now maybe if you took away all the guns....

Specifically for accidental childhood homicides though, education may really just not work. You can't teach a 4 year old to "respect firearms" and know not to touch them when adults are not around. If they find it, they'll touch it. If it's loaded, it doesn't take that much before it turns bad.

 

As for medical malpractice (I know it's not the topic of this discussion), that study had massive flaws. The actual data was also from a very small area that was then extrapolated to the other entire population, and then multiplied by 3 or 4 times arbitrarily because they "assumed underreporting". Also, just saying the solution is "education" is incredibly simplistic to the point of not being helpful (I mean no offense by that). Doctors, nurses, pharmacists. We are all educated A LOT. In school, in our daily work. The vast majority of medical errors typically aren't actually a result of not "knowing" some fact due to lack of education. 

 

Back to this issue though. Education sounds great and I'm all for it. As a Pediatrician though I still would never advocate for a family with young children to keep guns loaded in an unlocked drawer. There is reasonable observational data to suggest that it is more dangerous for their family from the standpoint of accidental shootings and successful and no good data to suggest that having the gun in the bedside table significantly improves their safety. Even if their children were teenagers I would have serious doubts and worries if their solution was just to "make sure the kids are educated and taught to respect firearms". Teenagers can be "taught" all sorts of things, and then forget it all when other kids are around. It is just too easy for teenagers to think that the "bad consequences" won't happen to them, no matter how much education they get.

 

As I said before if an adult is living alone, then they can do what they want. Though they should disclose they keep firearms loaded in an unlocked location if someone ever brings a child over their house. 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

11 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

I guess it was a good thing she wasn’t required to keep her personal protection unloaded and locked up.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/south-carolina-woman-kills-escaped-jail-inmate-who-kicked-down-her-door-sheriff-says

 

   You are never required to lock and secure your guns on your own private property. When you are on someone elses property or public property, you may be subject to someone elses rules. That's the way it is.