Carson equates slaves to immigrants, social media blasts comment

[OriZ 3,165]

1 hour ago, bcking said:

My problem with what he said wasn't that he called them immigrants. Don't know if anyone has pointed out, but Obama referred to slaves as immigrants before as well. I agree with what others are saying that technically they shouldn't really be considered immigrants because an immigrant should be taking the action themselves out of free will to move to a country. Being kidnapped and forced to live somewhere else is not "immigration". However I can understand the point he was trying to make, as you mention. In the end they were immigrants because when given the power to choose they stayed.

 

My problem was that he spoke as if they also had an "American Dream" when they came here. I think that is an insult to the people brought over as slaves. They weren't on those ships "dreaming of opportunity and a better life". Their "better life" was back at home. They were going to hell.

I think while it may have come across that way, what he meant was essentially that they had those hopes and dreams once they were here, it was worded poorly, like Trump or Kellyann before, but at the end of the day between the 3 I think way too much energy is being wasted on talking about what they said rather than what they meant. I just find it to be a waste of time, which is why it took me a while to comment in this thread to start with, and why I'm just about already done with it.

[OriZ 3,165]

51 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

Under your act utilitarianism view, and in an alternate fact reality, you could also say that the concentration camps in Europe were workshops where many jews learned or improved a skill that helped them succeed in the post-war world; after all, it's not where they started, but where they ended up, that really counts. 

Yeah lets compare people who already lived in those places and were put in camps in order to be exterminated, to people who were brought over to the US in order to be slaves. Slavery was horrible, but Jews were not immigrants, not even later on, they already lived there, and camps cannot be compared to salvery, sorry, this comparison is beyond ludicrous. 

[OriZ 3,165]

53 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

Yup. People are so bored these days I tell ya.

[CaliCat 3,957]

3 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Yeah lets compare people who already lived in those places and were put in camps in order to be exterminated, to people who were brought over to the US in order to be slaves. Slavery was horrible, but Jews were not immigrants, not even later on, they already lived there, and camps cannot be compared to salvery, sorry, this comparison is beyond ludicrous. 

 

Of course the comparison is ludicrous! I was following your logic.

[smilesammich 10,727]

2 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Yeah lets compare people who already lived in those places and were put in camps in order to be exterminated, to people who were brought over to the US in order to be slaves. Slavery was horrible, but Jews were not immigrants, not even later on, they already lived there, and camps cannot be compared to salvery, sorry, this comparison is beyond ludicrous. 

i don't find it ludicrous. jews were shipped around against their will to whatever camp they were going to and families split a part, same as slaves. i don't understand why this comparison upsets you.

[OriZ 3,165]

26 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

Funny enough, the MDRs are the one twisting themselves bent out of shape to try and make the concept of slavery fit into the definition of immigration. It's a commendable attempt, but one that falls short anyway.

 

By the same alternate fact logic, the concentration camps provided employment, shelter, and food, for many who would otherwise have been unemployed, destitute, and homeless, during the war.

 

Equating the process of enslavement and immigration is a long stretch. Some positions are indefensible, such as is the case of Mr. Carson's in this matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, they were given so much food they just couldn't handle it anymore.

 

 

 

Heh, I'm gonna go get some work done and when I'm back I think I'll stick with other threads. 

[CaliCat 3,957]

10 minutes ago, OriZ said:

I think while it may have come across that way, what he meant was essentially that they had those hopes and dreams once they were here, it was worded poorly, like Trump or Kellyann before, but at the end of the day between the 3 I think way too much energy is being wasted on talking about what they said rather than what they meant. I just find it to be a waste of time, which is why it took me a while to comment in this thread to start with, and why I'm just about already done with it.

 

Wrong again. Slaves had no dreams or hopes, because for the most of their lives there was no statute that would change their condition. They were born in slavery, lived in slavery, and died in slavery. Their perspective was as hopeful and filled with dreams as those of the jews in concentration camps, I am sure.

 

There was nothing they could do to change their situation. They were not master of their own lives, they owned nothing but servitude.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by CaliCat

[smilesammich 10,727]

slaves had hopes and dreams once they were here? yeah, in the same fashion jews had hopes and dreams as they waited in camps to die.

[CaliCat 3,957]

Just now, OriZ said:

Yup, they were given so much food they just couldn't handle it anymore.

 

 

 

Heh, I'm gonna go get some work done and when I'm back I think I'll stick with other threads. 

 

You're making such a big ado about nothing.

[CaliCat 3,957]

Just now, smilesammich said:

slaves had hopes and dreams once they were here? yeah, in the same fashion jews had hopes and dreams as they waited in camps to die.

 

History is irrevocably lost in some people. It's no wonder it tends to repeat itself. 

[bcking 3,157]

8 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Yeah lets compare people who already lived in those places and were put in camps in order to be exterminated, to people who were brought over to the US in order to be slaves. Slavery was horrible, but Jews were not immigrants, not even later on, they already lived there, and camps cannot be compared to salvery, sorry, this comparison is beyond ludicrous. 

OriZ,

 

I'm sure you know this but Jews WERE moved around against their will. Many of them, by Carson's definition, would be considered "immigrants" of Poland when they were moved to Auschwitz. Yes Poland wasn't a country, but neither was the USA when many slaves were shipped over and yet we now want to refer to the slaves as "immigrants" to the US.

 

I agree with you IN PART that we spend too much time focusing on what people say. I stop agreeing you when I take a look at how often these sorts of "Oh but they meant this other thing" issues come up. Eventually if people can't actually say what they mean they need to shut up and let other people speak for them.

[smilesammich 10,727]

if we're just going to focus on the word immigrant, we're basically towing carson's misrepresentation of reality. i think it was brought up earlier in this thread, or maybe i read it somewhere else but, this isn't the first time carson has gone on about slaves and the american dream. slaves were brought here as property, and while i'm sure they all had hopes and dreams, trying to twist the desire to be reunited with family or to not be raped repeatedly as a breeder or for the pain of whippings to soften or the memories of friends and family killed/beat in front of you to go away..surely these aren't the hopes and dreams carson is trying to sell as the 'american dream'. that's setting a pretty low bar.

[Dakine10 5,452]

13 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Yup, they were given so much food they just couldn't handle it anymore.

 

 

 

Heh, I'm gonna go get some work done and when I'm back I think I'll stick with other threads. 

  You just proved the point she was making. The label 'alternative fact logic' should have been the tip off.

[bcking 3,157]

15 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Yup, they were given so much food they just couldn't handle it anymore.

 

 

 

Heh, I'm gonna go get some work done and when I'm back I think I'll stick with other threads. 

*swoosh*

 

That's the sound of CaliCat's point going over your head.

[Dakine10 5,452]

57 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

You can twist it any way you want

    We can, but we'll never match your skill at that particular aspect of discussion.

 

    I have a feeling if Obama used wording anything like Carson did, you and your middle of the road buddies would have been trying to rip him a new one. You got 8 years of consistency backing that up.