I'm just curious how people feel about this

[almaty 19]

We put our blood, sweat, tears, and money...into doing it the right way.

A tad melodramatic, doncha think?

I don't recall bleeding, sweating or crying into the process.

I do recall paying application fees though.

how about groveling? or wait, that is after the visa is issued and the fiancee/wife is here...nevermind

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

steven, has it ever dawned on you that laws are in place for a reason? if they get bent and bent and bent just because a person thinks they are unjust, before too long you are on a slippery slope to anarchy. now maybe you feel good and warm inside about this invasion of illegals. i certainly don't.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

steven, has it ever dawned on you that laws are in place for a reason? if they get bent and bent and bent just because a person thinks they are unjust, before too long you are on a slippery slope to anarchy. now maybe you feel good and warm inside about this invasion of illegals. i certainly don't.

I'm not arguing that they aren't here 'illegally' or that it isn't a problem. But addressing the problem and coming up with solutions is going to take getting beyond the legality of who should or shouldn't be here. It's not a moral issue. People keep drumming that idea over and over again as if it is a moral crisis. Look at it for what it is, in terms of...

economic impact

national security

over-population

limited resources

I know we don't have an over-population problem, nor are we limited in resources because of illegals immigrants. I have yet to hear of any Mexican terrorist cells. Economic pact seems to be the only factor worthy of disussing with regard to illegal immigrants. And before we can tackle that issue we need to understand what is bringing them here beyond the shallow argument that it's because of our weak border security.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

steven, has it ever dawned on you that laws are in place for a reason? if they get bent and bent and bent just because a person thinks they are unjust, before too long you are on a slippery slope to anarchy. now maybe you feel good and warm inside about this invasion of illegals. i certainly don't.

I'm not arguing that they aren't here 'illegally' or that it isn't a problem. But addressing the problem and coming up with solutions is going to take getting beyond the legality of who should or shouldn't be here. It's not a moral issue. People keep drumming that idea over and over again as if it is a moral crisis. Look at it for what it is, in terms of...

economic impact

national security

over-population

limited resources

I know we don't have an over-population problem, nor are we limited in resources because of illegals immigrants. I have yet to hear of any Mexican terrorist cells. Economic pact seems to be the only factor worthy of disussing with regard to illegal immigrants. And before we can tackle that issue we need to understand what is bringing them here beyond the shallow argument that it's because of our weak border security.

steven, in case you've not figured it out....

-economic impact has been discussed up one side and down the other. on one hand you rant about increasing minimum wage, yet on the other you apparently support illegals who drive down that wage, how strange.

-national security? oh please, you and quite a few others have shown a complete lack of caring about national security. remember that discussion where so many were not concerned about classified information being leaked as it made bush look bad?

-over population? roflmao. and how many times do we hear about traffic problems? and rolled right into that is the next one below.

-limited resources - i suppose you think that water is endless? how many states have water rationing already? i know where my dad is in texas, they do.

but hey, that's all fine and dandy steven. i know you have it in your head you're gonna save/rescue everyone. fact is, you can't. but keep on trying, the windmills are right over there mr quixote. maybe you can have a few live with you too. i'm sure you're just that helpful to the cause

[Marc and Olga 0]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

steven, has it ever dawned on you that laws are in place for a reason? if they get bent and bent and bent just because a person thinks they are unjust, before too long you are on a slippery slope to anarchy. now maybe you feel good and warm inside about this invasion of illegals. i certainly don't.

I'm not arguing that they aren't here 'illegally' or that it isn't a problem. But addressing the problem and coming up with solutions is going to take getting beyond the legality of who should or shouldn't be here. It's not a moral issue. People keep drumming that idea over and over again as if it is a moral crisis. Look at it for what it is, in terms of...

economic impact

national security

over-population

limited resources

I know we don't have an over-population problem, nor are we limited in resources because of illegals immigrants. I have yet to hear of any Mexican terrorist cells. Economic pact seems to be the only factor worthy of disussing with regard to illegal immigrants. And before we can tackle that issue we need to understand what is bringing them here beyond the shallow argument that it's because of our weak border security.

steven, in case you've not figured it out....

-economic impact has been discussed up one side and down the other. on one hand you rant about increasing minimum wage, yet on the other you apparently support illegals who drive down that wage, how strange.

-national security? oh please, you and quite a few others have shown a complete lack of caring about national security. remember that discussion where so many were not concerned about classified information being leaked as it made bush look bad?

-over population? roflmao. and how many times do we hear about traffic problems? and rolled right into that is the next one below.

-limited resources - i suppose you think that water is endless? how many states have water rationing already? i know where my dad is in texas, they do.

but hey, that's all fine and dandy steven. i know you have it in your head you're gonna save/rescue everyone. fact is, you can't. but keep on trying, the windmills are right over there mr quixote. maybe you can have a few live with you too. i'm sure you're just that helpful to the cause

Well, for the most part, for a change, I agree with Charles and disagree with Steven!

Except for the whole national security thing, IF it was leaked "classified" information then I suggest someone find out who leaked it and take care of it, but as I have said, the "Key Judgements" were suppose to be unclassified from the day it was finished, as I understand an NIE anyway.

I don't believe we should be rewarding the illegals with free citizenship and I would be ok with a worker program but I still think the people that are here illegally should be punished (5 year, 10-year or lifetime ban). Also I believe if one were to come over on such a program they should be expected to learn and speak English while in publc. IF I were to plan on moving to non-English speaking country, I would expect to learn the local language and NOT expect that country to provide me with a translator/documents in English!

But that's just me!

Edited September 27, 2006 by Marc and Olga

[Fandango 1,439]

Hoo lawdy, not this again....

*straps in*

My answer to your original question would be...It depends. However, I do feel that the system to get people into the US is SO messed up. I live in Phoenix so I see illegals (mostly from Mexico and a few from Canada) every day. Mexico illegals normally do jobs that most American would not want to do. I would bet money that the company I hired to clean my pool, wash my car, and take care of my yard and garden are using illegal workers. There is obvious demand for the labor. What American would want to do that kind of work...especially in the 120 degree summers? Why not let them in if they want to work? As for the Canadians...I know of several retirees who work illegally in the US. They work for hardware stores, drug stores, or other 'box' stores offering advice to customers, working as cashiers, or just plain being helpful. They are working because they just want something to do.

Now...in both of these groups they are providing economic and commercial benefit to the community. Should they be sent home for that? There has been a lot of criticism of our governor (and NM's, CO's, and CA's governors) from other states of turning a blind eye to those who are in the US working illegally. The reality is that as long as they are working and productive, who cares?

Now...do we give them citizenship? Nope. You have to work for citizenship. Do it the right way. It is a special privilege to be from another country and to become a US citizen. Keep it that way.

Joel

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

Do you wear a cup when you ride the fence like this?

Oh, in case it's not clear...no, they shouldn't be granted citizenship, and NO they shouldn't be working here. Ship em back to whichever country from whence they came.

They should not stay here, but we should not 'economically benefit' from fraudulent workers either.

Edited September 27, 2006 by LisaD

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

have a nice trip, bon voyage!

ah it's nice to be native american

I have some native american in me as well, but my point is - come up with a better argument when talking about our illegal immigration problem than simply saying they are here illegally - like it's a moral issue.

steven, has it ever dawned on you that laws are in place for a reason? if they get bent and bent and bent just because a person thinks they are unjust, before too long you are on a slippery slope to anarchy. now maybe you feel good and warm inside about this invasion of illegals. i certainly don't.

I'm not arguing that they aren't here 'illegally' or that it isn't a problem. But addressing the problem and coming up with solutions is going to take getting beyond the legality of who should or shouldn't be here. It's not a moral issue. People keep drumming that idea over and over again as if it is a moral crisis. Look at it for what it is, in terms of...

economic impact

national security

over-population

limited resources

I know we don't have an over-population problem, nor are we limited in resources because of illegals immigrants. I have yet to hear of any Mexican terrorist cells. Economic pact seems to be the only factor worthy of disussing with regard to illegal immigrants. And before we can tackle that issue we need to understand what is bringing them here beyond the shallow argument that it's because of our weak border security.

steven, in case you've not figured it out....

-economic impact has been discussed up one side and down the other. on one hand you rant about increasing minimum wage, yet on the other you apparently support illegals who drive down that wage, how strange.

-national security? oh please, you and quite a few others have shown a complete lack of caring about national security. remember that discussion where so many were not concerned about classified information being leaked as it made bush look bad?

-over population? roflmao. and how many times do we hear about traffic problems? and rolled right into that is the next one below.

-limited resources - i suppose you think that water is endless? how many states have water rationing already? i know where my dad is in texas, they do.

but hey, that's all fine and dandy steven. i know you have it in your head you're gonna save/rescue everyone. fact is, you can't. but keep on trying, the windmills are right over there mr quixote. maybe you can have a few live with you too. i'm sure you're just that helpful to the cause

National Security my #######! If you want to talk about real national security issues then look at the 911 Commission Report and it's recommendations - then tell me how much of those recommendations are being implemented by the White House? Put aside the emotional rhetoric and base the argument on facts, not emotions.

Speaking of people who don't really care about our national security....with substance.

The federal government received failing and mediocre grades yesterday from the former Sept. 11 commission, whose members said in a final report that the Bush administration and Congress have balked at enacting numerous reforms that could save American lives and prevent another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

The 10-member bipartisan panel -- whose book-length report about the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks became a surprise bestseller -- issued a "report card" that included 5 F's, 12 D's and two "incompletes" in categories including airline passenger screening and improving first responders' communication system.

The group also said there has been little progress in forcing federal agencies to share intelligence and terrorism information and sharply criticized government efforts to secure weapons of mass destruction or establish clear standards for the proper treatment of U.S. detainees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5120500097.html

...but yes, we need to deal with these illegal mexicans here...they're high on the list of security risks...oye!

[ieldanth 0]

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

This already happens with multinational corporations, btw. We just don't ship them here.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

This already happens with multinational corporations, btw. We just don't ship them here.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

National Security my #######! If you want to talk about real national security issues then look at the 911 Commission Report and it's recommendations - then tell me how much of those recommendations are being implemented by the White House? Put aside the emotional rhetoric and base the argument on facts, not emotions.

obviously real national security, at least to you, has nothing to do with the documents we discussed earlier. and not only that, you blather on about emotional rhetoric right after you finish your obligatory bash of the white house (and by extension, bush). seriously dude, when you can talk about a subject without frothing at the mouth about bush, let me know. you'd like to blame bush for everything, yet you fail to realize that congress can override him!

Speaking of people who don't really care about our national security....with substance.

The federal government received failing and mediocre grades yesterday from the former Sept. 11 commission, whose members said in a final report that the Bush administration and Congress have balked at enacting numerous reforms that could save American lives and prevent another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

The 10-member bipartisan panel -- whose book-length report about the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks became a surprise bestseller -- issued a "report card" that included 5 F's, 12 D's and two "incompletes" in categories including airline passenger screening and improving first responders' communication system.

The group also said there has been little progress in forcing federal agencies to share intelligence and terrorism information and sharply criticized government efforts to secure weapons of mass destruction or establish clear standards for the proper treatment of U.S. detainees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5120500097.html

steven, this isn't what i'd really call news:

- congress balking at numerous reforms to save american lives and prevent terrrorist attacks.

- bad grades in passenger screening

- poor first responder communications

- lack of sharing intellingence between national agencies

- political turf battles between national intelligence level agencies

etc etc etc etc ad nauseum.

it's been that way for decades. why do you act like this is a startling revelation?

...but yes, we need to deal with these illegal mexicans here...they're high on the list of security risks...oye!

i also suppose it never occured to you that if jose and crew can make it thru the desert, so can anyone else? by extension, if we make the borders (in particular the southern one) secure, you just shut off one way a terrorist can get into the usa. or would you prefer to trust mexico's stellar accomplishments in the arena of law enforcement and immigration to catch every potential terrorists coming in from the south? if so, you're being a fool.

it should also be noted that about 65% of consumer spending accounts for the us gdp. and about 13 billion per year is flowing south out of the usa, i must wonder what that money would do for our own economy if it was spent here......... i know i know, you don't want to hear it, as that tends to interfere with your chosen mission of giving away the country to anyone who can get here illegally

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

My answer to your original question would be...It depends. However, I do feel that the system to get people into the US is SO messed up. I live in Phoenix so I see illegals (mostly from Mexico and a few from Canada) every day. Mexico illegals normally do jobs that most American would not want to do. I would bet money that the company I hired to clean my pool, wash my car, and take care of my yard and garden are using illegal workers. There is obvious demand for the labor. What American would want to do that kind of work...especially in the 120 degree summers? Why not let them in if they want to work? As for the Canadians...I know of several retirees who work illegally in the US. They work for hardware stores, drug stores, or other 'box' stores offering advice to customers, working as cashiers, or just plain being helpful. They are working because they just want something to do.

Now...in both of these groups they are providing economic and commercial benefit to the community. Should they be sent home for that? There has been a lot of criticism of our governor (and NM's, CO's, and CA's governors) from other states of turning a blind eye to those who are in the US working illegally. The reality is that as long as they are working and productive, who cares?

Now...do we give them citizenship? Nope. You have to work for citizenship. Do it the right way. It is a special privilege to be from another country and to become a US citizen. Keep it that way.

Joel

I guess up in Phoenix you lead a sheltered life, I live in southwest Tucson, much closer to the border and I see a much different picture, I see "hot dog" stands popping up all over my part of town (5 in 1- 5 mile stretch of road) that I would be willing to bet are operated by illegals, not a job I would want to do but certainly not a needed job, IMHO. I know people who would LOVE to have a job, ANY job even landscaping, washing cars or cleaning a pool or 2!

Heck pool cleaning cannot be too bad, I knew a guy that gave up a 40k/year job to do pool cleaning!

I say send them back, they came illegally, they KNEW they were coming illegal and NEVER let them come legally...if they come and have children, then their child can come BY THEMSELVES when they are 18+.

As for the "unwanted" jobs, I also feel that MORE enforcement is needed on hiring illegals, slap the 10s of thousands of dollars in fines on a company and I bet they would think twice before hiring another illegal or retaining the ones they have already!

I am sick of hearing these (illegal) "immigrant" groups crying that they deserve their rights when their first act in the US was an illegal act, that of entering in the first place! I am further sickened by the local paper stating that it won't end. BULLSHIRT, take away the jobs and they have no reason to come!

Of course with our government I highly doubt that will EVER happen!

Another thing I am sick of seeing is the pampering to the spanish speakers, this IS the USA (an ENGLISH speaking country) make everything in English.

In Russia, there is a big illegal immigrant problem but there the illegals HAVE to learn Russian or they will not survive, EVERYTHING is Russian!

But hey, that's just my little opinion!

I guess I see a more suppy and demand issue. Those hot dog stands are there because someone things they can make money. If they stay there then someone IS making money. Good for them! If they are illegal then I argue that they found a nitch that the legals were not able to find, or were not willing to take advantage of. As for spanish...if businesses didn't make money off of selling to the spanish speaking population then they would not produce items in spanish. SO that means that someone who is spanish speaking has money to buy items produced in spanish. I see that at pure capitalism, pure and simple. Money is being made and that is a good thing.

Joel

If someone wishes to come here and work, that is one thing. However, there should be delineated standards concerning what rights the state is willing to grant and a process by which the applicant can obtain permission to only come here and work. Anyone who comes here outside this process should be deported and banned from re-entry by any means. What we have now is little more than an invasion. Those in California are even demanding voting rights. If we are willing to enfranchise anyone who comes here, without even bothering with citizenship, then our government is subject to the whims of whatever nation can send sufficient numbers of people to affect an election.

That is kind of the problem. There is no easy way for people to come to the US to work. We NEED the cheap labour to keep our economic engine going. When my ancestors came THEY were that cheap labour (Irish and German in the coal mines). Now it is Mexico's turn. The differance is that they are not LEGAL to enter. The problem is that the work needs to be done and they are willing to do it. What is the solution?

Joel

[Fandango 1,439]

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

This already happens with multinational corporations, btw. We just don't ship them here.

Well as this pertains to illegal IMMIGRATION, I fail to see what that's gotta do with anything, lol